Why so many unfounded attacks on Calvinism?

[Jarthur001]

What is the fear all about? Each new thread that starts as an attack only shows people do not understand what Calvinism is. I mean we disagree on how we see some passages, but some come to the table with such a hate and fear as if it was up to them to save the faith. In most cases there is no fear shown. In must cases they have been told wrong.

Disagreement...yes. Misunderstanding...yes.

What is the fear about? Why all the hate toward Calvinism?

 

[Rippon]

What is the fear all about? Each new thread that starts as an attack only shows people do not understand what Calvinism is. I mean we disagree on how we see some passages, but some come to the table with such a hate and fear as if it was up to them to save the faith. In most cases there is no fear shown. In must cases they have been told wrong.

Disagreement...yes. Misunderstanding...yes.

What is the fear about? Why all the hate toward Calvinism?

I regard anti-Calvinism as I do the KJVO movement --against Scripture.

You can clarify and repeat yourself only so many times -- but they still come up with the same junk.

Now there are some reasonable non-Cals out there -- but they are a distinct minority.

 

[Jarthur001]

I regard anti-Calvinism as I do the KJVO movement --against Scripture.

You can clarify and repeat yourself only so many times -- but they still come up with the same junk.

Now there are some reasonable non-Cals out there -- but they are a distinct minority.

Good likeness...

In the KJVO we see the same thing. People have been given bad info and they believe it.

 

[sag38]

You can clarify and repeat yourself only so many times -- but they still come up with the same junk.

Brother, that shoe fits the other foot too.

 

[sag38]

On this site and in various articles and books that I have read Calvinists have questioned the salvation and evangelistic techniques of non-calvinistic leaning churches. They have accused others of refusing to believe the supposed truth of calvinism that they claim is found in God's word. Organizations like the Founders Movement are seeking to re-establish Calvinism as the norm in all SBC churches thus forcing out those who disagree. And, then you ask, "Why so many unfounded attacks?"

 

[gb93433]

What is the fear all about? Each new thread that starts as an attack only shows people do not understand what Calvinism is. I mean we disagree on how we see some passages, but some come to the table with such a hate and fear as if it was up to them to save the faith. In most cases there is no fear shown. In must cases they have been told wrong.

I do not have a fear of calvinism but what those who base their faith on it can or will do. Many a young person has been led astray by a particular theology but never by the Bible.

I have read a lot Calvin's works but as I speak with people who claim to be calvinists, I find so many variations of calvinism among them. When I consider that there are 3, 4, 5, and six point calvinists that leaves a lot of variation among calvinists. However I do not see any variation in scripture. When there are differences in points of view as Christians there must be humility and grace. I have seen the destruction of arrogant hyper-calvinists who have disrupted a large meeting and shouted at the leader even while non-Christians were present. I also watched them later as they matured, and realized the error of their ways, and came back to the Bible.

Anyone who has been around a few years realizes that God uses young people an awful lot to get his work done. The modern missionary movement was started by young people.

It is not so much whether one is a calvinist or an arminiamist or in the middle as is the person living for Jesus Christ and who is living for Christ because of their life because they are making disciples.

When we preach a systematric theology and try to support it then we can go wrong but if we preach the Bible it will correct any bad theology we may have and confirm our theology if it is correct. Our theology must come ffrom scripture, not that we interpret scripture in light of a theology. I have seen where both leads.

 

[gb93433]

Now there are some reasonable non-Cals out there -- but they are a distinct minority.

I think that goes for both sides of that fence especially in areas where Christians are small in number and pray for one another. I came to know Christ in an area of the U.S. where Christians were small in number but they were powerful because Christ was the issue and not much of anything else. The fellowship was great. Going to another Bible believing church was viewed more as a personal preference than a huge theological difference. Many of those people went to events held at other churches. In a real sense we were like family.

We can disagree but in a real sense we are in the battle together. When we are battling the enemy some of the differences we see when we are armchair theologians matter little.

