Why so many unfounded attacks on Calvinism?

[gb93433]

And if both sticks are warped they may appear straight together.

Ah, but if you turn one over it will quickly reveal how crooked at least one of them is. That is the way I was taught by the master to make a stick straight without the use of a straight edge.

I saw man on the telly this morning who went on about "Holy Ghost" messages, and he went on to "heal" a woman, who fell back, was lifted up and she danced all over the stage..Oh my, what a Bible reading he had.

And to think that people actually listen to them!

We can't begin to understand a culture 2000 years old without some profane (that isn't swearing, by the way)history to explain cultures. This is extra biblical knowledge which sheds light on Bible information. Even using Greek to read the Bible, we must understand the koina Greek of that day. It was the regular language of regular people and changed meanings by location. We need outside information to even understand the Greek we all claim to use to understand the Bible.

Many false doctrines come from a simple reading of the Bible without an understanding of the people to whom is being addressed; their circumstances; their culture and other relevant information. This does not come from the Bible.

Yes, the Bible is God's word, but it was still written by men in various cultures and settings.

I could not agree more. That is the reason why we must study the Bible in light of its historical context. Too many Bible studies are led by the question, "What does it mean to you?" It has nothing to do with what it means to me but rather what it does mean.

Too many Bible studies are personalized in terms of interpretation rather than the correct interpretation and then apply the passage considering the passage's historical context.

 

[Pipedude]

When I consider that there are 3, 4, 5, and six point calvinists that leaves a lot of variation among calvinists.

I saw an eight-point last month, but he got spooked and ran before I could get my scope on him.

Furthermore, Calvinists have a tendency to call those who don't believe in Calvinism, "Arminians," which is a false accusation.

Arminianism is the belief in general redemption as opposed to the doctrine of particular redemption. Arminius himself never affirmed the doctrine of conditional security, although he suggested that it might be so.

You can clarify and repeat yourself only so many times.

Oh, please tell me that the limit is drawing near . . .

Make no mistake, it is a fear they have.

Scared me so bad, I nearly backed out of writing this.

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm hesitant to call non-Cal Baptists Arminian, because most Baptists do not believe one can lose his salvation.

Just as most Calvinists would not call them followers of Calvin, not all Arminians would call themselves followers of Arminius.

When a Baptist calls someone an Arminian, usually he means one who believes salvation can be lost. That may not be an accurate description, but that's what he means.

 

[OldRegular]

I have said it before and I will say it again. People are biased against the word Calvinism and, therefore, they will read anything discussing Calvinism from a biased viewpoint. I am not a Calvinist. Calvin held many doctrines which I cannot accept such as his view on the Lord's Supper and infant Baptism.

I believe in the Sovereignty of God in the Salvation of His Elect. Some people have called this the Doctrines of Grace which sounds better than Calvinism.

 

[MB]

What is the fear all about? Each new thread that starts as an attack only shows people do not understand what Calvinism is. I mean we disagree on how we see some passages, but some come to the table with such a hate and fear as if it was up to them to save the faith. In most cases there is no fear shown. In must cases they have been told wrong.

Disagreement...yes. Misunderstanding...yes.

What is the fear about? Why all the hate toward Calvinism?

Just because I refuse to accept it as you have doesn't mean I'm affraid of it. It means I don't find it to be according to scripture. Why do I hate it? Well I believe it is contradictive to scripture and there fore is just another part of the world. We are told in scripture to separate ourselves from the world. To not be a part of it.
Why do you hate any teaching that rejects Calvinism? Why do you hate it when you're challenged to prove your point of view? Why do you take it personally when people try to show you the truth? Isn't it the same reason.

MB

 

[gb93433]

What I find interesting is that on the BB I have encountered two calvinists who do not believe that God created evil. The problem I have with their theology is that scripture states that God did create evil. They wrote before they even took a look at a concordance. Just shows how much they do not believe in the sovereignty of God. Apaprently they believe in the limited sovereignty of God too.

 

[Benjamin]

What I find interesting is that on the BB I have encountered two calvinists who do not believe that God created evil. The problem I have with their theology is that scripture states that God did create evil. They wrote before they even took a look at a concordance. Just shows how much they do not believe in the sovereignty of God. Apaprently they believe in the limited sovereignty of God too.

