Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath

[Helen]

Bob, I am not going to argue with you. The Commandment which is for all men is simply to work six days and then rest one day. Paul forbids judgment as to which day that is.

The Sabbath is part of the covenant between God and Israel and He states that very plainly in Exodus 31. If you keep that Sabbath, I assume you are also keeping all the other Sabbaths commanded by the Lord for the Israelites, including Passover, Yom Kippur, etc.

ITM, Isaiah 66 is something for the new creation or the Millennial Kingdom, one of them. If you think that is applicable now, then I assume you also think that peace like a river has already swept over the earth and that we can go out and gaze at the dead and rotting bodies of those who have rebelled against the Lord.

Please, in other words, keep things in context.

 

[skypair]

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”

Yes -- MY commandments: 1) Love God with all your heart and 2) love thy neighbor as thyself. In these all of the commandments are comprehended.

But I don't really expect you to believe what Jesus said over what your false prophets have said. Just beware, my friend. Paul wasn't writing the Galations about this same issue for nothing.

Now if you are talking about those who are NOT "under the blood," then they are under the law. But you wouldn't include yourself among them, would you? are you?

skypair

 

[skypair]

BR,

Let me ask you --- what distinguishes you from a Judaizer?

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3901.html#000001

Fundamental Baptist Institute http://www.fbinstitute.com/

presents


THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

BY
DWIGHT L. MOODY
The Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
.[b

BINDING TODAY
Some people seem to think we have got beyond the commandments. What did Christ say?
"Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)
The commandments of God given to Moses in the Mount at Horeb are as binding today as ever they have been since the time they were proclaimed in the hearing of the people. The Jews said the law was not given in Palestine (which belonged to Israel), but in the wilderness, because the law was for all nations.

Jesus never condemned the law and the prophets, but He did condemn those who did not obey them. Because He gave new commandments, it does not follow that He abolished the old. Christ's explanation of them made them all the more searching. In His Sermon on the Mount, He carried the principles of the commandments beyond the mere letter. He unfolded them and showed that they embraced more, that they are positive as well as prohibitive. The Old Testament closes with these words:
"Remember ye the Law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the Statutes and Judgments. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the Earth with a curse." (Malachi 4:4-6)
Does that look as if the law of Moses was becoming obsolete?

The conviction deepens in me with the years that the old truths of the Bible must be stated and restated in the plainest possible language. I do not remember ever to have heard a sermon preached on the commandments. I have an index of two thousand five hundred sermons preached by Spurgeon, and not one of them selects its text from the first seventeen verses of Exodus 20. The people must be made to understand that the Ten Commandments are still binding, and that there is a penalty attached to their violation. We do not want a gospel of mere sentiment. The Sermon on the Mount did not blot out the Ten Commandments.

When Christ came He condensed the statement of the law into this form:
"Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength... [and] thy neighbour as thyself." (Mark 12:30,31)
Paul said:
"Love is the fulfilling of the Law." (Romans 13:10)
But does this mean that the detailed precepts of the Decalogue are superseded and have become back numbers? Does a father cease to give children rules to obey because they love him? Does a nation burn its statute books because the people have become patriotic? Not at all. And yet people speak as if the commandments do not hold for Christians because they have come to love God. Paul said:
"Do we then make void the Law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:31)
It still holds good. The Commandments are necessary. So long as we obey, they do not rest heavy upon us; but as soon as we try to break away, we find they are like fences to keep us within bounds. Horses need bridles even after they have been properly broken in.
"We know that the Law is good, if a man use it lawfully; knowing this, that the Law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine." (1 Timothy 1:8-10)
Now, my friend, are you ready to be weighed by this law of God? A great many people say that if they keep the commandments they do not need to be forgiven and saved through Christ. But have you kept them? I will admit that if you perfectly keep the commandments, you do not need to be saved by Christ; but is there a man in the wide world who can truly say that he has done this? Young lady, can you say: "I am ready to be weighed by the law."? Can you, young man? Will you step into the scales and be weighed one by one by the Ten Commandments?

Now face these Ten Commandments honestly and prayerfully. See if your life is right, and if you are treating God fairly. God's statutes are just, are they not? If they are right, let us see if we are right. Let us get alone with God and read His law- read it carefully and prayerfully, and ask Him to forgive us our sin and what He would have us to do.

[/QB][/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

BR,

Let me ask you --- what distinguishes you from a Judaizer?

skypair

In Acts 15 the Judaizers are defined as those claiming that Gentile Christians had to become circumcised and join the nation of Israel as actual Jews in order to be saved. Here "again" we have some of the "inconvenient details of scripture" because Acts 15 is also where we are told that just as in Acts 13 the gentile believers in the one true God are hearing Moses every Sabbath.

