Why So Much Education?

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by buckster75:
Broadus,
Read all of what you quote.(so you don't lose all credibility.)

paidagogos said "This is seminary."
I think you misunderstood what I was saying to paidagogos. paidagogos used the word and I responded.

Broadus is correct in his understanding of my post--you are not. Seminary, as a formal educational institution, did not exist during the early church period. However, there was instruction of men to become pastors and teachers. This is comparible in concept and principle to seminary today. Your response was repartee, not rebuttal.

On what level do you propose to carry out this debate? Wisecracking or rational reasoning? Yeah, I did a few wisecracks too. You responded seriously to my repartee. However, once said, it is not something that argues or debates the finer points of nonsense. Asking the name of the seminary didn't win you any points.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by buckster75:
paidagogos

I don't know how this applies to anything said.

What? Define your antecedent.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by buckster75:
I said just as you knew SOME. I know SOME who went to school to avoid work.

So, how do you know?

 

[buckster75]

not sure what you ask.

 

[buckster75]

Paid:
Broad said "Buckster, What is your hangup that keeps reading "seminary" in every post? Paid referred to being trained "by godly men who have been trained by other godly men."

I did not have to read it you (Paid) used the word.

 

[buckster75]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
When I lived in another state, I was acquainted with a man, a self-professed preacher, who was continually saying that God told him things. He said that God told him to go and bury a Bible on the top of a mountain in Montana. His followers paid his expense to do this. IMHO, he had a nice expenses paid vacation to points west. This same man ran away with one of the women in his congregation. When the husband went to Florida and brought both of them back home, the self-styled preacher proclaimed that God told him to do it so that he could counsel folks with marriage problems. He said God spoke to him. So, how do you know? I call him a liar on the basis of God’s Word.

In my experience, some of those who cry the most loudly that God has spoken to them and is leading them are the very ones who are the most staunchly resisting the authority of the Word. Sometimes when one doesn’t want to submit to the authority of the Word of God, he claims special, personal revelation or direction from God. This smells of rebellion and self-willfulness. What is the inference of II Peter 1:21?

As a believer, I fully affirm the leading and teaching of the Holy Spirit. However, this leading and illumination is through the Word and in accordance with the Word. The Holy Spirit’s leading is never contrary to the Word. Unfortunately, many people use the excuse that God spoke to me or the Holy Spirit led me to justify their own way, to escape the authority of the Word, or to portray a special spiritual ascendancy over others. I find this despicable and loathsome. God’s Word and the leading of the Holy Spirit are too sacred and important for such human trifling.

I am not sure how you apply this to what we are talking about.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by buckster75:
not sure what you ask.

Ask what? Use quote function.

 

[buckster75]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by buckster75:
I said just as you knew SOME. I know SOME who went to school to avoid work.

So, how do you know? </font>[/QUOTE]Know what?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by buckster75:
So if you stick with your refute you are saying the educated are the lazy ones.

Working smart is not always force times distance such as shoveling manure. Working smart actually accomplishes more than what one could posisbly do alone. Working alone is the problem with non-leaders who do not understand leadership. They will pat themselves on the back so hard telling themselves how hard they work but not accomplishing much.

For example: I took a company and turned it around in two weeks after it had been losing money for the previous five years. The manager before me worked at least 12 hours each day while at the same time not knowing what to do and unable to turn the company around. In fact his hard work paid off by losing money each month. I worked on the average of 8.5 hours. It became the most profitable in the company and had increased the most in sales in one year. We took that company from second from the bottom to third from the top in one year. It's not about hard work. It's about smart work.

Once I graduated from seminary I could write a much better sermon in less time than I had written a poorer sermon before. More education helped me to do things faster and with more ease.

Certainly, I wouldn't want an uneducated heart surgeon or undertaker to operate on my heart should I need that. The undertaker has seen a lot of hearts but he isn't qualified and not capable of doing what needs to be done.

When building a house I would rather pay a finish carpenter 35/hr. to do finish work than a laborer $10/hr because the finish carpenter wil get it done faster and better and cost me less than the laborer. The laborer may get the material on the wall but it will not be done right.

A person who is skilled will get much more done and do a better job in less time than an unskilled person.

 

[paidagogos]

A perusal of Scripture indicates plainly that God expects our best. How can we rationalize foregoing seminary as God's leading when it leaves us less equipped than we might have been. To parody the Army, our goal should be to be the best we can be for the glory of God. It follows that pursuing the best education made possible by the circumstances would be an integral part of this goal. IHMO, the Scriptural teaching is to become equipped. The Biblical pattern is to sit under the teaching of godly men. BTW, there is more to be gained here than the contents of books.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by buckster75:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by paidagogos:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by buckster75:
I said just as you knew SOME. I know SOME who went to school to avoid work.