 

[Grasshopper]

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3006

 

[Tom Butler]

On this site and in various articles and books that I have read Calvinists have questioned the salvation and evangelistic techniques of non-calvinistic leaning churches. They have accused others of refusing to believe the supposed truth of calvinism that they claim is found in God's word. Organizations like the Founders Movement are seeking to re-establish Calvinism as the norm in all SBC churches thus forcing out those who disagree. And, then you ask, "Why so many unfounded attacks?"

Naturally, my side believes that its criticisms of your side are based in scripture and common sense, and that your criticisms of our side are not.

I try to stay out of the debates because they retrace old ground--except when I'm the one who wants to retrace old ground. I have consistently sniped at easy believism, a corrupted version of the Roman Road soul-winning, a corrupted Sinner's Prayer and a manipulative invitation system, regardless of who practices them. It just so happens that those who practice these are mostly non-Calvinists. Now don't take this personally, I'm not talking about you.

I know Calvinists who use the Roman Road for witnessing. I know Calvinist pastors who still give an invitation at the end of the service. They are configured differently to be consistent with their soteriology, but used nonetheless. Then there are Calvinists who don't find it imperative to end with an invitation because they think it consistent with scripture.

I seek to measure our methods of presenting the gospel against the scriptures, not against my Calvinist leanings, or anyone's non-Calvinistic leanings. Sometimes non-Cals just get caught in the crossfire and think I'm shooting at them.

And sometimes I am. And then I duck because they tend to shoot back.

.

 

[TCGreek]

I'm one of those calvinist pastors who just preach without the labels. I just emphasize mostly human depravity, the sovereign grace of God in calling the sinner, and the preservation of believers.

The others usually fit themselves in.

I don't have to belabor the issues.

Now this is my approach.

 

[saturneptune]

Hello Arthur,
The answer is, man wants to be in control of his destiny. Sorry, no novel size posts. Hope you are doing ok.

 

[gb93433]

It does amaze me how many calvinists deny that God created evil.

 

[Rippon]

It does amaze me how many calvinists deny that God created evil.

Saying God created evil is the same thing as saying He created sin.Do you maintain that?!

 

[psalms109:31]

Calvinist

I have nothing against what calvinist teach, it is what we need to know and what we need to be reminded of, but it is what they don't teach is what disturbs me.

One thing God has convinced me of in my youth is that God loved the world that He sent His Son. God isn't going to make a bold statement like that and then in our maturity limit what the word world really is. That is deception, but I can continue to believe what God convinced me of in my youth. I praise God for what I learned from calvinist but what I learned did not take away from that truth, but made it stronger. God confirmed that He loved the world that He sent His Son when He said through Paul that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Then even say that he wasn't lying about this. God loved the world,but not all will be saved, because only believers in His Son will be saved. Even though God does what all men to be saved, but He is only going to save believers in His Son.

I learn more and more, but it will never take away from what God has already convinced me of from His word. It is not pride or trying to be in control, but believing God's word makes God in control, because it is His word controlling you not you. Faith comes from God through the words of Jesus, it didn't come from me that I may boast but from God through His word.

I'm glad I'm not stuck in a religious box like calvinist or an arminian box that I can see all scripture and believe. I don't have to follow the crowd in what they believe, but I can believe the scripture just like it says.

You were in included when you heard the Gospel of your salvation having believed, you were included with those chosen before the foundation of the world when you heard the Gospel of your salvation having believed, not before.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Romans 10:
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Calvinist are right in everthing they teach until Jesus was lifted up and Penticost. It is all the Father until Jesus was lifted up and now He will draw all men to Himself and all authority has been been given to Jesus. He places two roads before us to believe in Him and be saved or not and be condemned and God made us the messenger.

God does want all men to be saved, you can either believe God or man, so which road are you on?

 

[gb93433]

Saying God created evil is the same thing as saying He created sin.Do you maintain that?!

Is. 45:7, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Amos 3:6, “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Lam. 3:38, “Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?”

When one considers the fact that Americans think like Greeks and not Jews makes it rather difficult to understand anything that seems foreign. The Greek philosophy compartmentalizes everything separate from each other.

The Jewish way of thinking was that God was in everything. Without evil there would not be good. It is like one big circle and everything is in that circle together. To interpret most of scripture one must think like those in the Jewish culture not a Greek or American culture.

