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Why so many unfounded attacks on Calvinism?
- Thread starter Jarthur001
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Jarthur001
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Jarthur001
Active Member
gb93433 said:
A Calvinist is not God, so I hope your God is bigger than a Calvinist.
Arrogant? Only if I do not back it with facts.
You may have heard of a thread called "The hidden dangers of Calvinism"?
That is called fear my friend.
In address the OP....why do some people have this fear? Why all the hate?
So what facts do you have that non-calvinists fear calvinism?Jarthur001 said:
To assume that one fears calvinism is to assume that non-calvinists fear a man-made theology which the calvinists assume is perfect.
You could have named a thread "The hidden dangers of Mormonism"? Just because there are hidden dangers does not imply that one fears it. One who fears is not trusting God. Daniel who was one with God did not fear man but absolutely trusted God.
I hate sin. Hate can be a good thing. God hates. Ask yourself this: “Has calvinism done anything to edify and unify, or divide and cause division?”
1 Cor. 14:26, “What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
saturneptune
New Member
gb93433 said:
There are discussions all the time at our church about Calvinism, and have never seen it divide. All the discussions have been civil. Your question might be better put to those who are for closed communion.
Jarthur001
Active Member
drfuss said:
Jarthur001
Active Member
webdog said:
I have gave two. I will give more if you still don't understand.
Please read the thread.
Jarthur001
Active Member
gb93433 said:
I have posted two. You may need to read the thread again.
Like this post..
.
And how many post was allowed by SP.....off the wall stuff....before he was banned? All over fear.
.
All theology is man made. Even your own. Now, I hope it is only one step away from the Bible as is Calvinism. I'm not sure Calvinism use the word perfect. I have never seen it used. Yet they will claim it is the best fit for understanding the whole Bible.
Yes indeed. If I were to do this, I would in the end show a hidden danger. But what was posted in that thread was not hidden. Now was there any danger. Now it may have been somethign you disagreed with, which is fine. Danger? No!
If you make it the point of the thread...at least show one. BTW...danger showed have a fear to some level.
.
indeed. Why the fear?
He feared God more than man.
It only causes division if you disagree. Therefore the same can be said of free-will doctrine. The Seeker movement divides also. But only with those that disagree.
As to the edify and unify. For you to ask, only shows you don't know Calvinism. It is like those that say Calvinist don't witness. hogwash.
http://www.corkfpc.com/soulwinnercalvinsaid.html
We are showing a 4 and a half long DVD on the history of Calvinism. This DVD shows time and time again where all major revivals and real strong lasting growth was linked to Calvinism.
Like this like..
http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/05/calvinism_evangelism_revivals.php
Now about these last two statements and links. You may disagree that ALL were linked to Calvinism. We could debate that fact if you want. But it shows that your claims are unjust. So why all the unfounded hate?
You can start by dropping the hate and get to know a Calvinist
Why Are Calvinists So Negative? By John Piper
"...the intellectual appeal of the system of Calvinism draws a certain kind of intellectual person, and that type of person doesn't tend to be the most warm, fuzzy, and tender. Therefore this type of person has a greater danger of being hostile, gruff, abrupt, insensitive or intellectualistic.
I'll just confess that. It's a sad and terrible thing that that's the case. Some of this type aren't even Christians, I think. You can embrace a system of theology and not even be born again."
"...the intellectual appeal of the system of Calvinism draws a certain kind of intellectual person, and that type of person doesn't tend to be the most warm, fuzzy, and tender. Therefore this type of person has a greater danger of being hostile, gruff, abrupt, insensitive or intellectualistic.
I'll just confess that. It's a sad and terrible thing that that's the case. Some of this type aren't even Christians, I think. You can embrace a system of theology and not even be born again."
That works on both sides of the coin concerning any issue Jerome even the secular.Jerome said:
Not just Calvinism vs. Arminianism, but liberalisms vs. conservativism,
Big Bangism vs. Uniformitarianism, capitalism vs. communism, etc...
on both sides, terms and taboos are defined, lines are drawn, labels and names are issued for those who disagree, sentences are passed and executed upon the guilty.
Even as brethren, it's what we do when we are behaving in a carnal matter:
1 Corinthians 3
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
James 3
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
We are all guilty, it wouldn't take much of a search to find my own "shibboleths" and I suppose the evil one will keep us well supplied with divisive issues until we see Jesus coming in His glory.
