Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath

[TCGreek]

May I use the opportunity to invite BobRayn and the rest of you, for a discussion on thread, "Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath?" See you there, God willing!

I and my deceased brother who was a Seventh Day Adventist sometimes discussed our different views and reasons for believing the Seventh Day Sabbath - I am, and since my early twenties, have not been, a SDA.
I tried to explain to him, My Reformed brethren believe Sunday is the Sabbath mainly because they believe Jesus was resurrected on the First Day of the week ... of course Sunday. My brother's answer was - like that of every SDA I know - Jesus' resurrection is not a Scriptural reason for the keeping of the day upon which He rose from the dead. 'It's not a Scriptural reason.' There's the crux of the 'issue' I would like to have discussed. Over!

1. I don't know what stripe of the Reformed bent you are, but I wish to kindly say that as glorious and profound as the Resurrection of Christ is, nowhere in Scripture is it used to support Sunday as the new Sabbath.

2. In both the Old and New Testaments, the Seventh day is the Sabbath, not Sunday.

3. Sunday is not a day of rest, like the Sabbath was. I was an error and still is to call Sunday the new Sabbath. This is without scriptural support.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

May I use the opportunity to invite BobRayn and the rest of you, for a discussion on thread, "Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath?" See you there, God willing!

I and my deceased brother who was a Seventh Day Adventist sometimes discussed our different views and reasons for believing the Seventh Day Sabbath - I am, and since my early twenties, have not been, a SDA.
I tried to explain to him, My Reformed brethren believe Sunday is the Sabbath mainly because they believe Jesus was resurrected on the First Day of the week ... of course Sunday. My brother's answer was - like that of every SDA I know - Jesus' resurrection is not a Scriptural reason for the keeping of the day upon which He rose from the dead. 'It's not a Scriptural reason.' There's the crux of the 'issue' I would like to have discussed. Over!

The Westminster Confession refers to Sunday as both the Lord's Day and the Sunday Sabbath. See quote below.

"VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.[37]"

 

[TCGreek]

The Westminster Confession refers to Sunday as both the Lord's Day and the Sunday Sabbath. See quote below.

"VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.[37]"

The Westminster divines got this one wrong, for nowhere in Scripture is Sunday called the Christian Sabbath. Nowhere.

 

[Eliyahu]

The Westminster Confession refers to Sunday as both the Lord's Day and the Sunday Sabbath. See quote below.

"VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.[37]"

This is another problem about the Sabbath.
The Sabbath was given to Israel so that they may know about the True Sabbath, Jesus Christ, Yeshuah Ha-Masiach. Since Jesus Christ has come to this world and accomplished the Cross, Jesus has become our True Sabbath, our Everlasting, Eternal Sabbath.
If Sabbath keepers bring the word " Everlasting Covenant" they should remember that the Circumcision was also another everlasting covenant. Circumcision may have been deemed more important than the Sabbath because we read this:

Joh 7:23
If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
Genesis 17:6
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Gen 17:13
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.


Circumcision overrode the Sabbath on that day of Circumcision.

But we know Apostle Paul struggled against Circumcision Sects as we read Galatians 6

12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. 17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. 18 Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen.

This applies to the Sabbath as well.

Now when we consider the Sunday Sabbath, there is no word like that in the Bible. The Bible manufacturers fabricated such word. We must remember the whorish ideas by Augustine and Calvin who believed the Baptismal Regeneration, Salvation by Sacraments, Infant Baptism, Coercion of the Faith by Sword and Torturing, Union of Sate and Church, then the Predestination and the Limited Atonement by Jesus Christ.
They interpretted many Bible verses in the wrong way such as Luke 14 : 23- for forcing the beliefs.

Sabbath is Saturday and never changed to Sunday. Presbyterian church enforce their attendants the Sunday Sabbath as a part of keeping the Law and give the impression that they may be saved if they continue to attend the churches on Sundays. The attendants do not know the Grace from the work done by Jesus Christ at the Cross.
This is another absurdity, I am sure.

 

[BobRyan]

The Westminster Confession refers to Sunday as both the Lord's Day and the Sunday Sabbath.

The Bible refers to the Sabbath as both the Lord's Day and he Sabbath so it is not too surprising that once the "replacement" is done -- Sunday get's both titles as well.

So what is your point?

(Here is "my" point)

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on

Page 242 that changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243.))

"we know that in the o.t it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1. I don't know what stripe of the Reformed bent you are, but I wish to kindly say that as glorious and profound as the Resurrection of Christ is, nowhere in Scripture is it used to support Sunday as the new Sabbath.

