Why the hatred for Calvanism........

[Frogman]

I'm at WKU's Library and don't have my Bible; I will explain what I meant, but I may misquote scripture, if so, correct me as needed, or I will correct it later.

Romans 11 (can't remember the vs).

Even now there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

This is how I meant the last part of my last post Chappie.

Thanks for the complement, but we must realize: God knows those who are His.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

If Almighty God totally controls who gets into Heaven and reject all others He has made Himself an unjust God.

God's view of human beings as to their salvation is found in Acts 10:34. Almighty God speaking through Peter suggest the absolute purity of His justice. 'Of a truth I perceive that God is no respector of persons; but in every nation he who fears Him, and works righteousness, is accepted with Him.

Notice also a tad of 'good works' thrown into the mix just to confuse Calvinists.

The justice of God and the human effort of people. Work on it brethren.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Almighty God fully controls salvation. The one who believes receives His free and unmerited gift of everlasting life. [John 5:24] No one gets into Heaven without His approval. [John 5:22] His plan is glorious and we thank Him everyday.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
If Almighty God totally controls who gets into Heaven and reject all others He has made Himself an unjust God.

God's view of human beings as to their salvation is found in Acts 10:34. Almighty God speaking through Peter suggest the absolute purity of His justice. 'Of a truth I perceive that God is no respector of persons; but in every nation he who fears Him, and works righteousness, is accepted with Him.

Notice also a tad of 'good works' thrown into the mix just to confuse Calvinists.

The justice of God and the human effort of people. Work on it brethren.

Peter had been shown through direct revelation that the Gospel was for all nations, not just Israel. That's what he was saying in Acts 10:34.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Almighty God fully controls salvation. The one who believes receives His free and unmerited gift of everlasting life. [John 5:24] No one gets into Heaven without His approval. [John 5:22] His plan is glorious and we thank Him everyday.

This should make it easier to discuss...

John 5
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

 

[Frogman]

Notice also a tad of 'good works' thrown into the mix just to confuse Calvinists.

The justice of God and the human effort of people. Work on it brethren.

Can't reconcile it with scripture.

Rom. 11.1-10; 9.14-23
Galatians 1.4-10; 15,16; 2.4-9;

Where in scripture do we have a mixture of faith and works?

The only acceptable works to God is that of Christ. Upon this will I rest and this alone, if this cannot deliver me, there is nothing else I can see that will, If the revelation of the Son of God reconciling me to God (and not God to me, because it is man who fell not God) is not sufficient, then there is no sufficient amount of works for sinful man to do in order to acquire that which Christ could not accomplish.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Faith in Christ alone saves. Good works are the proof that our faith in genuine. Not one cintilla of 'human effort' improves our situation before Almighty God. But, God wants us to know that having 'good works' after salvation is fine. If we say we have faith and live like the Evil one then our faith is vain.

 

[Frogman]

In answer to "Why the hatred for Calvinism?"

Christ said, if they have hated me, they will hate you also.

Bro. Dallas

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Frogman:
In answer to "Why the hatred for Calvinism?"

Christ said, if they have hated me, they will hate you also.

Bro. Dallas

John Calvin was not standing in the audience that day...

 

[heartwelp]

The topic for this thread is "why the hatred for Calvanism?" I want to reply to that. I am a new believer, who had an emotional conversion experience. I was so overwhelmed with the love of God and His forgiveness that I couldn't sleep for about one week. I kept thinking "why isn't everybody talking about this? Why isn't it in the newspaper, on TV, on the radio, why doesn't Tracy Rowlett (news anchor) say, there is another wreck on I-20, but the good news is that Jesus died for your sins."

My entire life changed for the better. My 23 year marriage that was headed for divorce is now better than it ever was. I am a better wife, mother, teacher, friend. I don't even like the same T.V. shows that I used to watch. I read the Bible. I pray. Not only my did my actions change, but my reactions. I have more patience. I am kinder. I don't get angry toward people when they cut me off on the road or are rude to me.