1 John 2
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
HankD
"There used to be a very strong contention about particular redemption and general redemption, and though I confess myself to be to the very backbone a believer in Calvinistic doctrine, I never felt at home in such discussions. It is one thing to believe in the doctrines of grace, but qnite another thing to accept all the encrustations which have formed upon those doctrines, and also a very different matter to agree with the spirit which is apparent in some who profess to propagate the pure truth." ---Spurgeon
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I sure would not want to be following any theology I do not believe is perfect. I call myself a Christian because I follow Christ who is perfect and His theology is perfect. I do not know of anyone who could make such a claim as Christ did?
A few years ago I saw a man literally shake when I told him that I wanted him to take his family and do some surveys in the community. It was a block of about two hours. He had never shared his faith in such a public way before. He was an ordained deacon from another church and yet led Sunday School for years and had never discipled anyone. He went and came back a changed man. He began two Bible studies in that community. His wife began a ministry for ladies in the community in an attempt to reach non-believers. In two hours that entire family was changed. The kids even started sharing their faith at school.
You could do that two times in the same time it would take to view your DVDs. Think about the fruit of each ministry.
If I were Satan and wanted to disable the church I would get the church busy, busy, busy, and not producing. The way to do that is to get them discussing things such as all of the isms. I have literally seen men shake as I have asked them to go with me to do ministry. There have been times when I have been involved in a discussion and have heard things which I do not consider productive and then asked the person to go with me to do ministry. It is rather interesting to see what happens.
Some calvinists (as well as many from other theological persuasions) are very loving, and others are arrogant and divisive.
FYI I have many friends who would claim to be calvinists or claim to be calvinistic. There are those who are in areas of the U.S. where there are very few Christians and they do not use that terminology, simply because they are winning people to Christ and do not teach calvinism, but rather what the Bible teaches. One can apply what scripture says in Eccl. 12:12, "But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body." I only have so many hours in a day. I can spend them studying scripture and making disciples or I can be an armchair theologian. There is a lot of theolgy that those who spend their time studying and not making disciples. The mysteries of the faith are only revealed as one is obedient. Making disicples is part of that obedience.
If you knew nothing about or had never heard of calvinism and only read your Bible you would only know what scripture teaches and nothing of what calvinism is. an old man once asked me, How do you tell a crooked stick? You lay a straight one next to it." Then he told me to spend my time studying scripture. That man at that time had already led numerous people to Christ and was not a pastor. He had discipled many over the years. He was responsible for training many who wanted to go on the mission field. I do not need to study an imperfect theology when I already have the straight stick of scripture. So I will spend my time studying scripture, not some of the many isms out there to catch my attention and divert me from the real job of making disciples and studying my Bible.
I do not know my Bible well enough to be able to answer all of my own questions and do not have all of it memorized yet, nor do I have such a handle on Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic that I am able to find time to perpetuate a systematic theology that is imperfect.
I certainly never started, replanted or pastored a church based on anything other than Christ and a knowledge of scripture and it being applied.
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The theology which comes directly from scripture is not man-made but God inspired. That is the very reason why we must study scripture. 2 Tim 3:16 declares the power and inspiration of scripture.Jarthur001 said:
I sure would not want to be following any theology I do not believe is perfect. I call myself a Christian because I follow Christ who is perfect and His theology is perfect. I do not know of anyone who could make such a claim as Christ did?
I hope you are not married and have kids. The Bible says that there is to be no division in the body. Am I assuming too much to make claim that calvinists are a part of the body?
No other theology ever made such a claim and I suspect that calvinists have ever made such a claim if they have ever read their Bible! Even God did not make such a claim. God does not make disciples. The responsibility that the Holy Spirit gave was for believers to disciple others (Acts 20:28). John said that he had no greater joy than to know that his children walk in the truth. The problem is that too many Christians today relegate their responsibility to God when God gave that responsibility to them.
A few years ago I saw a man literally shake when I told him that I wanted him to take his family and do some surveys in the community. It was a block of about two hours. He had never shared his faith in such a public way before. He was an ordained deacon from another church and yet led Sunday School for years and had never discipled anyone. He went and came back a changed man. He began two Bible studies in that community. His wife began a ministry for ladies in the community in an attempt to reach non-believers. In two hours that entire family was changed. The kids even started sharing their faith at school.
You could do that two times in the same time it would take to view your DVDs. Think about the fruit of each ministry.
If I were Satan and wanted to disable the church I would get the church busy, busy, busy, and not producing. The way to do that is to get them discussing things such as all of the isms. I have literally seen men shake as I have asked them to go with me to do ministry. There have been times when I have been involved in a discussion and have heard things which I do not consider productive and then asked the person to go with me to do ministry. It is rather interesting to see what happens.
Maybe you noticed something I cannot think of, so could you point out where I used the word hate toward any calvinist?
Some calvinists (as well as many from other theological persuasions) are very loving, and others are arrogant and divisive.