2. In both the Old and New Testaments, the Seventh day is the Sabbath, not Sunday.

3. Sunday is not a day of rest, like the Sabbath was. I(t) was an error and still is to call Sunday the new Sabbath. This is without scriptural support.

And so once again - I agree with TCG...

This is somewhat surprising the more it happens.

But what I DO Like about those who claim Sunday is the new Sabbath is not that they think God's Law is "editable" (a point I differ with them on -) but rather that they accept the Ten Commandments as VALID and binding just as the NT authors do!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Joe, BR,

I admire that you want to live "lawful" lives. Living in a Judeo-Christian society, that will always be a path to blessing from God. However, if you subject yourselves to the law, you are servant to obey ALL the law (legal, ceremonial, etc.). And it often leads to one not obeying the Spirit, the "2nd Master."

The glaringly obvious flaw in that logic is that the two-post series starting here -

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1119603&postcount=14

Is quoting scripture that you are ignoring and pretending to be written by "Bob Joe Eliyahu" etc

Romans 3:31 does NOT SAY "if you submit to the Law of God THEN you are doomed" as you suppose.

John 14 PRE-Cross does not say "IF you Love Me DO NOT keep My Commandments" as you seem to have hoped.

James 2 does NOT say "If you break one of these commandents you have done well - live free break them ALL so you can be saved by grace"

Romans 2 does not say "It is JUST the hearers of God's Law that are JUSTIFIED and NOT the actual DOERS for there are NO doers only hearers" As you seem to wish.

*John 1:17 has some important things to say about that law. "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

All true but this can not be 'bent' in the direction you seek for John says of Christ's PRE-cross commandments "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15.

You have taken a "tiny snippet" approach to scripture and then combined that with something close to ranting in some cases -- and that is not exegesis -- no not remotely.

As the Words of Christ already posted (and already ignored in your posts) said --

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”

Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.

Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same

Quote:
John 12:50
"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me."

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The TCG group gets right the fact that the Law of God "can not be edited" but their problem is that they either think it can be downsized or abolished "by faith".

The D.L.Moody Westminster RCC group get the point right that the Law of God CAN NOT be downsized NOR abolished -- but then they fall down thinking that it can be "edited".

So if you combine the STRENGTHS of each group and toss out their flaws - you get my view!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

And so once again - I agree with TCG...

This is somewhat surprising the more it happens.

But what I DO Like about those who claim Sunday is the new Sabbath is not that they think God's Law is "editable" (a point I differ with them on -) but rather that they accept the Ten Commandments as VALID and binding just as the NT authors do!

in Christ,

Bob

1. The Ten Commandments as a moral law code are only binding in a moral sense, but not it was binding on Israel in their old economy.

2. If by edited you mean what the NT writers have appropriated in their writings, then yes, I hold to that view.

 

[Helen]

A 'moral code'???? They were and are the LAW -- COMMANDMENTS...not suggestions or simply a code to live by!

Bob, the law as a JUDGE is abolished through Christ. We are not JUDGED by the law. The law itself has never changed. Are you misunderstanding here?

 

[TCGreek]

A 'moral code'???? They were and are the LAW -- COMMANDMENTS...not suggestions or simply a code to live by!

Bob, the law as a JUDGE is abolished through Christ. We are not JUDGED by the law. The law itself has never changed. Are you misunderstanding here?

Helen,

Do you keep a Seventh day Sabbath like the SDAs do?

 

[Helen]

Helen,

Do you keep a Seventh day Sabbath like the SDAs do?

No. The Commandment says to do all your work in six days and rest on the seventh. That I do.

In addition, please note that in Exodus 31:14-17, the particular Sabbath Day is a covenant day between the Israelite people and God. I am not Jewish.

Third, Paul mentioned very specifically not to judge a person on the day he keeps.

As long as a day is kept.

We do.

 

[TCGreek]

No. The Commandment says to do all your work in six days and rest on the seventh. That I do.

In addition, please note that in Exodus 31:14-17, the particular Sabbath Day is a covenant day between the Israelite people and God. I am not Jewish.

Third, Paul mentioned very specifically not to judge a person on the day he keeps.

As long as a day is kept.

We do.

1. So if you keep a Seventh day sabbath, but not the one between God and Israel, then it seems like you have made a Sabbath unto yourself.

2. What in your comments should prevent me from drawing the conclusion I did?

 

[Helen]

I keep a rest day, not the Israelite Sabbath. You may draw whatever conclusions you like.

 

[TCGreek]

I keep a rest day, not the Israelite Sabbath. You may draw whatever conclusions you like.

And what NT text is that based on? Do you have a command from God or is it just a preference?

 

[BobRyan]

I keep a rest day, not the Israelite Sabbath. You may draw whatever conclusions you like.

