Why so much Angst About Limited atonement?

[DHK]

That is, the elect.

That is, the elect.

Luke 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

And were these Roman soldiers, whom Jesus prayed for, also the elect?
Or was Jesus just wasting his time as he hung there?

 

[Reformed]

The context of the Blasphemy passage isn't related to the atonement at all. Nevertheless, it says a particular sin won't be forgiven. Since forgiveness is achieved by and through Christ on the Cross, if a sin is unforgiven, it isn't "died for." Therefore, there are things for which Christ didn't die. So, the atonement is limited by Christ to not cover every sin.

Also the sin of attributing the works of Christ to Satan cannot be replicated today. That was the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That sin was only able to be committed during Christ's time on earth. The only unpardonable sin today is unbelief.

 

[savedbymercy]

Also the sin of attributing the works of Christ to Satan cannot be replicated today. That was the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. That sin was only able to be committed during Christ's time on earth. The only unpardonable sin today is unbelief.

All unbelief today is against the Spirit's Testimony of Christ as He reveals it in the Gospel ! Rev 19:10

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

1 Jn 5:6-10

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness [of the Spirit] in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

 

[savedbymercy]

reformed

The only unpardonable sin today is unbelief.

Thats not a True statemernt as it concerns the Elect and or any for whom Christ died ! God consigned the Elect into unbelief so that He may have Mercy upon them Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So Unbelief in the Elect meets with God's Mercy upon them !

 

[steaver]

I'm beginning to think you have a reality problem...

We've dealt with the living water thing, you just didn't like what we said. To deal with something one doesn't have to espouse your [mis]understanding.

The context of the Blasphemy passage isn't related to the atonement at all. Nevertheless, it says a particular sin won't be forgiven. Since forgiveness is achieved by and through Christ on the Cross, if a sin is unforgiven, it isn't "died for." Therefore, there are things for which Christ didn't die. So, the atonement is limited by Christ to not cover every sin.

The Archangel

(1) Only one Calvinist has attempted to deal with the living water "thing". Willis tried, but his position places those having been given the living water as Christ making them thirsty when Christ said they would never thirst AFTER receiving the living water that He shall give. You simply agreed with him.

(2) Jesus said "ALL manner of sin shall be forgiven UNTO MEN" and at the same time gave an EXCEPTION. The ONLY sin that wasn't "died for" is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (unbelief). This is why when those say if Christ died for ALL, ALL would be saved is false. Christ died for ALL's sin, EXCEPT anyone's sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit's call.

 

[Protestant]

Please read the entire prayer. It was for all who would come and believe on Him:

Joh 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Pastor, there is nothing contradictory in Jesus’ High Priest prayer before His crucifixion, during His crucifixion, and after His resurrection.

In verse 9 of John 17 Jesus prays:

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Since the will of Jesus always reflects the will of the Father:

1. Why would Jesus not pray for the world since, according to non-Cal theology, ‘God so loves the world’, meaning every human who ever lived?

How is 'love' manifest to those for whom Christ refuses to pray?

2. Why would Jesus make such a startling negative statement if He loves everyone, including Judas Iscariot?

3. Verses 20 and 21 cited above also limits those for whom Christ prays: He prays only for those who, in the future, will believe on Him.

Therefore, Christ’s prayer on the cross, is perfectly consistent with His prayer in the Garden.

It is limited to those who either now believe or shall in the future believe in Him.

Furthermore, if Christ’s prayer is limited in scope (on behalf of believers only), His atonement which bestows forgiveness of sins is also limited to believers only.

Just as the Jewish High Priest on the Day of Atonement asked the Lord forgiveness for the sins of Israel -- NOT for the world -- in like manner Jesus prays for forgiveness -- NOT for the world -- but for spiritual elect Israel, comprised of Jewish and Gentile believers.

Remember, the Father always hears the prayers of His Son.

Thus, the biblical truths:

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. [i.e., for believers only]

I lay down my life for the sheep. [i.e., for believers only]

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church [i.e., believers only], and gave himself for it; [i.e., for believers only]

Unto him that loved us [i.e., believers only], and washed us [i.e., believers only] from our sins in his own blood.

 

[The Archangel]

\
(2) Jesus said "ALL manner of sin shall be forgiven UNTO MEN" and at the same time gave an EXCEPTION. The ONLY sin that wasn't "died for" is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (unbelief). This is why when those say if Christ died for ALL, ALL would be saved is false. Christ died for ALL's sin, EXCEPT anyone's sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit's call.

"Christ died for ALL's sin, EXCEPT anyone's sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit's call," therefore not all sins have been died for and the atonement is limited.

Thank you.

The Archangel

 

[Inspector Javert]

1. Why would Jesus not pray for the world since, according to non-Cal theology, ‘God so loves the world’, meaning every human who ever lived?