Several months went by and then I realized that my church was Calvanistic. My reaction was confusion, self-doubt, fear. I would go to the store and wonder who are the elect? I felt weaker in my faith. I quit talking about God to people, because I was so confused, and if they were not one of elect then why talk about it? I talked to my pastor about it. He said, quote, "it is a hard pill to swallow." I wondered if I was really one of the elect. I wondered if I imagined my entire conversion experience. Guilt from past mistakes came rushing back to me. I feel sick to my stomach when I start thinking about predestination. I looked up passages in the Bible about it. Election is confusing to me. It is uncomfortable to me. It gives me a sense of hopelessness. I don't understand it.

These feelings are not hatred at all. I can only speak for myself as a new believer. I often wonder how other new believers feel.

I have been afraid to post on this board because I often see very harsh and negative reactions. I have been feeling so bad about predestination, that I didn't have the courage to post. However, if this post lets just one new believer know they are not alone, then I have done a good thing.

 

[tyndale1946]

I understand your fear and concern but men are not God and his ways and means are so far from ours we think we have to help him. I believe with all the conviction and belief I have that God will save all his children. He will not lose a one and will draw all the tokens of his love and affection to him.

Where men get into trouble and confusion is when they try to determine who they are? Who are the elect of God? Am I one? The scripture state that we know we have passed from death unto life in that we love the brethren. That is my case I love Gods people and only desire good for them whereever they are.

We can not make a sheep only God can... but we can feed the ones that God had made. The scriptures state time and time again that he as the good shepard came into this world to die for those sheep the Father gave him and none else. I believe they will be born again somewhere between conception and death because they belong to Jesus.

The angel told Joseph that Mary was carrying the Christ child... Jesus who would save his people from there sins. He did and all through the race of mankind they have been born again being his blood bought children. I'm never worried that God will lose a one that his son died for... They will never fall nor perish by their own hand or another. No one can touch their eternal life not even the devil as it belongs to God.

Take thy rest child of God and see and believe in the power of your Salvation. Take these words daily as your guide and know you are secure in the Lord.

Romans 8:28] And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[31] What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

[32] He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

[33] Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

[34] Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

[36] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

[37] Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

[38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

[39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord... Brother Glen

 

[KenH]

Jannie,

I am sorry that understanding doctrine is causing you some problems. You are not alone as it is not uncommon for Christians when first coming into an understanding of the doctrines of grace to react negatively to it. I heard the president of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals say that when he first came face to face with the truth of God's absolute sovereignty that he threw his Bible across the room.

Personally, God gave me a slow, steady transition from being a lost Pelagian to being a saved Calvinist, so I did not have a tumultuous emotional experience in accepting the Biblical truths of His sovereignty and His free grace and my inability to contribute anything to my salvation. I have found great comfort in the doctrines of God's amazing grace as I struggle with the remnants of the "old man" in my life on this earth.

I would recommend a book that is great for those who are just learning these great truths that might help you. It is Grace Unknown by R. C. Sproul.

I can also email you a rather lengthy article from the church where John Piper is the pastor that you might also find of great benefit. Just let me know and I will email it to you.

May God bless you as you are given greater understanding of His amazing grace and may He make your path to His true doctrine easier.

Ken

[ November 02, 2002, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[ForumChaplain]

Jannie:
Pay real close attention to what calvinism is really saying. Like, the doctrine if grace is not really the doctrine grace, it is the doctrine of grace if God happened to love you. A grace that he bestowed on some before they were even born.

Take the gospel, the good news: It is only good if God chose you out of the multitudes, otherwise the good news is horrible news. Their Good News is that if God happen to love you, you got it made, if he skipped over you, ((((FIRE!!!!!)))) FOR A LONG LONG, LONG TIME.

Now ain't that good news, well that depends on who you are...

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Jannie:
Pay real close attention to what calvinism is really saying. Like, the doctrine if grace is not really the doctrine grace, it is the doctrine of grace if God happened to love you. A grace that he bestowed on some before they were even born.

Take the gospel, the good news: It is only good if God chose you out of the multitudes, otherwise the good news is horrible news. Their Good News is that if God happen to love you, you got it made, if he skipped over you, ((((FIRE!!!!!)))) FOR A LONG LONG, LONG TIME.

Now ain't that good news, well that depends on who you are...

This is just my opinion, not necessarily a Biblical theme. But, IMO, if you aren't the elect, you probably won't give a hoot whether God loves you or anyone else. If you're worried about whether or not election affects your salvation, then that should tell you you're already one of His.

