Why the Blindness?

[Allan]

Hello Allan,

>God has written the 'choices' each man will make in his life today. God knows ALL things.

There is a vast difference between God knowing something will happen (being omniscient) and God pre-determining that thing will happen (predestination). Of course I agree that God is omniscient. But I do not believe that means a man’s choices are therefore already determined by God, or “written in the stars,” or “set in stone,” or any of the other ways of expressing the idea of something being already predetermined by God and therefore immutable. They are “choices” precisely because we each can choose one of two paths. If our path was already chosen for us by God in the beginning, then we have no choice at all.

I think you are reading the verse in the Revelation to mean something it doesn’t. God has been writing the names of the righteous in the Book of Life since the foundation of the world, they were not prewritten based on God’s omniscience as you suggest. If that were true, then what about those whose names are blotted out of the Book? Did God make a mistake or not foresee their fall from grace or change his mind? God knew they would fall from grace and yet he wrote their names down anyway. So perhaps this Book of Life is not the prewritten and predetermining decree you are suggesting it is but a living, growing and ever changing roll call of the saints.

In Christ,
Deborah

So you beleiver that even though God knows exactly what will happen, there is still a chance it will or could not happen?

ie. Joseph of the OT could have not become Pharoah's second in command and saved his family.

ie. Abraham could have not been a man of faith

ie. Paul of Tarsus becoming a believer and an Apostle to the Gentiles.


If that were true then you would have a very hard time explaining biblical prophesy. I am curious however, do you what is or believe in Open Theism? It 'appears' to be where you are arguing from, but since I don't know you it might be that I am just misreading you.

 

[Jarthur001]

But remember this sky, many believe that regeneration and salvation happen at the same time (RB does) however, the logical order would presume to be (in their view) regeneration then salvation though it is practically simultanious.

Allan,


Let me add to this. I would say that MOST Calvinist believe it happens nearly at the same moment. The eyes are open and one believes. However, most also allow for a small time frame to take place before one believes. Small, as in a few moments. In other words, it is so close it seems simultaneous.

 

[Jarthur001]

Regeneration prior to salvation is what is known as Monergism. All TRUE Calvinists (Particular Redemptionists) believe in Monergism (at least, I have never heard of any or talked to any).

Monergism is not tied to the atonement. It is "WHERE DEPRAVITY & IRRESISTIBLE GRACE MEET ".....(from one of my columns)

Its the power found in salvation. The atonement (either limited on unlimited) can only take place, because God has the power in Him to save. Though the atonement is very much part of salvation, this one point has nothing to do with Mans will. All other points address mans will, if it is bound, controlled, or free.

 

[Allan]

Allan,
Let me add to this. I would say that MOST Calvinist believe it happens nearly at the same moment. The eyes are open and one believes. However, most also allow for a small time frame to take place before one believes. Small, as in a few moments. In other words, it is so close it seems simultaneous.

Very true. I reread it and saw I left out the word 'about' when speaking about the time frame of regeneration and salvation. It should have said " many believe that regeneration and salvation happen at [about] the same time".

I have actaully met a few who believe it can last as long as years or even decades. But again they are not MOST or the Majority.

 

[Allan]

Monergism is not tied to the atonement. It is "WHERE DEPRAVITY & IRRESISTIBLE GRACE MEET ".....(from one of my columns)

Its the power found in salvation. The atonement (either limited on unlimited) can only take place, because God has the power in Him to save. Though the atonement is very much part of salvation, this one point has nothing to do with Mans will. All other points address mans will, if it is bound, controlled, or free.

Instead of 'controlled' I would rephrase it to 'limited'. But that is me

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm getting in late on this discussion, but I thought I'd throw out this passage for you.

John 12:37-40, says,

37 But though he had done many miracles before them, yet they did not believe on him. (Note the "did not believe.")

38 That the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which spake, Lord who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed. (Isa.53)

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

V.41 points back to Isaiah 6, where God called Isaiah to be his prophet. He basically told him there, you preach, but nobody will listen, because I have made them unable to.

Anybody want to take a crack at this passage?

If God called you to preach, or to be a missionary, and told you that there'd be no converts because he had made it so, that would be a bummer, wouldn't it?

 

[skypair]

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they should not see with their eyes nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Anybody want to take a crack at this passage?

It is interesting to me that not only was Christ a "stumbling stone" but so was the law. As Paul was known to say in Romans, that which was given for righteousness (the law) was death unto me.

