Why the Blindness?

[Tom Butler]

Skypair said

For the umteenth time -- God's CHARACTER is immutable. Where oh where do you get this idea that God doesn't change His mind, for instance??

Here's where I got the idea:

I Sam 15:29 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."

I'll deal in detail with your other comments later.

I'll also reply to Allan later as well.
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[psalms109:31]

Change mind

Skypair said


Here's where I got the idea:

I Sam 15:29 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."

I'll deal in detail with your other comments later.

I'll also reply to Allan later as well.
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I totally agree with the scripture God doesn't change His mind, He is going to save those who trust in His Son and condemn those who don't.

With that scripture How do you explain this.

Exodus 32:
9 "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."

11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

 

[Tom Butler]

...you have also boxed God in to a corner.

God can not know unless He makes it happen but God can not obtain any new information either therefore nothing can happen for Him to know about.
God can not set or decree something into beinging and know nothing of it till it is created. That makes absolutely no sense.

That God can gain no new information pertaining to that which He has determind to set forth which is according to His own council and IMHO a more accurate rendering.

Would this be more accurate Tom for you or not, cause you gave quite a paradox (IMO) in your post. I could be wrong and it wouldn't be the first time but it is a rarity

I don't buy the premise that God can't know something until he has determined to make it happen. We're getting into an area beyond my ability to comprehend. But what God has determined and knows has always been determined and known. How far back is that? Don't have a clue.

Our finite minds want to fix a point in eternity where it happened, and I confess that's beyond me.

 

[Tom Butler]

I totally agree with the scripture God doesn't change His mind, He is going to save those who trust in His Son and condemn those who don't.

With that scripture How do you explain this.

Exodus 32:
9 "I have seen these people," the LORD said to Moses, "and they are a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation."

11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

Don't think you can limit God's immutability to salvation and condemnation. If he doesn't change his mind, he doesn't change his mind about anything.

That being the case, the passage in Exodus 32 must be interpreted in the light of I Sam 15:29.

 

[psalms109:31]

verse

Don't think you can limit God's immutability to salvation and condemnation. If he doesn't change his mind, he doesn't change his mind about anything.

That being the case, the passage in Exodus 32 must be interpreted in the light of I Sam 15:29.

So how do you see it through the light of that verse?

But actually we should look at sam 15:29 through the light of exodus 32. God has His word in a certain order for a reason.

Jesus said to the disciple's we are going to the other side of the lake, river or what ever. They doubted Jesus because of the storm. They had little faith. The centurian just earlier had more faith then those who were called.

God said He was going to take them to the Land of milk and honey, even if there was only two left of that generation that can enter the promise land.

God doesn't change His mind those who put thier trust in Jesus will be saved.

 

[Tom Butler]

Skypair said:

For the umteenth time -- God's CHARACTER is immutable. Where oh where do you get this idea that God doesn't change His mind, for instance?? Where do you get the notion that God did not say "Let us make man in our own image" when one microsecond He had not decided or collaborated with Himself to do so??

Answered in Posts 141 and 144

Calvin tries to limit God's omniscience by saying that God had to control everything in order to know what will happen. Now does that seem right to you? That He couldn't know unless He determined it to happen?

I don't know what Calvin said. That's not what I'm saying. You're right, it doesn't seem right because it's not right. I repeat what I said in a post to Allan: What God determines and what he knows have always been determined and known. How far back is that? My mind cannot comprehend.

The creation of time does allow for things to be unknowable at one time and knowable at another. But God, at some point in time, make His plan seeing all of time and then set it in motion. That's why we say He knows the beginning from the end. But consider -- there is NO end to eternity. Does that mean He doesn't yet know about eternity? or hasn't decided about it? Might He come to the end of man and decide to create something else somewhere else?

I refer you to my comment above. Yep, you're an Open Theist, for sure.

 

[Tom Butler]

So how do you see it through the light of that verse?

But actually we should look at sam 15:29 through the light of exodus 32. God has His word in a certain order for a reason.

Jesus said to the disciple's we are going to the other side of the lake, river or what ever. They doubted Jesus because of the storm. They had little faith. The centurian just earlier had more faith then those who were called.

God said He was going to take them to the Land of milk and honey, even if there was only two left of that generation that can enter the promise land.

God doesn't change His mind those who put thier trust in Jesus will be saved.

I Sam 15:29 is a clearer, unequivocal statement by God, so it is the controlling verse. In Exodus 32, God is speaking to Moses to communicate his anger, and doesn't need for Moses to get out of the way. He is speaking anthromorphically.

As far as the remainder of your comment, I'm clueless as to what you're talking about, and what it has to do with what we're talking about.

 

[psalms109:31]

I agree

God doesn't change His mind any where, not even in that verse.

He said He was going to take them to the promise land He did, even though there was 2 left in that generation.

He said they are going to the other sise of the lake they did.

Just like God said that if we trust in the Lord He will lead us.

It is all about faith. God is faithful to His word, and whosever believes shall be saved.

We either trust God's word as Moses did or you don't.

13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.'

 

[skypair]

I Sam 15:29 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."

I beg you, Tom -- look at the context. Samuel is telling Saul that God has condemned him. In this instance, Saul is begging forgiveness (15:25) and Samuel is telling him that God does not view Saul's repentance as a man might.

