Why the vitriol?

[saturneptune]

Doulous is correct, 100%. We have heard every angle of the Calvin vs Armenian nonsense that is possible to man in triplicate. How many ways can you say it? You either believe one, the other, or neither. Who cares? TULIP, Calvin, free-will, on and on and on. I dare say if as much time had been spent spreading the Gospel as has been typed and jaws flapped over as has been on this board about this subject, the entire world would have heard the Gospel a decade ago.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by genesis12:
I remember the time when I made the decision to commit my life to Jesus Christ, not out of the blue (it is NEVER an intellectual decision; NEVER a product of "good will"), but in response to His call, His continuing to call me, even though I continued to resist. When I finally submitted , He, remaining true to His promise, imparted the Holy Spirit. A spirit of righteousness was implanted, to do battle with the flesh, the world, the pre-conceived notions and ideas of one who was without Christ. I became the righteousness of God in Christ, not based upon what I did, but solely upon His grace. I could have said NO, but I didn't, eventually. It was His calling and His response to me that saved me. It was all because of His amazing grace. I was a wretch, without Christ, lost, blind, but now I see.
[/QB]

I appreciate your response here Gen12. But don't you see the glaring inconsistency with what you claim and the logical conclusion of your salvation hinging on your decision? If you are only saved because you submitted and stopped saying NO, then your will is the basis of your salvation, not God's grace.

The reformers (starting with Martin Luther) rightly understood that this is the main point. This is what they meant by Grace Alone. Luther said, "If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright."

The council of Trent, however, took your view: "If anyone says that after the sin of Adam man's free will was lost or destroyed...let him be anathema."

I know that no one here who is not a calvinist would even think to take credit for their salvation. I didn't when I wasn't a calvinist. But the logical conclusion of your system is that salvation hangs on your decision. God is the judge. Jesus Christ is the defendant. And you are the jury deciding whether He is accepted or not.

 

[Brother Bob]

I think there is enough vitriol going around from all. Anyway doulous you could of picked an easier word. I had to look up 2 definitions to find out what one word meant.

 

[Ben W]

Originally posted by rsr:
And even a plea to end the vitriol evinces vitriol. Why is it that this topic brings out the worst in posters?

Lord have mercy upon us; you would think we're in the politics forum.

I just checked again, and was quite surprised and dissapointed to see that the Baptist Board had tanked to number 10 on the Baptist Top 1000. Considering that we used to be no 1 on that list.

I think that the current Calvinism v Arminianism flame wars are responsable for that.

Ultimatley only placing the fourum alongside the Science forum off the grid will fix the problem. Because the hits there are low, people that want an audience soon get tired of it.

Still the Baptist Board is always evolving, and if it is to be that it is a place where there are discussions that break out into vitriol take over the board, there is little that anyone can do about it except to use the PM function for discussions once you have brought up a set topic?

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by saturneptune:
Doulous is correct, 100%. We have heard every angle of the Calvin vs Armenian nonsense that is possible to man in triplicate. How many ways can you say it? You either believe one, the other, or neither. Who cares? TULIP, Calvin, free-will, on and on and on. I dare say if as much time had been spent spreading the Gospel as has been typed and jaws flapped over as has been on this board about this subject, the entire world would have heard the Gospel a decade ago.

I care.

Nor do I think it to be nonsense. Nor am I personally tired of repeating the truth, if you are tired of reading it, don't

As it stands, the debate is over the nature of the gospel itself, how it is a person comes to be saved. And since the gospel is important, the Calvinism/Arminianism debate will be important.... just as important as at the time of the Reformation when the Reformers had to battle the semi pelagianism of the Roman church... so too today is there a battle against the semi pelagian church that is the majority report in America today.....

2Pe 1:12-13 ESV Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. (13) I think it right, as long as I am in this body, to stir you up by way of reminder,

blessings,
Ken

 

[Brother Bob]

Luke, chapter 23
"36": And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,

"37": And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.

"38": And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

"39": And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

"40": But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

"41": And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

"42": And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

"43": And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Think there might of been a little works here?

And no water baptism!! WoW!

 

[johnp.]

Hello rsr.

I simply wanted to point out that predestinarians are not immune from pride and that his sweeping opinion that all free-willers want to take some credit for their salvation is just that — an opinion.

