Why the vitriol?

Well..so much for...

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Gal. 6:7

Of course the real answer is found in the next verse that says that the one who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Of course implying that the sinner is the one doing the sowing.

Not that he is saving himself, but that that he is turning to God.

 

No doulous;
I believe that the Holy Ghost baptism does the saving alright but the water baptism is to answer a good concious towards God and you have to have a good concious before you can answer it don't you agree?

 

That is exactly what I said "he has a good concious so then he can truthfully answer it towards God." If he did not have a good concious then he would be bearing false witness. Let me add to that. You said did I believe a person had to be baptized. Yes, I do but with a Holy Ghost baptism.

 

Oh, sorry, I didn't read the whole thread. We agree, at least, that IF he was saved on the cross, then God made an exception with respect to water baptism. The problem is we have no idea if he was saved on the cross or not.

 

There must be different types and times of receivings of the Spirit. Pesonally, the following types of quotes confuse me quite a bit:

1. They were baptized in the name of Jesus but hadn't had the Spirit fallen on them yet.

2. They receive the Spirit as soon as they heard (as in "having ears to hear" not as in hearing the sound).

3. They never heard of the Spirit. They received Spirit after they were baptized in the name of Jesus, when Paul laid hands on them.

Maybe this deserves its own thread.

 

nept;
Those were who Jesus came unto his own and John and other baptized them before the coming of Christ, but after the coming in of the Gentiles and now the Holy Ghost bapism comes first.

 

what I don't understand is how some people can think that they get to dictate to others what is important and what is not. If the issue of how it is a person is saved is unimportant to you, then fine, leave the discussion.

you say

Untrue. It may be the case that one's salvation is not dependent on their having the correct soteriology, the fact is, truth matters to God and it therefore ought to matter to us...

however, salvation by grace through faith is the gospel message itself, since Paul thought it important enough to anathematize the Galatians for changing the gospel, it seems it ought to be important to us as well....

the Reformation was not a tempest in a teapot, it was over the nature of the gospel itself... and just like the Roman Catholic church compromised the gospel message by adding to the gospel message of salvation by grace through faith, so too, in whatever way the modern semi pelagian church compromises the gospel message, it needs to be pointed out, strenuously so....

blessings,
Ken

 

This doesn't explain the quotes from Acts.

 

Sure it does they were baptized by John's baptism and the baptism of Christ had not reached them as of yet.

 

Here, my point is this:

They believed, yet they hadn't yet received the Spirit. Although it doesn't specifically say so, I think it's safe to say they were saved when they believed.

So:

1. Either there are different types of receiving the Spirit

...or...

2. One does not necessarily receive the Spirit when one believes and is saved

I happen to think it's the former (there are different ways of receiving the Spirit). I don't see how the latter could be possible, since it is the Spirit that quickens.

But I'm open to suggestions.

 

np;
I hope you will agree that there was a time of transition while Jesus was on the earth and the way Apostle Paul did it is our example. No it does not say they were saved for John said I baptize you with water but there cometh one after me that will baptize you with the fire and the Holy Ghost. (in other words complete a work started by him.) I wrestled with this issue for a while and this is the conclusion I finally came to. I could be wrong but Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel sent to the Gentiles and at Cornelius house they received the Holy Ghost first.

Undoubtably there has been 2 different ways of receiving the Spirit for the Bible teaches us so, They received it after they believed and received the water baptism and we receive it when we believe from the heart. There is no denying that there is two examples in the Scriptures and the only answer I have been able to come up with is the "time of transition".

 

I think another possible answer is that the Spirit regenerated and sealed them when they believed. But they did not receive their gifts of the Holy Spirit until later. Notice that (in Acts at least) the instances where they people receive the Spirit later, it is accompanied by prophesying and tongues.

I can't back this up with explicit scripture - this is ONLY a guess and another possibility. I'm not claiming this is the only correct interpretation.

 

I think you're on to it there npet, here's some scripture that affirms it:

This reference cannot describe the indwelling of the HS as he is received in regeneration. This had to be an outward manifestation during the transitional, apostolic, days. The salvific infusion of the Spirit is an invisible event. This Galation event, as on the day of pentecost, was a visible, miraculous affirmation of the Gospel, associated only with the Apostles (he that worketh mircalces among you...).

The Galations reference must describe:

Of course these miraculous events are to be associated only with the Apostles, as I said. This is the error of modern charismatics - they try to put the signs of an apostle into the hands of modern christians, where they don't belong.

 

Hello Brother Bob.

I apologise for the delay.

What they were doing was working out God's will in them, both of them. Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

You tell me what he understood of the Kingdom of God, he doesn't sound like a theologian to me but he knew enough about the character of Jesus to witness about Him. He must have known something or his words are empty.

"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." I don't see that as a confession of Christ more of an hope. But to see the Kingdom of God one needs to be born again and the thief must have seen it because he was speaking of it and to It.

My theology tells me that no one can go to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44), the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7. What I can't do is prove anything to you, that is the Holy Spirit's work.

I get the impression that you think some people hung on a cross deserve to be. No one is saved by the skin of their teeth, it is an ordained thing. Rebirth occurs at the time assigned for it.

john.

 

I kept mine to myself doulous;

 

johnp;

That is your belief not mine and as far as me thinking some people deserve to be hung, it was not I but the one on the right who said:

Luke, chapter 23 deed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this ma

John, chapter 12
31": Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

"32": And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

"33": This he said, signifying what death he should die.

Luke, chapter 23
39": And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

"40": But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

"41": And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

"42": And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

It had already been said over and over "The King of the Jews" and if thou be the Christ".

2 Peter, chapter 3
"9": The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Knowing that you will say He was talking about you I posted the following Scripture also.

John, chapter 3
"16": For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God is love,
BBob