FTR, I am not a Calvinist. Apparently you are since you believe God created evil? Although, this is off the OP with this God created evil suggestion. Regardless, the scripture says no such thing as I demonstarted earlier in this tread, and it has nothing to do with limiting God's sovereignty to understand that God did not create evil. Where have you been??? This has been debated here countless times!

The Determinist must hold to God being the creator of evil and/or the author of sin to hold their man-made position is all. The inclination that God created evil is a force to fit doctrine of necessity which goes against your prior lecture to me about following man rather than the scriptures.

 

[gb93433]

FTR, I am not a Calvinist. Apparently you are since you believe God created evil? Although, this is off the OP with this God created evil suggestion. Regardless, the scripture says no such thing as I demonstarted earlier in this tread, and it has nothing to do with limiting God's sovereignty to understand that God did not create evil. Where have you been??? This has been debated here countless times!

The Determinist must hold to God being the creator of evil and/or the author of sin to hold their man-made position is all. The inclination that God created evil is a force to fit doctrine of necessity which goes against your prior lecture to me about following man rather than the scriptures.

To say that God did not create evil is to go directly against what scripture directly addresses and God inspired. It also goes against God's sovereignty because to make the false assumption that God did not create evil when he did, openly declares that God is a liar and to declare that God is not sovereign in all he declares and in the totality of His work is to limit God.

To fully understand the fact that God created evil, you must understand the difference between a Greek understanding (which you possess) and a Jewish mindset you must study how the Jews thought.

Since God created everything that includes everything.

It does matter what I hold to or believe. What matters is that the Bible directly says it. Use an concordance and you will see that God did create evil. If you believe what your Bible declares directly then you will believe that God created evil.

How are Amos 3:6 and Lamentations 3:38 to be interpreted?

 

[Benjamin]

To say that God did not create evil is to go directly against what scripture directly addresses and God inspired. It also goes against God's sovereignty because to make the false assumption that God did not create evil when he did, openly declares that God is a liar and to declare that God is not sovereign in all he declares and in the totality of His work is to limit God.

To fully understand the fact that God created evil, you must understand the difference between a Greek understanding (which you possess) and a Jewish mindset you must study how the Jews thought.

Since God created everything that includes everything.

It does matter what I hold to or believe. What matters is that the Bible directly says it. Use an concordance and you will see that God did create evil. If you believe what your Bible declares directly then you will believe that God created evil.

How are Amos 3:6 and Lamentations 3:38 to be interpreted?

IMO, you possess a man made Determinist view which can only logically result in fatalism. That said, I clearly used a concordance in my rebuttal of your earlier faulty interpretation of the meaning in Isa 45:7. Further, I have no intention to keep on doing exegesis of scripture for you,(which in this case you use as a circular smokescreen while misplacing the burden of proof); being I have already thoroughly refuted your former proof text without your responses and I’m not going to engage in your rabbit chasing form of debate. (You have done little more with the above reply than neglect your mistake I pointed out earlier and continuance in an arrogant ad hominem fashion.) Ihave also addressed the Divine nature of God, which IS ALSO Truth, through Deut 32:4, in detail, again with no response. So what I do understand is your apparent need to use fallacious, Ad hominem, condescending lecture tactics; and that it is not me that needs to come to understanding the origin of his position, or is “openly declaring God a liar”, or disregarding the truth of scripture to hold to a man made doctrine.

Your utter avoidance of my other direct response to you about, "where you have been??? (concerning the tired accusation of limiting God’s sovereignty) by continuing to create this red herring and still trying to smokescreen this issue of God creating evil with a circular debate over Divine sovereignty amongst your other tactics is a non-sensible form of debate that this board is all to familiar with…and the style is not only laughable, but plain unedifying foolery.

 

[Jarthur001]

...and I still see no fear. I'll use your own words "this shows you don't know"

This will not be the 1st time you couldn't read a thread where links are given.

 

[Jarthur001]

Piper has got it right...we see it right here on this very thread.

I have read the Piper statement before. I also agree with it. Calvinist do get anger at times. This BB will show it. Calvinist have to tell the same people each week what believe, because some just don't get it. The same old tried disproved arguments. The same old statements that show they don't understand Calvinism. Yes...when you get them on a bad day angry can show.

That does not make it right, but it does happen. This is nothing like the fear shown in the Free-will camp. Not all of them, just some of them.

How many newbies come on here to run off the Calvinist? They are going to set things stright. They last about a month and you never see them again. They run back home to mommy, because those mean oh Calvinst will not listen to them. They read a book, and thought they knew it all.