And what then do you say to Jonah? God changed his mind and didn't destroy Nineveh, right? Or when God repented of creating man, Gen 6:7?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Tom,

I refer you to my comment above. Yep, you're an Open Theist, for sure.

OK, we got one thing cleared up anyway!! Who gets the "points," you or me?? :laugh:

Yes, I agree that etenity is "incomprehensible." But time isn't. If we can think in terms of timing, then we can understand that God made some decisions in some order. If they were always fully formed, then that would, to me, imply another God -- a "God of Gods" Who did have a chronological decision matrix. The intricacy of creation was "intelligent" -- thought out, don't you think??

skypair

 

[Tom Butler]

I beg you, Tom -- look at the context. Samuel is telling Saul that God has condemned him. In this instance, Saul is begging forgiveness (15:25) and Samuel is telling him that God does not view Saul's repentance as a man might.

And what then do you say to Jonah? God changed his mind and didn't destroy Nineveh, right? Or when God repented of creating man, Gen 6:7?

skypair

I understand the context of I Sam 15:29. I also understand that when God himself says he does not change his mind, he is stating as truth regarding his immutability. He did not say, "in this situation, I'm not going to change my mind."

He says he is not like a man, who can lie, who can change his mind. That's a pretty solid statement to me.

Here's a good definition of repenting. When man repents he changes his will. When God repents he wills a change.

 

[Tom Butler]

God doesn't change His mind any where, not even in that verse.

Exactly. I agree.

 

[Tom Butler]

Yes, I agree that etenity is "incomprehensible." But time isn't. If we can think in terms of timing, then we can understand that God made some decisions in some order. If they were always fully formed, then that would, to me, imply another God -- a "God of Gods" Who did have a chronological decision matrix. The intricacy of creation was "intelligent" -- thought out, don't you think??
skypair

To answer your comments, I would have to know the secret council of God himself. Maybe you and I can meet at the throne and ask him one day, "Say, how'd you do that?"

It help me some to understand that there is a logical order to his decisions without requiring a chronological order. But even that doesn't provide much help.

Some things we simply infer from what he know of his nature and his attributes.

 

[skypair]

To answer your comments, I would have to know the secret council of God himself. Maybe you and I can meet at the throne and ask him one day, "Say, how'd you do that?"

It help me some to understand that there is a logical order to his decisions without requiring a chronological order. But even that doesn't provide much help.

Some things we simply infer from what we know of his nature and his attributes.

Well, that pretty much answers the OP "Why the blidness" then.

skypair

 

[Tom Butler]

Well, that pretty much answers the OP "Why the blindness" then.

skypair

Glad to help.

 

[webdog]

I was just reading Exodus this morning, the "blindness" thread came to mind...

Exo 22:22 "You must not mistreat any widow or fatherless child.
Exo 22:23 If you do mistreat them, they will no doubt cry to Me, and I will certainly hear their cry.
Exo 22:24 My anger will burn, and I will kill you with the sword; then your wives will be widows and your children fatherless.

Does God actually do the killing with the sword? I think "blindness" and "hardening" can be looked at in this light. How does God blind and harden? I think it's in the same sense the He "kills with the sword".

From Gill...
and I will kill you with the sword; with the sword of death, says the Targum of Jonathan; it designs one of God's sore judgments, the sword of an enemy; the meaning is, that when such evils should become frequent among them, God would suffer a neighbouring nation to break in upon them in an hostile way, and put them to the sword;

 

[johnp.]

Hello JD.

I haven't read the thread, what are the best answer to date on 'Why does God blind people (talking about spiritual blindness)?'?

My initial response would be to say that common sense is being negated.

1. After a couple of demonstrations of God's power it would have been only common sense for Pharoah to free the slaves. After third or fourth even.

2. The harder a man's heart is the more wrath is due. The punishment of each individual is predestined so the crime must fit the punishment?

If men are not born spiritually blind, why would God render them blind, if what He really wants to do is save them?

If He wants all saved why does He create those He knows are going to Hell?

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The delusion has been sent and the Church is going for it, love is God.

john.

 

[J.D.]

Hello JD.

I haven't read the thread, what are the best answer to date on 'Why does God blind people (talking about spiritual blindness)?'?

My initial response would be to say that common sense is being negated.

1. After a couple of demonstrations of God's power it would have been only common sense for Pharoah to free the slaves. After third or fourth even.

2. The harder a man's heart is the more wrath is due. The punishment of each individual is predestined so the crime must fit the punishment?



If He wants all saved why does He create those He knows are going to Hell?



The delusion has been sent and the Church is going for it, love is God.

john.

John, good to see you back. You're my hero. I read Pink's and Gill's assesments of the question at hand and they say that the blinding is not active but passive - the only thing God does to blind them is to let them have their own way and continue in their adamic blind state into which they were born. Hardening might be a different issue. ??

 

[skypair]

johnp,

Why the blindness? Because some fail to believe parts of the "Word." Israel not believing Christ and, today, not believing the NT, for example.

We are ALL subject to these "blind spots." Some blind spots have worse consequences than others, obviously.

skypair

 

[Rippon]

When vessels of wrath fit for destruction are mentioned in Romans 9 ( the rock of reprobation ) -- those folks destined for eternal woe are not merely experiencing "blind spots " . All regenerate ones have blind spots , but not to be compared with those whose minds have been given over so that they will not believe ( caused by the Lord Himself ) .