So, how do you know? </font>[/QUOTE]Know what? </font>[/QUOTE]What you claim to know!

 

[buckster75]

I know SOME who went to school to avoid work.

 

[buckster75]

I think you (paid) got off on a comment I made to John thinking it was for you.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Rhet,
I would tell your friend first of all there should be no such thing a just a pastor.The pastor of a church has many duties which your friend may not be familiar with,going to Bible College and seminary is a way of getting the proper tools to deal with all of the situations that are bound to come up in the everyday activities of an average pastor.

Perhaps you can ask him to think in terms of being the pastor of a church that runs about 150 active members.Among these members is a family of five,a husband who is a truck driver,wife is stay at home mom of 3 children a boy 7,two girls one 10 years old and the other 14 years old. We have another family of 4, father is an accountant, mom is a school teacher(elementary),15 year old twins one boy,one girl. The list goes on, some of the families are good and some are barely functional.There is the normal amount of everything good and bad going on in all of the families.Some folks are in financial troubles,some have marriages that are going south for a variety of reasons. One family has a gay son, another family a gay daughter. Some of the deacons in the church have a good view of thier responsibilities and other deacons want to run the church.Not to mention getting the discipling done, the sunday school properly run and administrated by the Sunday school superintendant and SS teachers, oh by the way make sure someone is in the nursery.In addition make sure the visitation program is running smoothly.There are a couple of dozen other things to look after and I need to look after my family.
Question is what is the best way to prepare for all of this I don't want to go insane or quit.It will also be helpful for me to get a pastor mentor while I am in Bible College and Seminary to help prepare myself.Then I have the wonderful reasurrance that it's what I learn after I know it all that really counts.

There is no higher calling than to be the pastor of a church. Not only is it a great honor, it is an awesome responsibility for it is to God you will answer.

 

[preachinjesus]

For the young person who sent the original email...I'd counsel him to get a degree from a seminary for the betterment of his family situation. Simple facts are that someone with a seminary degree (no matter how paltry of an institution) has a better opportunity to maintain a steady income level than one without.

With the proliferation of easy to get distance learning degrees, churches and ministries are going to look only at candidates with education/degrees and leave the rest out. While I understand and appreciate the view that you can be as effective a pastor w/o a degree as with...do you really think you'll be in the same church all your life?

Furthermore, how in the world is this young man going to learn some basic ministry practices such as:

1. how to set up/organize an effective Sunday School/small groups program
2. proper hermeneutical methods for teaching
3. langauges
4. how to administrate a church effectively
5. how to lead a staff
5. the legal ramifications of xyz happening
etc.

 

[Broadus]

Originally posted by Rhetorician:
Gentlement, Gentlemen:
We have greatly traveled much since the below OP was written! May I request in Christian gentleness that we come back to a germane discussion that might help this young brother?

"A young unnamed brother just sent me a PM and asked why one needs 8 years of education just to pastor a church anyway?

With the costs of school being what they are?

With ones own family circumstances not being conducive to going to a seminary and studying full time?

"Just to pastor;" the price seems a bit much, does it not?

Now all of you know what and how I feel!!! He needs your responses and input.

Help the young guy out--but do it in love!!

sdg!

rd"

Sincerely,

rd

In our day of accessible training, to refuse it probably indicates either an naive understanding of the ministry and the Scriptures or a laziness which refuses the hard labor of mental and spiritual work.

As I said earlier, the highest calling necessitates the highest training which one can obtain. An earlier time in our culture, that may have meant that seminary training was unavailable to most. That is no longer the case.

Considering the costs of education, I say, consider the costs of not getting the education. One's personal abilities are stunted and one's congregation loses on the type of ministry which could be carried out. It does require sacrifice. Financially, I am trying to play "catch up" since I was paying for an education and receiving less pay while others my age were paying off their mortgages and saving for retirement. Still, I wouldn't trade.

The family situation needs clarification. I moved from a settled pastorate to Kentucky as a forty-something with a wife and 3 teenage daughters. It wasn't "conducive," but we did it and, thanks be to God, my family was never without material needs provided for. Sometimes a little faith may be required. Additionally, distance education may be the ticket, but such requires a great deal of personal discipline. However, "buyer beware": make sure the DE institution is quality.

"Just to pastor" betrays a naivity concerning the ministry. How about "just to be a physician," "just to be a lawyer," "just to be President"?

I've about "posted out" on this thread. I'll catch you on another!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[buckster75]

Originally posted by Broadus:
Buckster,

I take it that you are not a minister of the gospel. How long have you been a believer and have been studying the Scriptures? I would encourage you to be more diligent in your search of the Scriptures. You do not have the Holy Spirit as the apostles of the first century did (when you raise the dead and verifiably heal the sick, then I'll change my mind!), but you do have the completed Word of God which they did not have. Study it, my friend. It's our greatest material treasure!