Like here is another link. Please read this one...

http://www.1timothy4-13.com/files/bible/calvin.html

Please notice this...

THE HARM DONE BY CALVINISM HERESY

Now I could go through nearly all points on that site and show the lies. But...that is not the point of this thread.

Why lie? FEAR

 

[gb93433]

IMO, you possess a man made Determinist view which can only logically result in fatalism.

Your utter avoidance of my other direct response to you about, "where you have been??? (concerning the tired accusation of limiting God’s sovereignty) by continuing to create this red herring and still trying to smokescreen this issue of God creating evil with a circular debate over Divine sovereignty amongst your other tactics is a non-sensible form of debate that this board is all to familiar with…and the style is not only laughable, but plain unedifying foolery.

Did you not read what I wrote and you have no rebuttal other than personal attacks? Can you not write a rebuttal with some reasonable arguments or facts? If you have a rebuttal from scripture I will be glad to read it. However I am quite confident on this issue partly because I have had the same discussion with a few professors at SWBTS and they all agree with me.

There are two reasons why you it is impossible for you to try and determine what God said. One is you come with an attitude of a refusal to learn and the other is simply because you do not understand the culture in which those passages were written. Throw away your Greek philosophical mindset and introduce yourself to the Jewish mindset then you will understand fully what God has said. It has absolutely nothing to do with determinism. Once you do that then you will quickly understand why you were so blind.

I am trying to explain what the scripture teaches not argue with you. There is no point arguing with you because you do not understand the historical and cultural background of those passages. Until you do then you will not realize what is actually said. It is not anything like what you think in your Greek understanding.

When you realize how the Greeks thought then you will see yourself. When you realize how the Jews thought then you will realize how far off you are.

When you get done studying the Jewish culture and the Hebrew text of those passages let me know then we can have a further discussion.

 

[Rippon]

Well I believe it is contradictive to scripture and there fore is just another part of the world. We are told in scripture to separate ourselves from the world. To not be a part of it.

That's a hoot and a half.I'd like you to try and explain how the scriptural doctrine of the total depravity of man is a worldly doctrine.Are people of the world are running with itching ears to herar about how bad they are?! Come off it.
The same applies to the other distinctive doctrines that Calvinists stand for.

Why do you take it personally when people try to show you the truth?

O MB, great fountainhead of wisdom, we seek your counsel,guidance and unusual slant on the "truth".

 

[Jim1999]

or is that slant on unusual truth?

There are unfounded attacks simply because they are unfounded.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Jarthur001]

[FONT=&quot] The theology which comes directly from scripture is not man-made but God inspired. That is the very reason why we must study scripture. 2 Tim 3:16 declares the power and inspiration of scripture.

I don't have the time to address this in the way I would like to address it. Seminary would help. If you don't have the time or moeny...read.

I sure would not want to be following any theology I do not believe is perfect. I call myself a Christian because I follow Christ who is perfect and His theology is perfect. I do not know of anyone who could make such a claim as Christ did?

Blahs - blahs with no point.

I hope you are not married and have kids.

Married for over 30 years. We have 3 girls all with degrees from Bible College. All are in full time Christian work. My son-in-law is a pastor, I too am a pastor/church planter.

I fail to see your point.

The Bible says that there is to be no division in the body. Am I assuming too much to make claim that calvinists are a part of the body?

Again you show your lack of knowing what the Bible says. Christ came to divide. The church has no division. So why hate Calvinism when it is based on the Word? When so many before have built the church on it?

No other theology ever made such a claim and I suspect that calvinists have ever made such a claim if they have ever read their Bible!

See what I mean? You make my case for me. IF THEY EVER READ THEIR BIBLE??
Why such hate?

Even God did not make such a claim. God does not make disciples

.
This is one of the most mixxed up statements I have seen in a while.

John 1..
43The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.

The problem is that too many Christians today relegate their responsibility to God when God gave that responsibility to them.

Salvation is of the LORD. However, most Calvinist are also Lordship believers. So you make no point. You need to stop guessing what Calvinism is...and get to know what it is, so you stop make false statements like this.

A few years ago I saw a man literally shake when I told him that I wanted him to take his family and do some surveys in the community. It was a block of about two hours. He had never shared his faith in such a public way before. He was an ordained deacon from another church and yet led Sunday School for years and had never discipled anyone. He went and came back a changed man. He began two Bible studies in that community. His wife began a ministry for ladies in the community in an attempt to reach non-believers. In two hours that entire family was changed. The kids even started sharing their faith at school.