IMO that worry is also a sign that satan and his legions are attacking your faith. Given that may be true, I have 2 bits of advice for those in this predicament.

1. Take the advice of William Gurnall, the puritan: Tell satan, ok, fine, so let's assume for the sake of argument that I wasn't saved a year ago when I thought I was (or whenever). So I'll flee to Christ right now for my salvation and protection and be saved now. And as many times as satan makes you doubt, flee to Christ for your salvation once again.

I'm not saying (and neither was Gurnall) that you weren't saved before, or that you can keep getting saved over and over again. That isn't what this exercise is about. What matters is this: Whether you think you were saved a year ago, 10 years ago, or expect to be 10 minutes from now, what you've done is turn the enemy's attack against him by allowing it to drive you closer to Christ.

2. Consider what election really means: When you believed God's promises, you were made aware of your salvation, which is what caused your initial joy. Why, when you find out now that God's will is immutable, do you despair? Take comfort in the knowledge that you were not only saved through no thought, deed or effort of your own, but that no thought, deed, worry, or anything else can separate you from the love of Christ BECAUSE God's will cannot be undone by the will of man.

(Edited to be more Biblical regarding God's love.)

[ November 02, 2002, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

[Helen]

Ken wrote: Personally, God gave me a slow, steady transition from being a lost Pelagian to being a saved Calvinist, so I did not have a tumultuous emotional experience in accepting the Biblical truths of His sovereignty and His free grace and my inability to contribute anything to my salvation. I have found great comfort in the doctrines of God's amazing grace as I struggle with the remnants of the "old man" in my life on this earth.


Now that is a most amazing statement for a Cavinist to make! If you were saved due to God's election, Ken, it did not matter whether you understood that or not; it did not matter whether you were a Pelagian or Calvinist!

The only other option is that it did matter and you were then responsible for your own salvation by intellectually converting to Calvinism.

And again, we contribute nothing to our own salvation and we also are continually amazed by God's wonderful grace in our lives. Please do not think that response is the sole territory of Calvinists!

To Jannie:

Your doubt and your confusion and your fear are results of exposure to Calvinist doctrine that I have seen on a consistent basis from people. Your pastor is right "it is a hard pill to swallow." And that pill should never be swallowed. It should be rejected as a denial of God's character of love for the world (John 3:16).

But first of all, I want to congratulate you and thank you for having the courage to post what you did here. As a new Christian you must feel quite confused by a lot of the interpretations men give the Bible. Please, dear sister, go back to God's word time and time again and just keep reading. At the beginning of James you will read where we are told to ask for wisdom, and that God is not sparing in granting a 'yes' to that prayer. So ask for that wisdom and read and read from HIM.

By the way, the very fact that you are hungry for His Word is clear evidence that you are saved -- a spiritually alive person has spiritual hunger for the things of God and not other food! And the fact that your entire life changed shows you do indeed have a new heart as a gift from our precious and gracious Lord. So welcome to the Family!

Now, when you walk into a store, look at every single person there with love. For you can never love any one of them more than God loves them, tiny baby to old wrinkled ancient. Every one was created in His image with a spirit and every one has been presented or will be presented with enough truth to accept or reject in the finality.

This does not mean that we can contribute to our own salvation. Any gift you accept is something not made by you. Acceptance is not a work, so please don't let anyone confuse you that way.

Yes, salvation is glorious and wonderful and Jesus is magnificent and you are perfectly right to share that joy whenever and however the Holy Spirit leads you to share it -- in the supermarket, over the phone, with your family, in letters.... just keep your eyes on Jesus and He will let you know where He wants you and what He wants you to do. Philippians 1:6 states that God is faithful to finish the good work He has begun -- and that means you, too, dear sister. I am so happy for you that He has proved so faithful already to you that so much has changed. Now, when people ask questions, you will certainly have answers, won't you?

You are doing fine! Forget the confusion of Calvinism. I don't know why people get mixed up in something that denies so much of what the Bible says. God so loved the WORLD -- so you just go right on loving it, too, and all the people in it, and sharing God's love with everything you do and say. That is God working in you -- so go for it!

========

edit: no, folks, I DON'T mean 'loving the world' like wanting it -- I meant caring for it and about it. Please don't mistake my meaning there!