1 Cor 1:30 It is because of their choice they are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

1 Cor 1:30 It is because of Him (God) that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

It is a well founded opinion is it not, not that pride doesn't show itself in all men in some way all the time?

I think if we could take a little less offence for God things might be a bit more peaceful. What's it to us if another offends the Almighty, let Him deal with it would be a thought. We are supposed to be insulted and despised aren't we, why don't we obey the command? MT 5:11 "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Rejoice, not revenge, though revenge as a strange attraction but rejoice is the command, obedience.

LK 6:22 Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. 23 "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.

Think there might of been a little works here?

JN 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

It was a work of God Bob.

john.

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by rsr:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by doulous:
HOW DARE YOU! I am not filled with vitriol, I am incredulous you would say such a thing. I don't have to impress you, nor do I have to fit into your theological box. I was a vile sinner, saved by grace. I deserved nothing and I earned nothing. My understanding of election, predestination and sovereign grace has done more to underscore my wretchedness than anything else I have ever known.

I am sorry you found it so offensive. I was indeed simply turning nepetreley's argument on its head. He calls it "mocking"; I simply wanted to point out that predestinarians are not immune from pride and that his sweeping opinion that all free-willers want to take some credit for their salvation is just that — an opinion. </font>[/QUOTE]It's more than an opinion. It's a fact.

 

[Brother Bob]

johnp;

I was talking about this part:

"39": And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

"40": But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

"41": And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss

How did you come up with "it was a work of God, and why just the one on the right" please?

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rsr:
I am sorry you found it so offensive. I was indeed simply turning nepetreley's argument on its head. He calls it "mocking"; I simply wanted to point out that predestinarians are not immune from pride and that his sweeping opinion that all free-willers want to take some credit for their salvation is just that — an opinion.

No, predestinarians are not immune from pride. No one is immune to pride. But the Biblical view of election leaves no room for pride or boasting. If a predestinarian is prideful, he errs as to his interpretation of scripture.

Free willism, on the other hand, cannot escape pride and boasting, because by definition it attributes the turning point of salvation to one's own decision. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, but wasn't it you that wrote?:

False accusations about a doctrine cause vitriol. When free willers state that Calvinism means God damns people to hell willy nilly, that is a false accusation about Calvinism. When Calvinists say that the God of free willers is an incompetent (and I have been guilty of doing that, which is why I chose this example), that incites vitriol.

I'm sure there are more reasons, but these are some of my answers to "Why the vitriol?"

And...

In sharp contrast, this is not true of free willism. A free willer can rightly say that, according to his doctrine, HE made the difference between himself and the unsaved. It was HIS decision to accept Christ. Therefore he can credit at least part of his own salvation to himself. And I believe he does credit that part to himself, whether he admits it or not.

And...

Exactly. That's my point about the difference between free willers glorying in the flesh, and Calvinists glorying in God. If you truly believe in the Biblical view of election, there is no space for boasting.

And then you go and do the same by misrepresenting what free-willers believe. I know I don't believe what you stated. And I have never met a free-willer that does.

In fact my favorite verse is 1 Cor. 1:31, and you can check my profile if you want. How do you explain that?

No free-willer takes credit in their salvation just because they feared God and chose to believe the Gospel. We Christians that have been saved all believe in Romans 3:20-28 including verse 27 or else we never would be saved at all now would we? Or do you think that one can be saved by believing in Christ and himself even if they are sincere?

You can check Acts 16:30-31 and see if Paul and Silas answered the jailer with, "Nothing. One just sits around and gets saved against their totally depraved will when God chooses to save them. That is of course if you are on His already exclusive list like us."

When that verse changes to say something like that, I will become a Calvinist.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Brother Bob.

I thought you were affirming a choice was I wrong, the difference being one made an approach to Jesus. I can't see what else you meant.

The criminal called on Jesus to remember him and the other insulted Him.

How did you come up with "it was a work of God...

I did not come up with it. I don't know if you mean: I came up with faith being a work of God to counter any suggestion that faith is a work of man. Faith being a work is clear from John 6:29.
Or: I came up with it because it is the right response.

...and why just the one on the right" please?

That's easy. Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
He had heard the gospel and God opened his heart to receive it. The other's heart was not good and noble. (Luke 8:15.)

Any good?

john.