The law. Two tablets of stone. They wanted to take the "stones" instead of the faith in God for righteousness. Therefore, they could not believe God.

skypair

 

[Pilgrimer]

Hello Allan,

>So you beleive that even though God knows exactly what will happen, there is still a chance it will or could not happen?

This is not that difficult. God being so intelligent and knowing you so perfectly that He already knows exactly what choice you are going to make of your own free will is a very different thing from saying God or destiny made you choose it.

God did not elect or choose to save you, Allan, or me, or any of us specifically. God elected to save “whosoever will” hear His voice and obey. THAT is the man God elected or chose from the very beginning for salvation. Now if you have chosen of your own free will to hear and obey the Word of God (and everyone is free to make that choice, no one is “destined” to heaven or hell), if you have chosen to hear and obey, then you are counted among those men (whoever they may be) that God chose or elected to save even before there was a world. God's elect are not some roll of names prewritten in heaven. God's elect are all those "whosoever will" put their trust in Him.

“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”
Revelation 22:17

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Rippon]

God's elect are not some roll of names prewritten in heaven. God's elect are all those "whosoever will" put their trust in Him.



In Christ,
Deborah

Now come on Deborah . I know you could cite some Scripture which contradicts your idea .

 

[Pilgrimer]

Hello Rippon,

>Now come on Deborah . I know you could cite some Scripture which contradicts your idea .

I can cite Scripture which I've heard others hold up as evidence for the predestination of the individual, but I believe those Scriptures speak of what the faithful are predestined to . . . not who are predestined to be faithful.

Allow me to offer an example. Take this verse:

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Here's the question: What is that verse saying God before ordained? Us? Or the way those of us in Christ should walk?

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Brother Bob]

Hello Rippon,

>Now come on Deborah . I know you could cite some Scripture which contradicts your idea .

I can cite Scripture which I've heard others hold up as evidence for the predestination of the individual, but I believe those Scriptures speak of what the faithful are predestined to . . . not who are predestined to be faithful.

Allow me to offer an example. Take this verse:

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Here's the question: What is that verse saying God before ordained? Us? Or the way those of us in Christ should walk?

In Christ,
Deborah

Right on Deborah.............:thumbs:

 

[Tom Butler]

It is interesting to me that not only was Christ a "stumbling stone" but so was the law. As Paul was known to say in Romans, that which was given for righteousness (the law) was death unto me.

The law. Two tablets of stone. They wanted to take the "stones" instead of the faith in God for righteousness. Therefore, they could not believe God.

skypair

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. John 12:37-40 says they would not believe because they could not, and that it was a sovereign act of God to blind them. If I read you right, you are saying they could not because they would not. Would you clarify?

 

[Rippon]

Hello Rippon,




"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Here's the question: What is that verse saying God before ordained? Us? Or the way those of us in Christ should walk?

In Christ,
Deborah

You quoted Ephesians 2:10 . It is referring to the Lord preparing beforehand -- in advance -- appointed to do them ( the good works ) . He makes everything ready for those who He draws to Himself ( and of course He deset his love on ones of His choosing before the world was made ) .

Some other verses are related to the one in Ephesians 2:10 .

Philippians 1:6 : being confident of this , that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus .

Philippians 2:13 : for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose .

 

[Pilgrimer]

Hello Rippon,

>You quoted Ephesians 2:10 .

My apologies. I am normally very careful to provide references.

>I can cite Scripture which I've heard others hold up as evidence for the predestination of the individual, but I believe those Scriptures speak of what the faithful are predestined to . . . not who are predestined to be faithful . . . Allow me to offer an example. Take this verse . . .

>It is referring to the Lord preparing beforehand -- in advance -- appointed to do them ( the good works ) . He makes everything ready for those who He draws to Himself ( and of course He deset his love on ones of His choosing before the world was made ) . . . Some other verses are related to the one in Ephesians 2:10 . . . Philippians 1:6 : being confident of this , that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus . . . Philippians 2:13 : for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose .

I'm afraid I can't quite follow your logic here, but I think you may have just demonstrated my point. I think Ephesians 2:10 says that it's the good works that God before ordained . . . while you appear to conclude that Ephesians 2:10 says it's who will walk in good works that God before ordained. There is a drastic difference there, and I just don't think your exegesis is correct.

Nor do I think the passages from Philippians supports predestination of the individual. They speak of God's present work of redemption in the life of the believer which He begins and which He will finish, they don't say anything about the recipient of that work being predestined to receive it.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[MB]

(words in blue = J.D.'s response to MB)

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.D.
This is an issue which presents a conundrum for theologians of all persuasions.