FYI I have many friends who would claim to be calvinists or claim to be calvinistic. There are those who are in areas of the U.S. where there are very few Christians and they do not use that terminology, simply because they are winning people to Christ and do not teach calvinism, but rather what the Bible teaches. One can apply what scripture says in Eccl. 12:12, "But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body." I only have so many hours in a day. I can spend them studying scripture and making disciples or I can be an armchair theologian. There is a lot of theolgy that those who spend their time studying and not making disciples. The mysteries of the faith are only revealed as one is obedient. Making disicples is part of that obedience.
If you knew nothing about or had never heard of calvinism and only read your Bible you would only know what scripture teaches and nothing of what calvinism is. an old man once asked me, How do you tell a crooked stick? You lay a straight one next to it." Then he told me to spend my time studying scripture. That man at that time had already led numerous people to Christ and was not a pastor. He had discipled many over the years. He was responsible for training many who wanted to go on the mission field. I do not need to study an imperfect theology when I already have the straight stick of scripture. So I will spend my time studying scripture, not some of the many isms out there to catch my attention and divert me from the real job of making disciples and studying my Bible.
I do not know my Bible well enough to be able to answer all of my own questions and do not have all of it memorized yet, nor do I have such a handle on Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic that I am able to find time to perpetuate a systematic theology that is imperfect.
I certainly never started, replanted or pastored a church based on anything other than Christ and a knowledge of scripture and it being applied.
[/FONT]
And if both sticks are warped they may appear straight together.
I saw man on the telly this morning who went on about "Holy Ghost" messages, and he went on to "heal" a woman, who fell back, was lifted up and she danced all over the stage..Oh my, what a Bible reading he had.
We can't begin to understand a culture 2000 years old without some profane (that isn't swearing, by the way)history to explain cultures. This is extra biblical knowledge which sheds light on Bible information. Even using Greek to read the Bible, we must understand the koina Greek of that day. It was the regular language of regular people and changed meanings by location. We need outside information to even understand the Greek we all claim to use to understand the Bible.
Many false doctrines come from a simple reading of the Bible without an understanding of the people to whom is being addressed; their circumstances; their culture and other relevant information. This does not come from the Bible.
Yes, the Bible is God's word, but it was still written by men in various cultures and settings.
Cheers,
Jim
I saw man on the telly this morning who went on about "Holy Ghost" messages, and he went on to "heal" a woman, who fell back, was lifted up and she danced all over the stage..Oh my, what a Bible reading he had.
We can't begin to understand a culture 2000 years old without some profane (that isn't swearing, by the way)history to explain cultures. This is extra biblical knowledge which sheds light on Bible information. Even using Greek to read the Bible, we must understand the koina Greek of that day. It was the regular language of regular people and changed meanings by location. We need outside information to even understand the Greek we all claim to use to understand the Bible.
Many false doctrines come from a simple reading of the Bible without an understanding of the people to whom is being addressed; their circumstances; their culture and other relevant information. This does not come from the Bible.
Yes, the Bible is God's word, but it was still written by men in various cultures and settings.
Cheers,
Jim
Why the attacks on Calvinism?
Because many believe that it is a totally unbiblical system of theology, inspite of what the Calvinists on this board may say. Here are two of the more popular people that think so:
Dave Hunt, who wrote: " [FONT="]What Love is This? Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God"
and
B. Kirkland, who wrote: "[/FONT] CALVINISM: None Dare Call It HERESY"
Kirkand shows how Calvin got his teaching from Augustine, and basically worshiped the man and his teaching, all the while quoting from his Institutes.
Furthermore, Calvinists have a tendency to call those who don't believe in Calvinism, "Arminians," which is a false accusation. Arminians, as a whole believe believe that one can lose their salvation. It has been my observation that there are not many non-Cals on this board that hold to that belief, so why the "false accusation?" If one does not hold to the tenets of Calvinism it does not automatically put him into the camp of Arminianism.
Because many believe that it is a totally unbiblical system of theology, inspite of what the Calvinists on this board may say. Here are two of the more popular people that think so:
Dave Hunt, who wrote: " [FONT="]What Love is This? Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God"
and
B. Kirkland, who wrote: "[/FONT] CALVINISM: None Dare Call It HERESY"
Kirkand shows how Calvin got his teaching from Augustine, and basically worshiped the man and his teaching, all the while quoting from his Institutes.
Furthermore, Calvinists have a tendency to call those who don't believe in Calvinism, "Arminians," which is a false accusation. Arminians, as a whole believe believe that one can lose their salvation. It has been my observation that there are not many non-Cals on this board that hold to that belief, so why the "false accusation?" If one does not hold to the tenets of Calvinism it does not automatically put him into the camp of Arminianism.
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