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by All about Grace:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andy T.:
I think what npetreley points out is that when a Calvinist is prideful it is inconsistent with his doctrine, but when a non-Calvinist is prideful it is consistent (whether conscious or not on behalf of the individual) with his doctrine.

Actually this is not entirely true. Many of the Calvinists with whom I interact tend to view life with a "boys club" mentality -- I am in - you are not. This mentality naturally lends itself to pride. Some of the most arrogant Christians of my experience have been Calvinists (as evidenced by the posts in this very thread regarding fleshly non-Calvinists). There is also an innate danger within Calvinism to advance theological dogma into other areas such as methodology. Although my beliefs regarding salvation are extremely God-centered, I am often criticized sharply by Calvinists for methods they deem inappropriate.

And regarding the "pride" of a non-Calvinists who boasts in their own decision, another misconception. Calvinists and non-Calvinists should both recognize salvation was ultimately provided by God through the death of Christ. Even in a non-Calvinistic system God still made the first move. There is no self-pride in that fundamental truth. Pride enters the picture one step removed from this basic truth upon which sides must agree.

You do not have to move beyond the Baptist Board to experience what can be perceived as pride from both Calvinists and non-Calvinists, and yes I'll even throw in myself -- after all I am more right than anyone </font>[/QUOTE]

I have long recognized the.... I'm in the exclusive royal family and you don't even a chance to be! Well, at least the odds are against it...pride of some Calvinists.

You also nailed it when you wrote:

Go to any Calvinistic forum on the web (or just stick around BB). Re-read this very thread. Calvinists have a tendency to display a spirit that suggests they have figured it all out theologically.

And that is a display of pride that I have seem in just about every Calvinist that I have either met or debated.

 

[Brother Bob]

John;
Can you explain the one on the right testifying to the one on the left before he confessed to Jesus?

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
One other thing to add. What probably bothers me the most in these debates and causes me to stumble sometimes in my love for the other person, is when he does not even lend credence to the Doctrines of Grace or when he ascribes evil, ill-will or stupidity to believing the Doctrines. Like I said, I understand the non-Calvinist position. I even think it is reasonable. But even when I was a non-Calvinist for years, I usually lended credence to the Calvinist position. I never laughed it off or thought it was from the pit of hell. I always thought that here are two competing, reasonable interpretations of Scripture, and both sides are represented by godly men and women. I guess that's what can get my ire in these debates - that and when someone creates a strawman of Hyper-Calvinism and starts bashing it.

Do you know why that is? It could be that we are being disobedient.

"But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes." 2 Tim. 2:23

 

[saturneptune]

The Gospel is important, in fact, all that matters. And how a person becomes saved is what the Bible says, faith and trust in Jesus Christ. It doesnt matter what Calvin thought about it, what Armenius thought about it, what you think Calvin thought about it.

The last time I checked only Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are divine, and worthy of worship, not Calvin and Armenius.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bob.

Can you explain the one on the right testifying to the one on the left before he confessed to Jesus?

He was already saved he just asked to be remembered. He was comforted in his death and told his departure time. Jesus was comforting the sheep while suffering Hell.

john.

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by saturneptune:
Doulous is correct, 100%. We have heard every angle of the Calvin vs Armenian nonsense that is possible to man in triplicate. How many ways can you say it? You either believe one, the other, or neither. Who cares? TULIP, Calvin, free-will, on and on and on. I dare say if as much time had been spent spreading the Gospel as has been typed and jaws flapped over as has been on this board about this subject, the entire world would have heard the Gospel a decade ago.

It's funny you should say that because I was thinking the same thing last night. Satan must love this waste of time.

Instead of doing what Christ said and getting the message of the Gospel to the world, we instead debate a fine point on how we got saved instead!

 

[Brother Bob]

Saturneptune;
Faith and trust in Jesus Christ is "right on".

 

[johnp.]

Hello JackRUS.

You have a choice. Either you are in Christ because of you or because of Him. If you want to say you are in Christ because of God then He saves you. The free will option is that unless you do something He doesn't save you which means that salvation depends on you.

In fact my favorite verse is 1 Cor. 1:31, and you can check my profile if you want. How do you explain that?

I'd like to hear you explain it.
1 Cor 1:30 It is because of your choice...
1 Cor 1:30 It is because of Him...


john.

 

[Brother Bob]

johnp;
Let me get this right now "he was a thief and was put to death for it but was already saved". Sorry john, I just to buy that.