And this what Calvinist believe. Why bring it up? Do you even know what Calvinst believe?

You could do that two times in the same time it would take to view your DVDs. Think about the fruit of each ministry.

What another pointless statement?

If I were Satan and wanted to disable the church I would get the church busy, busy, busy, and not producing. The way to do that is to get them discussing things such as all of the isms. I have literally seen men shake as I have asked them to go with me to do ministry. There have been times when I have been involved in a discussion and have heard things which I do not consider productive and then asked the person to go with me to do ministry. It is rather interesting to see what happens.

This is getting funny. You don't have a clue...do you?

See what I mean readers? This guy feels like he must save the world from Calvinism. But he post fears that are not real. haha too funny

Maybe you noticed something I cannot think of, so could you point out where I used the word hate toward any calvinist?

You don't use the word hate for you feel you don't. Your own words tell the story.

Some calvinists (as well as many from other theological persuasions) are very loving, and others are arrogant and divisive.

:flower:

FYI I have many friends who would claim to be calvinists or claim to be calvinistic

Good for you. What does this sound like to you?

 

[Jarthur001]

Why the attacks on Calvinism?
Because many believe that it is a totally unbiblical system of theology, inspite of what the Calvinists on this board may say. Here are two of the more popular people that think so:

Dave Hunt, who wrote: " [FONT=&quot]What Love is This? Calvinism's Misrepresentation of God"
and
B. Kirkland, who wrote: "[/FONT] CALVINISM: None Dare Call It HERESY"

I have read both of these books. Kirkland forgot most of his footnotes. Hunt said two months before he wrote his book..."I really have not read any "reformed writer"". @ months later he is a expert.

Both books should be read if you want a good laugh. Calvinist never tell others not to read. Have fun...read them on your own. Make sure you check in to their support. There is little to none. Yet some believe them.

 

[Jarthur001]

. .Scared me so bad, I nearly backed out of writing this.

Don't lose your pipe over it.

 

[Benjamin]

Did you not read what I wrote and you have no rebuttal other than personal attacks? Can you not write a rebuttal with some reasonable arguments or facts? If you have a rebuttal from scripture I will be glad to read it. However I am quite confident on this issue partly because I have had the same discussion with a few professors at SWBTS and they all agree with me.

There are two reasons why you it is impossible for you to try and determine what God said. One is you come with an attitude of a refusal to learn and the other is simply because you do not understand the culture in which those passages were written. Throw away your Greek philosophical mindset and introduce yourself to the Jewish mindset then you will understand fully what God has said. It has absolutely nothing to do with determinism. Once you do that then you will quickly understand why you were so blind.

I am trying to explain what the scripture teaches not argue with you. There is no point arguing with you because you do not understand the historical and cultural background of those passages. Until you do then you will not realize what is actually said. It is not anything like what you think in your Greek understanding.

When you realize how the Greeks thought then you will see yourself. When you realize how the Jews thought then you will realize how far off you are.

When you get done studying the Jewish culture and the Hebrew text of those passages let me know then we can have a further discussion.

All I hear from you is how educated you are and how blind I and lacking in understanding I am, then you say I use personal attacks when I point it out to you with your red herrings while still avoiding your mis-interpretation of Isa 45:7 as a proof text.

Try clicking on the quote button at the bottom of post #16 and addressing that (Isa 45:7) rather than explaining to me how unworthy I am to comprehend scriptual understandings.

 

[Jarthur001]

What I find interesting is that on the BB I have encountered two calvinists who do not believe that God created evil. The problem I have with their theology is that scripture states that God did create evil. They wrote before they even took a look at a concordance. Just shows how much they do not believe in the sovereignty of God. Apaprently they believe in the limited sovereignty of God too.

You have a poor understanding of what evil is.
Most Calvinist no not believe God made evil.

 

[Jarthur001]

All I hear from you is how educated you are and how blind I and lacking in understanding I am, then you say I use personal attacks when I point it out to you with your red herrings while still avoiding your mis-interpretation of Isa 45:7 as a proof text.

Try clicking on the quote button at the bottom of post #16 and addressing that (Isa 45:7) rather than explaining to me how unworthy I am to comprehend scriptual understandings.

Hello Ben,

Don't feel left alone. He feels I know nothing also. Maybe someday he will share the great light he has with others. We can hope.