He is praying specifically for all believers:
not all persons altogether...but believers:
Here you go:
Jhn 17:20
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Ask Jesus if, and when you meet him...it's his prerogative whom he prays for. That was his concern at that moment.
So what?

How is 'love' manifest to those for whom Christ refuses to pray?

He isn't "refusing" to pray for anyone...he is simply praying for all who believe. That does nothing to damn hurt or impugn anyone else... he is praying for his brethren, his sheep those who believe...
So what?

Why would Jesus make such a startling negative statement if He loves everyone, including Judas Iscariot?

huh? Judas was "one of his own"...
and he "lost" him...
see the passage:
Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,[/U] but the son of perdition

Verses 20 and 21 cited above also limits those for whom Christ prays: He prays only for those who, in the future, will believe on Him.

WOW!!!! YOU'RE RIGHT!!!!
YOU GET A COOKIE!
YOU'RE A GENIUS!
GOLD....FRIKKIN...STAR!

Yes, this prayer is only and always for those who believe....
It's for believers...

Again...
You get your smiley-face...:smilewinkgrin: and your gold-star for understanding this 2nd grade concept what's your point???
He is praying for his sheep.
He is praying for believers.

What else is so important in your uniquely brilliant mind?
Huh?

Therefore, Christ’s prayer on the cross, is perfectly consistent with His prayer in the Garden.

Christ's prayer on the cross is utterly unrelated to his prayer in the garden.

It is limited to those who either now believe or shall in the future believe in Him.

His prayer in the GARDEN is...
but his prayer on the CROSS?
Are you officially contending that the prayer on the CROSS is even remotely RELATED to his prayer in the garden?

Is that what you think???

That's stupid.
It's simply not the same prayer...
Not at all.

It's unrelated.

I know DHK somehow argued by referring to it...
But, you would have been wise to ignore the relationship....it doesn't exist.
They are unrelated...
Altogether.

It was pointless for DHK to mention it...
It was pointless to aknowledge the relationship.
There is no similarity.
None at all.

Furthermore, if Christ’s prayer is limited in scope (on behalf of believers only),

His prayer in John 17 is CLEARLY limited in scope...TWICE!

He limits it to the disciples until vs. 20.......
in vs. 20 he limits the scope to EVERYONE who believes then and in the future just read the passage:

Jhn 17:20
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

His atonement which bestows forgiveness of sins is also limited to believers only.

How do the words of Christ in that prayer state that he cares nothing for the un-saved?

What exactly is your argument for that?

He's praying for the 11... (gotcha')
He then prays for everyone else who will believe (gotcha')
He limits atonement??????
When did that happen????

Just as the Jewish High Priest on the Day of Atonement asked the Lord forgiveness for the sins of Israel

Yes, how do you Calvies not get it???
It was sufficient for ALL Israel was it not?
Were ALL Israelites saved???
Well, were they?
Was every person who was a part of national Israel saved????

NO....
They weren't....

But, was the sacrifice on the day of atonement sufficient for them????
Not all Jews were regenerate were they???
Wasn't the High Priests sacrifice made for ALL Jews????
Yes, it was....

Even the Old Testament figure SCREAMS against your idea...

-- NOT for the world -- in like manner Jesus prays for forgiveness -- NOT for the world -- but for spiritual elect Israel, comprised of Jewish and Gentile believers.

His prayer in John has nothing whatsoever to do with his prayer on the cross...

Apparently only you and DHK thinks they are comparable.

On the cross....
He's just praying for those particular individuals who are crucifying him....
That includes NEITHER the Disciples nor those in the future who will believe on him.

The idea that they are related in any way is retarded.
Remember, the Father always hears the prayers of His Son.

Thus, the biblical truths:
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. [i.e., for believers only]

He does lay down his life for the sheep....

I would lay down my life for my wife....
I have 4 daughters....

are you concluding that my saying I lay down my life for my wife to mean I wouldn't lay down my life for them too?

I lay down my life for the sheep.

I spent a few years in combat in the Marine Corps and I gladly was willing and potentially laid my life down for my fellow Marines....
Claiming I did so does not mean I wouldn't do so for another as well.

[i.e., for believers only]

Not in the text...
Christ laid down his life for EVERYONE....
simply saying he laid down his life for the sheep (when the sheep are the only ones in view) proves nothing...
He also laid his life for the world...
even the apostate.....
and here's some Bible for you:

2Pe 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church
[i.e., believers only], and gave himself for it;

Yes, Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it.

[i.e., for believers only]

No....
That doesn't follow..
It simply doesn't.
If you think it does,
than you simply don't understand logic.

There's no reason to assume that the statement:
"Christ loved and gave himself for the Church"...
means
He gave himself ONLY for the Church...
No more than my saying:
"I love my wife and would give my life for her"
means
I.J. doesn't care a fig for his 4 children and wouldn't die for them too...