[ November 02, 2002, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

[Rev. G]

Jannie:

Please let me welcome you to the Baptist Board!

I hope that your time spent on here will be helpful to you.

Wouldn't it be great if every night on the news they had a "Good News" section? Right between weather and sports! "Today First Baptist reports that 3 were saved by God's grace, Park Cities Presbyterian declares that 4 were converted under an incredibly strong sense of conviction, Calvary Bible announces...." That would be great!

It seems like some of the things you are dealing with aren't really issues regarding "Calvinism." Actually, it sounds more like you are dealing with the question of "fatalism." The Scriptures teach both divine sovereignty and human responsibility, therefore we have to hold to both. We can't negate either one. We may not be able to comprehend how it all fits together exactly, but God has revealed in His Word what He wants us to know. Have you noticed that in the NT the Bible never reveals who the "elect" are until AFTER they are converted? Ever wonder why that is? Because, from OUR perspective, we don't know and God doesn't want us to know. Our attitude is to be like that of the Apostle Paul, who "suffered all things for the sake of the elect that they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 2:10). Paul didn't know who the "elect" were, until after they had come to faith. That didn't keep him from praying and proclaiming the Gospel, though! Instead, he worked diligently because of that truth. So should we.

As far as guilt and forgiveness, you should be comforted by what Paul declares in Col. 2 - ALL of our trespasses were nailed to the cross! Isn't that great?!? The evil one may try to remind us of our past (and he does). But remember, our hope is not in what we have not done or in what we will do - it is in Christ alone. Our confidence is not that we have avoided certain activities, or that we are guiltless in all things. Rather, our hope is in Christ alone! Take that to the "bank"!

I must say that I disagree with the "bitter pill to swallow" statement of your pastor. The reason being, those who are in Heaven (or will be) have only God to thank. Those in Hell have no one to blame but themselves. The wrath of God comes upon them because of their own disobedience. Remember, the Scriptures teach both divine sovereignty and human responsibility. We must hold to both!

Again, welcome to the Baptist Board. It's great to have another Texan "on board"!

Rev. G

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Helen:
The only other option is that it did matter and you were then responsible for your own salvation by intellectually converting to Calvinism.

Helen,

Do you always argue so dishonestly? You know I didn't say that. The doctrines of grace are Biblical truth. What you teach against the doctrines of grace is not true. I am saved by the finished work of Jesus on my behalf. I would never have understood that as a Pelagian, just as you apparently don't understand that as whatever brand of Anti-Calvinist you currently are.

May God be gracious to you, Helen.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[Frogman]

John Calvin was not standing in the audience that day...

He was however, in the eternal audience, elected in the Will of God to stand upon Biblical truth and thus be hated. Thanks for pointing that out to us.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Take the gospel, the good news: It is only good if God chose you out of the multitudes, otherwise the good news is horrible news. Their Good News is that if God happen to love you, you got it made, if he skipped over you, ((((FIRE!!!!!)))) FOR A LONG LONG, LONG TIME.

The Gospel of the Grace of God is good news not because it has within it the election of any whom God has elected, but because it is the good news that God has graciously provided a means of reconciliation which does not hinge on any measure of ability from depraved man. IN THIS WAY IT IS GOOD NEWS...we can see this irrisistable grace made effective on wide ranges of lost sinners, degree of sin, depth of sin, etc. all can be eternally cleansed by the Grace of God through the eternal offering of the Blood of Christ, that is the Good News, it remains so, whether or not any depraved man ever was elected to believe it.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Helen]

Whoa Ken!

Here is what you wrote:
Personally, God gave me a slow, steady transition from being a lost Pelagian to being a saved Calvinist, so I did not have a tumultuous emotional experience in accepting the Biblical truths of His sovereignty and His free grace and my inability to contribute anything to my salvation. I have found great comfort in the doctrines of God's amazing grace as I struggle with the remnants of the "old man" in my life on this earth.


You are the one who stated you were lost as a Pelagian and saved as a Calvinist. I said that was a strange thing for you to write since if you were elected all along you were either lost or saved whichever you were.

And then I said that the only other option was you were saved in part by your own intellectual change.

Now if you were lost as a Pelagian and saved as a Calvinist, what happened to your election from before time began?