Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Just about all that you use to support your misplaced TULIP/DoG theology.
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Why Provisionism Is Not Biblical
- Thread starter Zaatar71
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Just about all that you use to support your misplaced TULIP/DoG theology.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
How is that Pelagianism? He said just what we see in scripture.
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
The person hears and responds to the gospel message. Where you error is that you have believed those calvinist teachers that say man has lost all ability to think, to reason and make real choices.
I do find it odd that you think man can choose to follow error but not the ability to actually trust in God.
Simple...You and your friend Leighton say that the natural man can know truth without the Spirit. Without the Supernatural new birth!
To say that is to deny the fall into sin and death.
I cor 2:14 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?
even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Silverhair, this passage is clear without the Supernatural Spirit of God, natural men CANNOT KNOW, the truth of God
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
What it seems you have overlooked is that Paul in 1Co was writing to believers. And as it turns out they were immature believers. Those he could not speak to as spiritual men but as infants in Christ. 1Co 3:1-3
This is the thrust of Paul's comments in 1Co 2:6-14. Paul is not speaking of unbelievers here but rather Christians that due to their lack of growth could not understand spiritual things.
He is not saying that the unsaved cannot understand the gospel message as you seem to think.
Consider this, if as you have posited the unbeliever, men of flesh, are the object of 1Co 2:14 then you have to admit that they can at least handle spiritual milk, then it would follow that the natural man can handle the word of God, the gospel.
If the natural man can handle the milk of the gospel, as the context shows, then the calvinist doctrine of Total Inability is called into question.
@Zaatar71 reading those verses in context, as proper study requires, shows that they do not support your view but rather point out the immaturity of the Corinthian believers.
FYI since I have never met L. Flowers I could not call him my friend. Nor do I agree with all that he has said. Although from what I have read or heard from him I can see why you do not like him as he points out the obvious errors found in the calvinist point of view.
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Silverhair, I hate to break it to you, but natural men are not Christians, They do not have the Spirit of God;Rom.8:
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
No, they cannot, Only Leighton Flowers, and van are the only two people on the planet who think that.
He cannot, the two passages declare he CANNOT...why would not believe the scripture here??
You need to wrestle with these two sections of scripture. You are not close on these. When and if you see it, then you will see the direction you need to go in,
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Having read through your post it is clear that you do not understand context or more likely you just ignore the words you do not like.
Read 1Co again slowly. Paul is writing to believers who have not matured. That is why they can as Paul says only handle spiritual milk. Since you are the one that claims that 1Co 2:14 is referring to natural man, and error which I pointed out to you, then logically those same men that Paul is writing to in 1Co 3 must be your natural men and as Paul said they can and have accepted spiritual milk, the gospel.
But even putting that aside why would you think man cannot accept the gospel message? That would mean that the great commission is just an exercise in beating at the air. It is of no use at all. Remember we are natural men prior to our trusting in God. Since God holds the natural man responsible for rejecting the gospel message it is obvious that your view is wrong. That is unless you think you know better than God.
Imagine that.
1st Corinthians Chapter 2
10 | But unto us God revealed them through the Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. |
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No..once again you are wrong . Paul is rebuking them, who profess faith, and telling them their conduct is like the unsaved natural man, They are not behaving as Real Believers who have the Spirit indwelling them. They are reacting,,,like the unsaved natural man who is devoid of the Spirit would!. If you cannot see this, I have my doubts about you my friend!
I cannot put aside when the bible says ...THEY CANNOT receive it, they cannot welcome it.
Not at all . As the message is preached the Spirit can and does bring dead spirits to life, by giving a new heart.
No Calvinist believes that, They preach to all men everywhere.
No, what is obvious to me, as that you do not seem to welcome God's truth. I would recommend you self examine and see if you are in the faith as you claim. or.13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
These kind of snide comments are a sad indicator of where you might be at spiritually.
I heard him say it on a podcast and a debate. He denies the Spirit is essential to allow a person to welcome the truth, when God could not have Paul written it any plainer.
Hodge's three simple rules:
1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.
2. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture.
3. The Scriptures are to be interpreted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which guidance is to be humbly and earnestly sought. - Charles Hodge
Once you eliminate @Silverhair's railing claptrap, all that's left in his posts is pitting scripture against scripture, with no attempt to harmonize.
1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.
2. Scripture cannot contradict Scripture.
3. The Scriptures are to be interpreted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which guidance is to be humbly and earnestly sought. - Charles Hodge
Once you eliminate @Silverhair's railing claptrap, all that's left in his posts is pitting scripture against scripture, with no attempt to harmonize.
You clearly don’t understand what is Pelagian and what is not.
From your definition you posted.
Pelagianism asserts that individuals can achieve salvation through their own efforts rather than relying on divine grace.
Flowers never states nor can anyone honestly even believe that he is teaching salvation without divine intervention.
You attack anything that isn’t your stripe of Calvinism and you say things that aren’t true. You will inevitably double down and say that you have not made any mistakes but that would be another.
Acts 17:24-29
God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
It looks to me like Paul sees that the work of God in creation is enough to to bring them to believing, or else I don’t know what you think he means by finding God.
Tea
Member
The thing is, Ben, what we’re saying is that man is so enslaved to sin that even if Jesus manifested Himself right in front of them, which would leave no doubt of His existence, they would still slam the door in His face every time. That’s why it takes the work of God to change their nature to even have the desire to embrace Him.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You should read this post KY. See what reading in context actually teaches
Why Provisionism Is Not Biblical
I would do that, however I am not sure what scripture you are posting about? I think we might discover something if you could provide several scriptures that you think are violated? Just about all that you use to support your misplaced TULIP/DoG theology.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
As long as you ignore context you will continue to misunderstand the word of God.
The bible is not a book of one liners as you seem to think.
It is not supernatural if all men have the natural ability to think and reason information and decide for or against an idea.
This is how God made man to function naturally. I don’t see anything supernatural about the way that God made the world to be naturally.
God certainly functions and works above our natural ability but it is not supernatural for God because it is His nature.
But thinking is natural. Deciding is natural. Discerning is natural. Believing is natural. All are God given abilities (we didn’t create ourselves) but they are all within the scope of natural creation.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Still ignoring context KY. That is sad.
I actually agree with Hodge. Now if you actually did the same.
This is kind of a dog chasing his tail argument.
If Jesus manifested Himself right in front of them, He would be working in their hearts. He would be interacting with them.
He did interact and intervene. It is true that creation alone is not enough. Jesus did have to give Himself a sacrifice for sin. We only come to God through Christ. But Jesus did manifest Himself to mankind. What more can be required. Must Jesus come to every generation?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Then you are denying all the OT saints and the many people now that are coming to faith in God through dreams and such.
Strange how those that keep saying God is sovereign then refuse to allow Him to be sovereign over His creation.
We are saved by grace through faith. That is not complicated to understand.