That's sheer stupidity and a lack of basic logic.

Unto him that loved us

Yes.

[i.e., believers only],

no, not necessarily.

and washed us [i.e., believers only]
from our sins in his own blood.

Yes....those who are "Washed" would be the saved...

Nothing states that he doesn't also love others as well

 

[DHK]

It's unrelated.

I know DHK somehow argued by referring to it...
But, you would have been wise to ignore the relationship....it doesn't exist.
They are unrelated...
Altogether.

It was pointless for DHK to mention it...
It was pointless to aknowledge the relationship.
There is no similarity.
None at all.

His prayer in John 17 is CLEARLY limited in scope...TWICE!

I appreciate your thorough answer. I never made a relation between Christ's High Priestly Prayer and Christ's prayer on the cross. Protestant did. I was simply replying to his post. So I suppose it sounds like I was making a relationship, but it wasn't intended.
Thank you for your reply.

 

[steaver]

"Christ died for ALL's sin, EXCEPT anyone's sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit's call," therefore not all sins have been died for and the atonement is limited.

Thank you.

The Archangel

Well. I will have to go with Jesus on this one. You are free willed to believe as you wish.......

 

[convicted1]

Well. I will have to go with Jesus on this one. You are free willed to believe as you wish.......

Wrong again!! BZZZZZZZZ!

Jesus said the Truth shall make you free. Jesus is the Truth, and no sinner has Jesus, therefore, no sinner is free....

 

[Inspector Javert]

I appreciate your thorough answer. I never made a relation between Christ's High Priestly Prayer and Christ's prayer on the cross. Protestant did. I was simply replying to his post. So I suppose it sounds like I was making a relationship, but it wasn't intended.
Thank you for your reply.

My bad....I'd read that a few days ago..
I thought I remembered you comparing them first.
Perhaps I should have looked it up first :thumbsup:

 

[The Archangel]

Well. I will have to go with Jesus on this one. You are free willed to believe as you wish.......

Do you realize what the word "Except" means?

If all sins are forgiven, there is no exception.

If all sins are forgiven--with the exception of one or some--then only some, not all, sins are forgiven.

If some sins are not forgiven, there is a "limit" to the atonement as not all sins are forgiven.

It's really simple. And, it's what the text you cited is saying.

The Archangel

 

[Yeshua1]

Limited Atonement is the only view--which is patently scriptural, by the way--that gives Jesus' death any accomplished meaning. What I mean is this: Limited Atonement accomplishes the salvation of some; un-limited atonement only makes atonement possible and accomplishes nothing.

The Archangel

That is why I asked DHK to give. to us, which he did do, how he saw limited atonement meaning, as many seem to misunderstand it to mean that God saw the death of Jesus only with a limited means to save sinners...

The truth is that while his death was sufficient to be able to save all sinners, it will only save those whom God intended his death to atone for, and those would be His elect and chosen in Christ...

 

[convicted1]

That is why I asked DHK to give. to us, which he did do, how he saw limited atonement meaning, as many seem to misunderstand it to mean that God saw the death of Jesus only with a limited means to save sinners...

The truth is that while his death was sufficient to be able to save all sinners, it will only save those whom God intended his death to atone for, and those would be His elect and chosen in Christ...

We aren't saved by His death, but His life. His death brought the atonement, but if He had not arisen, we'd still be in our sins...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

We aren't saved by His death, but His life. His death brought the atonement, but if He had not arisen, we'd still be in our sins...

Thats true:thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

We aren't saved by His death, but His life. His death brought the atonement, but if He had not arisen, we'd still be in our sins...

I would say we are saved by both. Actually Jesus is eternal life, He only died physically. Without that physical death, no one could be saved by His life. He gives this living water when we call upon Him by faith.

 

[PreachTony]

We aren't saved by His death, but His life. His death brought the atonement, but if He had not arisen, we'd still be in our sins...

I would say we are saved by both. Actually Jesus is eternal life, He only died physically. Without that physical death, no one could be saved by His life. He gives this living water when we call upon Him by faith.

I know I don't always agree with Willis, but he's right on this one. Paul even confirms as much in his letters to the church at Corinth.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

That 17th verse tells us that it took the raising of Christ up from the dead. Without the resurrection, we would have no hope. As he wrote in verse 19, we would be most miserable.

 

[convicted1]

I know I don't always agree with Willis, but he's right on this one. Paul even confirms as much in his letters to the church at Corinth.


That 17th verse tells us that it took the raising of Christ up from the dead. Without the resurrection, we would have no hope. As he wrote in verse 19, we would be most miserable.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

I would say we are saved by both. Actually Jesus is eternal life, He only died physically. Without that physical death, no one could be saved by His life. He gives this living water when we call upon Him by faith.

Wrong again. If Jesus was not risen we'd still be in our sine....we are saved by His life. I live so ye can live also....