That is a huge problem with reading systematic theologies and not the Bible. Very few actually address the issue.

 

[Benjamin]

It does amaze me how many calvinists deny that God created evil.

Really surprised to hear you think this, gp. I saw that you said this on another tread the other day, but since it's off topic, and a tired debate, I won't get it started here. I will say that I often reason that Calvinist do logically conclude God is the Creator of evil, or sin, and argue to show the fatalism in that belief.

Whoa, just remebered I started to answer this but didn't post it, here you go:


Create Evil?

How does evil or trouble come from the LORD God’s mouth? Through His direction, and providence, by which contains His foresight of “men desiring evil” (their responsibility for evil), rebelling, and complaining of the punishment for their deeds, this very same evil that is spoken of is what “they” are responsible for, not God. God did not literally create evil, as a truth of being Good He can’t, only by a poor interpretation of scriptures would one ever conclude otherwise.

I am really surprised at the implication here as I commonly would only find reason to attribute the one defining God as a creator of evil to come from a Hard Determinist, either directly or indirectly, no matter, the substance of the conclusion is placing the responsibility of evil on God by simple logic and leads to fatalism going right to the core of their theology.

God is Truth, He could no more create evil than make a square circle, or not be Truth. A simple comparison to scripture bears the Divine nature out: “He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment, a God of truth and without inequity, just and right is He.” Deut 32:4

Take this as literal:

His work is perfect:
H8549
תּמים
tâmîym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

Without iniquity:
H5766
עלהעולהעולהעולעול
‛evel ‛âvel ‛avlâh ‛ôlâh ‛ôlâh
eh'-vel, aw'-vel, av-law', o-law', o-law'
From H5765; (moral) evil: - iniquity, perverseness, unjust (-ly), unrighteousness (-ly), wicked (-ness).

Another important point I would make is “create evil” does not translate to moral evil---but in contrast to “peace” such as war, calamity or disaster, pestilence.

In Isaiah 45:7 (“and create evil”) when looking into the context God is making a glorious promise to Cyrus and contending with those that hinder Him with a curse. God is telling them to contend with their fellow creatures and not with their Creator. He makes peace, (that’s what He does) and creates evil (and this is the result) He tells them He is the Lord and is instructing them to do these things and follows by giving them a “woe” for striving against Him.

The NKJV
I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.'

The NLT
I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness.
I am the one who sends good times and bad times.
I, the Lord, am the one who does these things.

The ESV
“I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

The NASB
The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.

NIV
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

RSV
I form light and create darkness,
I make weal and create woe,
I am the LORD, who do all these things.


For another scriptural comparison:
(Jam 1:13) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

 

[Benjamin]

Saying God created evil is the same thing as saying He created sin.Do you maintain that?!

I can't believe I'm on the same side as Rippon! :tonofbricks:


:laugh:

 

[gb93433]

Really surprised to hear you think this, gp.

It is not so much what I think but what the Bible actually teaches.
While your post appeals to reason, it fails to really point out what scripture actually teaches.

Years ago I was confronted about this by a young man I was discipling and I did not have much of an answer. Since that time I studied the historical context of the what the Bible teaches rather than reading what men have conveniently written while appealing to reason and missing the mark of what the true message is. Too often the problem is that people keep teaching the ignorance of what they have been taught rather than studying scripture for themselves.

 

[Benjamin]

It is not so much what I think but what the Bible actually teaches.
While your post appeals to reason, it fails to really point out what scripture actually teaches.

Years ago I was confronted about this by a young man I was discipling and I did not have much of an answer. Since that time I studied the historical context of the what the Bible teaches rather than reading what men have conveniently written while appealing to reason and missing the mark of what the true message is. Too often the problem is that people keep teaching the ignorance of what they have been taught rather than studying scripture for themselves.

Your preachin to the choir; I have studied this out in great depth through the scriptures. We'll have to disagree. :tear:

 

[Rippon]

Gb,I think what Benjamin posted in #16 was helpful.He included modern translations of your favorite verses.One can become confused when reading the KJV at times and apply modern meanings or connotations when all along the actual intent is quite different.