Do you have a quote from me saying that I ever said that Gentiles had to join the nation of Israel as Jews to be saved?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”

Yes -- MY commandments: 1) Love God with all your heart and 2) love thy neighbor as thyself. In these all of the commandments are comprehended.

But I don't really expect you to believe what Jesus said over what your false prophets have...(Obligatory ranting deleted "again")

You have quoted Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 AS IF to say that Christ was SLICING and dicing SCRIPTURE from SCRIPTURE so that in the pre-cross teaching of Christ HIS HEARERS would know that He did not mean for them to read and honor God's scriptures.

Hint: Christ NEVER said "All scripture is hereby deleted unless you hear me repeat some part of it"!!

Matt 5
17 ""[b]Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets[/b]; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 ""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law[/b] until all is accomplished.
19 ""[b]Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same[/b], shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but [b]whoever keeps and teaches them[/b], he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In the modern man-made-traditions of today the new idea is "assumed" inserted "whatever is not repeated is deleted" when it comes to scripture. No such teaching was ever approved by Christ!

 

[BobRyan]

Commandments of Christ vs Commandments of God??

Dividing scripture against scripture? God against God?


Matt 5:17-19
Matt 5
17 ""[b]Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets[/b]; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 ""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law[/b] until all is accomplished.
19 ""[b]Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same[/b], shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but [b]whoever keeps and teaches them[/b], he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

John 14:15 (quoting from the 10 commandments) “IF you love Me Keep My commandments”


I Jn 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Ephesians 6
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
2 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise),
3 SO THAT IT MAY BE WELL WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH.

It is left as an exercise for the reader to see that these are all references to the unity between the Word of God and the Word of Christ.. Commandments of God and Commandments of Christ – for the “The Lord your God is ONE” – the Triune God is not divided “Christ vs the Father”.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, I am not going to argue with you. The Commandment which is for all men is simply to work six days and then rest one day. Paul forbids judgment as to which day that is.

The Sabbath is part of the covenant between God and Israel and He states that very plainly in Exodus 31. If you keep that Sabbath, I assume you are also keeping all the other Sabbaths commanded by the Lord for the Israelites, including Passover, Yom Kippur, etc.

ITM, Isaiah 66 is something for the new creation or the Millennial Kingdom, one of them. If you think that is applicable now, then I assume you also think that peace like a river has already swept...

The point of Isaiah 66 is that the Sabbath not only continues for all eternity but that the scope is "all mankind".

Often those who do not want to keep it argue that it is not intended for all mankind or that it is ended and not to continue.

In Mark 2:27 again we see that it is for all mankind -- even precross. Christ does not say "the Sabbath will someday be made for mankind".

Exegesis is all about keeping these inconvenient details in view as we come up with a Biblically sound doctrine on a given subject.

in Gen 2:3 there is no jew when God comes up with "the Seventh day".

In Exodus 20 we are told that the Sabbath is merely the same as the Gen 2:3 day already made holy.

in Mark 2:27 we are again told that it is "made for mankind".

Even your own arguments are trying to accept it (so I am not sure why you would object to the "for all mankind" section) -- as you call this your "day of rest" using the Sabbath concept -- just keeping another day instead of the one given by God.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

Again, Bob,

The Mosaic law is for the the OT Jews and the lost to obey. For them, sanctification was according to letters written in stone. Saved Christians have Christ's commandments written on tables of flesh -- our hearts.

If you want to limit the Sabbath to one-in-seven, that's up to you. I prefer to enter into spiritual rest in Christ every day -- as it will be in eternity.

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

Again, Bob,

The Mosaic law is for the the OT Jews

#1. Who is the author of scripture -- Moses or God?

#2. In the Creation account is God making "just Jews" or mankind?

#3. WHEN does the first "Jew" show up in the OT?

#4. In Romans 4 -- Abraham is the "father of Just Jews"??

#5. in Heb 11 the giants of faith held up before the NT saints - are "just non-Jews"??

#6. In Matt 5 does Christ say "scripture is just for Jews you can now start ignoring it"??

For them, sanctification was according to letters written in stone.

God's Gospel or man's which one are you referencing? sounds like man's NOt scripture at all.

Saved Christians have Christ's commandments written on tables of flesh -- our hearts.

Which is not a kind of "abolish" rather it is HONOR and ESTABLISH and uphold.

