Why the vitriol?

[doulous]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
No, nepet;
I am one who says he made the exception. Some were saying that they must be bapized and water was where the salvation is.
I certainly hope you are one of them too nept. I don't wish you no ill will at all, may God be with you.
Bob

Brother Bob, I didn't understand the second part of your post. Are you saying that baptism is necessary for salvation?

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
I am amazed that here was the "elect" hanging on a cross for stealing and who knows what and just by the skim of his teeth the Lord grabbed him. Man we never know who we walking around with, do we? jeepers how convenient. Here we are spending our lives trying to convince the world to repent and all the time the Lord will grab them at the last second.

Well..so much for...

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Gal. 6:7

Of course the real answer is found in the next verse that says that the one who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Of course implying that the sinner is the one doing the sowing.

Not that he is saving himself, but that that he is turning to God.

 

[Brother Bob]

No doulous;
I believe that the Holy Ghost baptism does the saving alright but the water baptism is to answer a good concious towards God and you have to have a good concious before you can answer it don't you agree?

 

[doulous]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
No doulous;
I believe that the Holy Ghost baptism does the saving alright but the water baptism is to answer a good concious towards God and you have to have a good concious before you can answer it don't you agree?

Good conscience? All I know is the command is "repent and be baptized." I suppose the longer one waits in order be baptized we should make sure his life is in keeping with his profession. But to me, a sinner that comes to faith in Christ already has a good conscience...or shall we say a changed conscience.

 

[Brother Bob]

That is exactly what I said "he has a good concious so then he can truthfully answer it towards God." If he did not have a good concious then he would be bearing false witness. Let me add to that. You said did I believe a person had to be baptized. Yes, I do but with a Holy Ghost baptism.

 

[doulous]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
That is exactly what I said "he has a good concious so then he can truthfully answer it towards God." If he did not have a good concious then he would be bearing false witness. Let me add to that. You said did I believe a person had to be baptized. Yes, I do but with a Holy Ghost baptism.

I agree. The baptism (or sealing) of the Holy Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
No, nepet;
I am one who says he made the exception. Some were saying that they must be bapized and water was where the salvation is.
I certainly hope you are one of them too nept. I don't wish you no ill will at all, may God be with you.
Bob

Oh, sorry, I didn't read the whole thread. We agree, at least, that IF he was saved on the cross, then God made an exception with respect to water baptism. The problem is we have no idea if he was saved on the cross or not.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by doulous:
I agree. The baptism (or sealing) of the Holy Spirit occurs at the moment of salvation.

There must be different types and times of receivings of the Spirit. Pesonally, the following types of quotes confuse me quite a bit:

1. They were baptized in the name of Jesus but hadn't had the Spirit fallen on them yet.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

2. They receive the Spirit as soon as they heard (as in "having ears to hear" not as in hearing the sound).

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

3. They never heard of the Spirit. They received Spirit after they were baptized in the name of Jesus, when Paul laid hands on them.

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Maybe this deserves its own thread.

 

[Brother Bob]

nept;
Those were who Jesus came unto his own and John and other baptized them before the coming of Christ, but after the coming in of the Gentiles and now the Holy Ghost bapism comes first.

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by saturneptune:
npet,
While not being able to speak for Genesis, maybe he would like to see a debate or discussion of a subject that makes a difference or is important.

what I don't understand is how some people can think that they get to dictate to others what is important and what is not. If the issue of how it is a person is saved is unimportant to you, then fine, leave the discussion.

you say

The man made "debate" that infects just about every thread of this board in one fashion or another has no eternal consequences.

Untrue. It may be the case that one's salvation is not dependent on their having the correct soteriology, the fact is, truth matters to God and it therefore ought to matter to us...

however, salvation by grace through faith is the gospel message itself, since Paul thought it important enough to anathematize the Galatians for changing the gospel, it seems it ought to be important to us as well....

the Reformation was not a tempest in a teapot, it was over the nature of the gospel itself... and just like the Roman Catholic church compromised the gospel message by adding to the gospel message of salvation by grace through faith, so too, in whatever way the modern semi pelagian church compromises the gospel message, it needs to be pointed out, strenuously so....

blessings,
Ken

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
nept;
Those were who Jesus came unto his own and John and other baptized them before the coming of Christ, but after the coming in of the Gentiles and now the Holy Ghost bapism comes first.

This doesn't explain the quotes from Acts.

 

[Brother Bob]

Sure it does they were baptized by John's baptism and the baptism of Christ had not reached them as of yet.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Sure it does they were baptized by John's baptism and the baptism of Christ had not reached them as of yet.

Here, my point is this:

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
[...]
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

They believed, yet they hadn't yet received the Spirit. Although it doesn't specifically say so, I think it's safe to say they were saved when they believed.

So:

1. Either there are different types of receiving the Spirit

...or...

2. One does not necessarily receive the Spirit when one believes and is saved

I happen to think it's the former (there are different ways of receiving the Spirit). I don't see how the latter could be possible, since it is the Spirit that quickens.

But I'm open to suggestions.