Why does God blind people (talking about spiritual blindness)?

Rejection and unbelief.

I would think that rejection and unbelief are symptoms of blindness, not causes.

All men can see however they need to be told the gospel inorder to see it's truth.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil
If man couldn't see the light how would he know not to come to the light that his deeds be seen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.D.
If men have free will, doesn't this blinding render them unable to exercise their free will?

The blinding of the Jews was temporary not permanent.


Let's say that's true. Was their free will taken away during the period of blindness? What would have happened to them if they had died while still in that blindness?

The only people the bible says were blinded were Jews and they were blinded because of their unbelief.
There freewill has nothing to do with choosing Christ. We don't need to choose Christ because we have been chosen by Him first. Freewill is only to coose sin. All we can choose with freewill is sin and rebellion both the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.D.
If men are unable to repent by their own nature, why does God blind them, seeing they are already condemned by their own unbelief?


Men are not unable to repent

This question is posed to my fellow Calvinists.

That's OK I'd like to answer it further if you don't mind. There is not one scripture in the Bible that says man is disabled in any way from responding to the gospel. So much for the Sola scriptura of Calvinist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.D.
If men are born spiritually blind, does God render them "doubly" blind. If so, what purpose does that serve?


Men are not born spiritually blind.

Then why did Jesus say they must be born again before they could see the Kingdom of God? Are you denying original sin? Are you saying that infants and/or small children are not in need of grace?

No one is going to see the Kingdom unless they are born again because if we are born again we are saved. Spiritual death is separation from God nothing more. It doesn't ressemble physcial death at all and scripture never said it does. Spiritual death is being Godless. Scripture has never said that man is disabled in any way because of it. Freewill is the choice to choose to sin and we all must have it because it isn't God's will that we sin at all.
Sin is rebellion it's what keeps us from being saved. Sin is why we don't have the righteousness we need to be saved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.D.
If men are not born spiritually blind, why would God render them blind, if what He really wants to do is save them?


The words "spiritually blind" do not appear in scripture together.

Neither do the words "triune God" appear together. Must not be true then.?

There also is no such precept. The trinity is taught though not called the trinity in scripture.
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Quote:
Just show one scripture that suggest men are born blind.

Originally Posted by J.D.
This should be a real scrambled egg.

Shortcut to my belief: I believe in reprobation of the non-elect. All men are blinded first by their own fallen nature, but the non-elect are additionaly blinded supernaturally so as to mark them against the work of the Spirit, and the aid of angels.

Any thoughts?

Do you have support for such a belief?

Just a nutty theory that's been kicked around the church for two thousand years or so. It's called the Doctrine of Reprobation.

What Church is that? two thousands years is a long time to misunderstand the scriptures.
G96
ἀδόκιμος
adokimos
ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.
You believe that men are reprobate rejected from Salvation. Why would God do that when it's His will is that all men come to Him?.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

We are all born in sin with a sin nature yet none of us is disabled from coming to Christ once we have been convinced of Him. The lack of knowledge of Jesus is the only disability I know of. It's cure is easy all we have to do is listen.

So there's nothing supernatural about getting saved? We just need to listen, and then the knowledge (facts) of salvation makes us saved if we have the good sense and intellect to receive it. Hum! and all this time I've been giving God all the credit!

MB

JD you're jumping to conclusions there my friend I didn't say that, you did. Man doesn't choose Christ, God has already chosen us in Christ. Man's freewill is to choose to sin and rebel against God. Salvation is all of God. It is the Holy Spirit that convinces us of the truth while still in our sins. It is Him that convicts us of our sins. once convinced we believe and once convicted we repent. The only thing man can do is prevent this from happening by not comming to the light, or not listening to the gospel. God isn't dependant on man for anything concerning the mans Salvation.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The underlined in the verse above is the faith we are saved by. Even though we believe of our selves it makes no difference. We are saved by the righteous faith of Christ. Our's simply isn't good enough to save anything. Yet we must still believe in order to be convicted and repent.
God authored the gospel that we might believe. The Holy Spirit does in deed work to convince us through the hearing of the gospel. If we do not choose to rebel or not listen then there is nothing left to choose we will hear it and we will be convinced. We will always have our freewill to chose to sin even after being saved. We do not choose Christ he has already chose us.
MB

 

[Pilgrimer]

>Man doesn't choose Christ, God has already chosen us in Christ

I think the reason the Gospel is to be preached to every creature is precisely because God has chosen to save anyone who chooses of their own free will to trust Him for their salvation . . .