Who is the author of scripture "Israelites"? or "God"??

In Isaiah 66 we see that "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" and in Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND" -- is it your position that at some point all mankind was simply "Israel" or that it will be "just Israel" in the new Earth?

 

[BobRyan]

A 'moral code'???? They were and are the LAW -- COMMANDMENTS...not suggestions or simply a code to live by!

Bob, the law as a JUDGE is abolished through Christ. We are not JUDGED by the law. The law itself has never changed. Are you misunderstanding here?

The law does define the perfect standard - it defines what sin is according to Rom 7.

It condemns all mankind according to Romans 3 and Gal 3 --showing that all - even those living after the cross are condemned as sinners and will go to the 2nd death lake of fire if they do not accept salvation.

No question about that -- and possibly we agree on that part. This is the meaning of the law of God for the one who is NOT saved.

But the other texts given here speak to the law of God's work and role for the one who IS saved.

James speaks to it as the perfect Mirror "so live and act as those who ARE To be judged by the Law".

in Romans 2 "not the hearers of the law are JUST but the doers of the Law WILL BE Justified".

John 14: 15 "If you LOVE Me KEEP My commandments" (yes even the PRE-Cross commandments)

My point is that it is impossible to pretend that all the Bible instruction is limited just to "the Law for the lost sinner". It clearly provides a lot of instruction regarding the law of God for the saint.

"Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact WE Establish the LAW of God" Rom 3:31.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BTW -- note to this entire board. Helen is the saint who a number of years ago first directed me to this board and suggested that I join. :godisgood:

so in some sense -- all that I post here that you don't like - is Helen's faut!:laugh: :type:

 

[BobRyan]

No. The Commandment says to do all your work in six days and rest on the seventh. That I do.

In addition, please note that in Exodus 31:14-17, the particular Sabbath Day is a covenant day between the Israelite people and God. I am not Jewish.

Third, Paul mentioned very specifically not to judge a person on the day he keeps.

As long as a day is kept.

We do.

Simple test for that view.

1. In Matt 7 Christ said "not to judge others" this is a moral imperative in both OT and NT.

2. Now read Exodus 20:8-11 and the scriptures God gives regariding HIS day that HE sanctified and made holy - to see if it is really true that he said "pick any day you wish to keep holy -- sanctify your day and honor your day -- that will be fine with Me".

Look at the Scripture HE gives defining HIS Sabbath in Gen 2:2-3 and in Exodus 20 and tell me if this is really a "pick anyone of seven" teaching that God is giving according to the details of scripure.

What do you find there?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Exodus 20
11 "" For

in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

[/b]

Again notice past tense action of blessing the Sabbath of God and making it Holy in Gen 2:1-3. .

Note The Action commanded -
Note The reasonthat establishes the commandment

Exodus 20:11

For in six days the Lord... and rested on the Seventh-day
Therefore the LORD blessed, ...and made it holy

Many see creation WEEK as a 6 day week – with NOTHING being done for the world or mankind on THE 7th –day.

But Christ said “the Sabbath was MADE for mankind and not mankind MADE for the Sabbath” – speaking of the “making” of both! And we see the making of BOTH in Gen 1-2:3. Exodus 20:8-11 summarizes that very point emphasized by Christ our Creator! In fact Exodus 20 IS the voice of Christ our Creator!


Exod 20[/b]
8 ""Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.
11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
[/b]


Oh that everyone would embrace God's Word just as it reads – evolutionism would not be so well accepted among Christians – if they did.

Ex 16
23 then he said to them, ""This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is the Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the LORD[/b]. Bake what you will bake and boil what you will boil, and all that is left over put aside to be kept until morning.''
24 So they put it aside until morning, as Moses had ordered, and it did not become foul nor was there any worm in it.
25 Moses said, ""Eat it today, for today is a Sabbath to the LORD; today you will not find it in the field.
26 "" Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.''
27 It came about on the seventh day that some of the people went out to gather, but they found none.

28 Then the LORD said to Moses, "" How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My instructions[/b]?
29 ""See, the LORD has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.''
30 So the people rested on the seventh day.



God literally points the reader back to His own literal act in literally creating the world in six literal evenings and mornings – six literal days. Indeed God IS our literal Creator friends! The same language is used in Exodus 20:11 as we see in Gen 2:3 stating the very action taken by God on the 7th day of Creation week.


Gen 2 (NASB)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.
2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.[/quote]
4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.


Further the term “Yom” used in Exodus 20 forms a hard and fast contextual link (same author, same topic, same term, same audience) connecting the “Yom” of Gen 2:3 with the “Yom” (day) of Exodus 20:8-11.