 

[Brother Bob]

np;
I hope you will agree that there was a time of transition while Jesus was on the earth and the way Apostle Paul did it is our example. No it does not say they were saved for John said I baptize you with water but there cometh one after me that will baptize you with the fire and the Holy Ghost. (in other words complete a work started by him.) I wrestled with this issue for a while and this is the conclusion I finally came to. I could be wrong but Apostle Paul was a chosen vessel sent to the Gentiles and at Cornelius house they received the Holy Ghost first.

Undoubtably there has been 2 different ways of receiving the Spirit for the Bible teaches us so, They received it after they believed and received the water baptism and we receive it when we believe from the heart. There is no denying that there is two examples in the Scriptures and the only answer I have been able to come up with is the "time of transition".

 

[npetreley]

I think another possible answer is that the Spirit regenerated and sealed them when they believed. But they did not receive their gifts of the Holy Spirit until later. Notice that (in Acts at least) the instances where they people receive the Spirit later, it is accompanied by prophesying and tongues.

I can't back this up with explicit scripture - this is ONLY a guess and another possibility. I'm not claiming this is the only correct interpretation.

 

[J.D.]

Originally posted by npetreley:
I think another possible answer is that the Spirit regenerated and sealed them when they believed. But they did not receive their gifts of the Holy Spirit until later. Notice that (in Acts at least) the instances where they people receive the Spirit later, it is accompanied by prophesying and tongues.

I can't back this up with explicit scripture - this is ONLY a guess and another possibility. I'm not claiming this is the only correct interpretation.

I think you're on to it there npet, here's some scripture that affirms it:

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if [it be] yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This reference cannot describe the indwelling of the HS as he is received in regeneration. This had to be an outward manifestation during the transitional, apostolic, days. The salvific infusion of the Spirit is an invisible event. This Galation event, as on the day of pentecost, was a visible, miraculous affirmation of the Gospel, associated only with the Apostles (he that worketh mircalces among you...).

The Galations reference must describe:

Acts 18:22 And when he had landed at Caesarea, and gone up, and saluted the church, he went down to Antioch. 23 And after he had spent some time [there], he departed, and went over [all] the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order, strengthening all the disciples. 24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: 28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ. Ch 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve. 8 And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. 9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. 10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks. 11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

Of course these miraculous events are to be associated only with the Apostles, as I said. This is the error of modern charismatics - they try to put the signs of an apostle into the hands of modern christians, where they don't belong.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Brother Bob.

I apologise for the delay.

One was repenting the other one not.

What they were doing was working out God's will in them, both of them. Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

(Then why, if he was already saved did he then turn to Jesus and say "remember me".}

You tell me what he understood of the Kingdom of God, he doesn't sound like a theologian to me but he knew enough about the character of Jesus to witness about Him. He must have known something or his words are empty.

"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." I don't see that as a confession of Christ more of an hope. But to see the Kingdom of God one needs to be born again and the thief must have seen it because he was speaking of it and to It.

You cannot prove nor do you have Scriptures that the man was already saved before he asked Jesus to "remember me".

My theology tells me that no one can go to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44), the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7. What I can't do is prove anything to you, that is the Holy Spirit's work.

I am amazed that here was the "elect" hanging on a cross for stealing and who knows what and just by the skim of his teeth the Lord grabbed him.

I get the impression that you think some people hung on a cross deserve to be. No one is saved by the skin of their teeth, it is an ordained thing. Rebirth occurs at the time assigned for it.

john.

 

[doulous]

One only needs to review the thread titled, "Dept. of Arminian Security Calvinist Advisory System" to understand why this thread exists. Arguably the OP of that thread was a "tongue-in-cheek" attempt at humor. Unfortunately it digressed into name calling and personal attacks. How sad. It would have been better if the offended parties had left it alone instead of asserting their rights. "I'm offended so I am going to offend back!" Wonderful attitude. Christ is honored (yes, that is my attempt at sarcasm).

 

[Brother Bob]

I kept mine to myself doulous;

 

[Brother Bob]

johnp;

I get the impression that you think some people hung on a cross deserve to be. No one is saved by the skin of their teeth, it is an ordained thing. Rebirth occurs at the time assigned for it.

That is your belief not mine and as far as me thinking some people deserve to be hung, it was not I but the one on the right who said:

Luke, chapter 23 deed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this ma

My theology tells me that no one can go to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44), the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Rom 8:7. What I can't do is prove anything to you, that is the Holy Spirit's work.

John, chapter 12
31": Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

"32": And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

"33": This he said, signifying what death he should die.

You tell me what he understood of the Kingdom of God, he doesn't sound like a theologian to me but he knew enough about the character of Jesus to witness about Him. He must have known something or his words are empty.

"And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." I don't see that as a confession of Christ more of an hope. But to see the Kingdom of God one needs to be born again and the thief must have seen it because he was speaking of it and to It.

Luke, chapter 23
39": And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

"40": But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

"41": And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

"42": And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

It had already been said over and over "The King of the Jews" and if thou be the Christ".

What they were doing was working out God's will in them, both of them. Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

2 Peter, chapter 3
"9": The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Knowing that you will say He was talking about you I posted the following Scripture also.

John, chapter 3
"16": For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God is love,
BBob