Bill

before you go can you make clear what source these multiply spirits are from.

 

[RayMarshall19]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
A perusal of Scripture indicates plainly that God expects our best. How can we rationalize foregoing seminary as God's leading when it leaves us less equipped than we might have been. To parody the Army, our goal should be to be the best we can be for the glory of God. It follows that pursuing the best education made possible by the circumstances would be an integral part of this goal. IHMO, the Scriptural teaching is to become equipped. The Biblical pattern is to sit under the teaching of godly men. BTW, there is more to be gained here than the contents of books.

I would like to address this post:

Originally posted by paidagogos:
A perusal of Scripture indicates plainly that God expects our best. How can we rationalize foregoing seminary as God's leading when it leaves us less equipped than we might have been.

reply: I AGREE GOD EXPECTS OUR BEST, BUT WHO ANNOINTED YOU WITH THE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE WHAT OUR "BEST" IS OR THAT "FOREGOING SEMINARY" "LEAVES US LESS EQUIPPED THAN WE MIGHT HAVE BEEN"?

To parody the Army, our goal should be to be the best we can be for the glory of God.

reply: I FAIL TO SEE THE PARODY.

It follows that pursuing the best education made possible by the circumstances would be an integral part of this goal.

reply: "IT FOLLOWS"?!? ONCE AGAIN, WHO ANNOINTED YOU TO MAKE THIS DECISION FOR US ALL?

the Scriptural teaching is to become equipped. The Biblical pattern is to sit under the teaching of godly men.

reply: IS "BIBLICAL PATTERN" SYNONYMOUS WITH "SPIRIT-LED MANNER"? I DON'T THINK SO.

LET ME SHARE MY OPINION ABOUT A PASTOR'S "EQUIPMENT". GOD'S WILL IS A TARGET TO HIT, NOT A VESSEL TO BE FILLED. MORE IS NOT BETTER, AND CAN EVEN BE A LOT WORSE, IF IT IS OUTSIDE GOD'S "BULL'S-EYE".

I HAVE NO DOUBT THAT FORMAL, SEMINARY EDUCATION IS GOD'S WILL FOR MANY PASTORS. BUT I ALSO HAVE NO DOUBT THAT IT IS NOT GOD'S WILL FOR OTHERS. YOUR INSUATION THAT A PASTOR WHO IS NOT FORMALLY EDUCATED IS SOMEHOW "LESS EQUIPPED" OFFENDS ME.

I DON'T MEAN FOR THE FOLLOWING COMMENT TO APPLY TO ANYONE IN PARTICULAR, BUT I'LL TAKE AN HUMBLE PASTOR WITH A SINGLE, SELF-TAUGHT "ARROW" IN X-RING OVER A SELF-IMPORTANT SEMINARIAN WITH A SLOP JAR FULL OF DEGREES ANY DAY.

[Typing in all caps is a violation of BB rules. It is considered shouting and not appropriate. Thank you].

[ January 27, 2006, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: TomVols ]

 

[here now]

Hi John,

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by here now:
The professions you have stated above are all fleshly occupations. Being a true minister of God is a Spiritual thing.

I disagree. If one is in a profession s/he feels called to, then it is not a fleshy profession. A fleshy profession is someone doing a job for the sake of doing the job. For example, when I flipped burgers in high school to save money for college, it was a fleshy job, and it was flesh of beef, to boot. However, my career is me engaged in the profession that my Lord has called me into.

*********************************************
here now's reply:
I didn't mean to imply that God does not call some people to be in particular professions. I know that He does.

What I mean by "fleshly" professions, is that, there is nothing spiritual about them. The Holy Spirit does not "teach" them what they need to know to do their job.

The Holy Ghost does not teach anyone how to be a doctor, teacher, attorney or veternarian. But He does teach the True minister.

But a true minister being equipped begins with the Holy Spirit. It does not end there. The Holy Spirit is not Santa Claus or an ATM machine. In fact, the presumption 'I don't need a formal education because the Holy Spirit will give me everything I need to know' borders on testing God, a scriptural violation. Not to mention, it's an indicator of laziness and an uncommitted heart. In short, it's bad fruit. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not saying that, no minister should be formally educated. But, there are some ministers that have had no formal education, who are absolutely God called. There is that "in the field" education. Sometimes the preparation starts at an early age. The Holy Ghost can use many sources to educate.

[ January 25, 2006, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: here now ]

 

[Johnv]

here now, I would hope that all who enter the ministry are God-called. The fact that there are ministers without formal education doesn't make them any less called. But it may serve to leave them less equipped and less approved.