Hence Jeremiah speaks of that as the New Covenant.

One GOSPEL in all of time -- not two.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

You have quoted Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 AS IF to say that Christ was SLICING and dicing SCRIPTURE from SCRIPTURE so that in the pre-cross teaching of Christ HIS HEARERS would know that He did not mean for them to read and honor God's scriptures.

Actually, I was quoting JESUS telling us how the "law of the Spirit" in us would meet and exceed all the OT written laws of the OT.

Hint: Christ NEVER said "All scripture is hereby deleted unless you hear me repeat some part of it"!!

Your "Hint" and quote is bogus. Of course Jesus Himself had to be perfect according to the law else He couldn't live for us and die for we who can't! And is it still not clear to you that the UNSAVED are under the law?? The law DOESN'T "go away" for them else no one would be convicted of trespass before God.

skypair

 

[Joe]

Bob, I am not going to argue with you.

Bob I just received a PM from someone concerning this thread. We will now debate through PM regarding this topic because this person feels I am not out to "use ammunition against people", but want to genuinely learn the truth. We are on opposing sides, so I am looking forward to learning from this person (who will absolutely remain anonymous and I won't mention it again)

You need to tone down your snide remarks, and curt assumptions about people who don't hold your view.

I am used to your ways, this is why I opened my post with "please be gentle" and a smiley face. To keep it from getting ugly. Helen shouldn't feel like this is an argument, especially from someone she herself referred to this board. She has valid points. Neither should this person who Pm'd me feel this way. Nor should I need to ask for grace from a fellow poster right off the bat.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not intend to be unkind to anyone nor use ad hominem in any way - least of all with Helen whom I normally agree with on a great many topics.

On the subject of Sabbath there are a number of people such as Pastor Bob, Brother Bob, HP and others who differ with me on this subject - but I highly respect their views and though I would not post in 100% agreement with them on this particular topic - I would on many if not most topics and I hold nothing against them as a person for the fact that they do not happen to agree with me 100% of time on this topic or any topic.

My objective is the doctrinal statement -- not the person. But I try to remind myself that many people identify themselves with the doctrine and view any objection to a particular doctrine as an objection to the person -- I have a hard to time remembering the personal way in which we all natuarlly tend to hold to a particular view.

Please let me know if I can help further.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Joe]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Proceed......

 

[skypair]

One GOSPEL in all of time -- not two.

Well, there's you error, Bob. Your Bible only has one testament! :laugh:

And in your mind, I can see there would be no reason for a NT --- God still hasn't done anything about sin. Same tune, second verse. Still waiting for Messiah-God to come, aren't you. "Stay the course," Bob.

Let me see if I can explain this to you. In the OT, the "gospel" was "believe in God to save you when He comes to make His enemies His footstool." John the Baptist and Jesus and His 12 and His 70 disciples called it the "gospel of the kingdom" or "the kingdom is at hand."

In the NT, the gospel is "believe in God-Jesus who already came to save you when He died on the cross." We call it the "gospel of grace." Can you tell the difference?

Now obviously there are some, like you and the Jews, that did not see God come to His kingdom and they will continue to preach the "gospel of the kingdom." For such, the OT does still hold sway in doctrine and practice. Jesus was a "prophet" bringing some minor nuances to what is really just one covenant from Adam to Armageddon -- when Messiah will come with a "new covenant."

skypair

 

[Joe]

Matthew 5:19 (King James Version)
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



This verse is NT.

If we are under grace, which I believe are are to a degree, why would the Lord distinguish between these levels in heaven? This is the NT, so if we are covered under grace thru Jesus blood, this makes no sense to mention "positions in heaven" which will never be. That means what the Lord said is untrue. There are no positions in this context

Though imo, no one here is advocating breaking the commandments, what would the Lord think? In causing others to believe these commandments aren't as significant as they were in the OT, and aren't linked to the OT ramifications now since Jesus died for us, this might fall under that heading.

 

[TCGreek]

This side of the cross, Did the apostles keep the seventh-day Sabbath?

 

[Joe]

This side of the cross, Did the apostles keep the seventh-day Sabbath?

No, it never came up in conversation nor was it alluded to in any way. So we don't know for sure.

 

[Joe]

deleted post

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 1
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, [b]for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another;[/b] only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you [b]a gospel contrary[/b] to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
One GOSPEL in all of time -- not two.

Skypair
Well, there's you error, Bob. Your Bible only has one testament! :laugh:

Now see this has been productive -- another text where we differ.

in Christ,

Bob