Ergo, the Gospel truly is good news for all men.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[MB]

>Man doesn't choose Christ, God has already chosen us in Christ

I think the reason the Gospel is to be preached to every creature is precisely because God has chosen to save anyone who chooses of their own free will to trust Him for their salvation . . .

Ergo, the Gospel truly is good news for all men.

In Christ,
Deborah

Man is with out a doubt willing or, he isn't. I do not believe man is saved against his will, that isn't what I've said. What I have said is that we do not choose God. We only choose when we choose to rebel against Him. We receive a gift, we do not choose the gift. The giver has chosen the gift. The gift of life is ours, all we have to do is receive it. Sure we have to believe, sure we have to repent, but none of this is mans own work, it is the work of God. It is the Holy Spirit that convinces us so that we believe through the gospel. It is the holy Spirit that convicts us of our sins through the hearing of the gospel. The gospel was dictated to man by God. The gospel is God's word and is meant to convince us about Him, and convict us of our sins. If we are convinced and convicted we still have a choice. We can turn around and head right back into darkness and indeed many have done just that. We still have to accept the gift with the trust of a child.
Even after Salvation we still have a freewill and that freewill can only be used to sin. We will never loose our Salvation because we are kept by the power of God. To some there is a choice we have to make to have Salvation. Our choice I believe is always for the negative, because without the negative we have the positive. Sin is the choice because we have been chosen by God already.
This choosing of us by God is not particular, because Christ chose to die for the whole world.
MB

 

[Pilgrimer]

>What I have said is that we do not choose God

At some point we do. We just don't choose God first. First, God calls . . . a genuine wake up call, and those he calls must choose whether to answer, "Yea, Lord, here I am," or to turn a deaf ear and blind eye. Every time a man hears the Gospel, God is calling him home, and every time that man must choose to obey or walk away. Wasn't that your experience?

You say man cannot choose the good . . .

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that thou and thy seed may live." Deuteronomy 30:19

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[MB]

>What I have said is that we do not choose God

At some point we do. We just don't choose God first. First, God calls . . . a genuine wake up call, and those he calls must choose whether to answer, "Yea, Lord, here I am," or to turn a deaf ear and blind eye. Every time a man hears the Gospel, God is calling him home, and every time that man must choose to obey or walk away. Wasn't that your experience?

You say man cannot choose the good . . .

If man can do anything on his own to bring about his own Salvation then man's Salvation can't be all of God. Paul wrote,
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

In romans he said,
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Please read the chapters these passages are from.

My Experince was that I was always in a perdicament because of the sin. I was always in some sort of trouble. After a while I began to realize that I was in those perdicaments because of my choice to sin. Sin is always a choice and it always has a consequince that I didn't like very much. I don't know when I started to sin it seems I must have from the day I was born.
Sin is the only choice I can see for that period of my life because doing what was right was never a choice of mine. That has always been someone elses choice. If I did anything right it wasn't because it was my idea but the idea of those who made me do it. I felt I was a slave. After I had , had my fill of consequinces for my sins and reached a bottom so to speak did I become convinced of Christ. I knew about Him and I understood what Salvation was about and I knew why I didn't have Him. I decided to give up sin and stop my rebellion. Not because it was my idea but because I was convinced by God,

Any thing we would do would be a work towards our own Salvation

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that thou and thy seed may live." Deuteronomy 30:19

In Christ,
Deborah

This verse was about the physcial life of Jews. Before Christ there was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit. With out the Holy Spirit dwelling in us there is no Salvation. O.T. Saints were set aside in the bossom of Abraham for the message of Christ to be preached to them. No one is saved with out Christ.
MB

 

[skypair]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. John 12:37-40 says they would not believe because they could not, and that it was a sovereign act of God to blind them. If I read you right, you are saying they could not because they would not. Would you clarify?

Tom -- you make an assumption that is not expressed in the passage. You assume that their blindness is a "sovereign act of God." The truth is that they were hardened and blinded, like Pharoah, by constant rejection of God's Word/Spirit.

HardENING is a process just like molding clay, Jer 18, and the pot like unto God's work --- ".8 If that nation [person], against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them." But if they do not repent, they are merely made the harder for all God's effort. Thus, they could see because, when they had the chance, they would not see.

skypair