Why? Why?

[Benjamin]

Big difference here is that NONE of us are angry/bitter really trying to attack van, just pointing out how he seems to know all these things, yet still don't know his creditials to judge translations. theology etc!

There are better ways to challenge his credibility if he is making such a claim...That is difference maybe you should take note of.

 

[Yeshua1]

There are better ways to challenge his credibility if he is making such a claim...That is difference maybe you should take note of.

yes, there is a way without appearing smug or arrogant, that I agree with!

 

[psalms109:31]

Hi Psalms 109:31, a couple of points:

1) Paul said we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, not we were chosen individually before the foundation of the world.

2) What did God credit or reckon as righteousness? The person or the faith? Read the last part of Ephesians 1:5.

He chose Christ the new creation not the old creation to be predestined.

In time we are grafted into the tree of life. We are grafted in when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

Rom 11 show five groups. Those who was never cut out the remnant and able to enter, those who are grafted in who heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed, those who do not continue in their unbelief and grafted back in, those are cut out and not able to enter not for not being chosen but for unbelief, and finally those who do not enter either because the never heard the gospel or walked away from it.

We are saved not from anything that came from us, but what came from God His word when we listened and learned from it.

Faith is a noun an object like the word of God. A verb belief comes from us not from God. God does not have to believe in Himself we do.

Faith a noun we have to take by a verb action believe.

 

[Van]

Just a quick note on the 7000 chosen because they have not bowed a knee to Baal. The grammar of Romans 11:4 is clear, they were chosen conditionally, they had not bowed when chosen. All this appeal to grammar is fiction.

What Calvinism argues is the opposite of what it says. Had others already bowed? Yes, thus were not reserved, were not left, were not protected. The Calvinist baloney asserts that God choose the 7000 and caused them not to bow. Why not everybody?

The passage gives the reason for reserving them, they had faith from which their commitment to God was unwavering.

Bottom line, according to Calvinism, nothing means what it says if it says Calvinism is mistaken.

 

[The Archangel]

Just a quick note on the 7000 chosen because they have not bowed a knee to Baal. The grammar of Romans 11:4 is clear, they were chosen conditionally, they had not bowed when chosen. All this appeal to grammar is fiction.

What Calvinism argues is the opposite of what it says. Had others already bowed? Yes, thus were not reserved, were not left, were not protected. The Calvinist baloney asserts that God choose the 7000 and caused them not to bow. Why not everybody?

The passage gives the reason for reserving them, they had faith from which their commitment to God was unwavering.

Bottom line, according to Calvinism, nothing means what it says if it says Calvinism is mistaken.

It's interesting you cite the "grammar" of Romans 11:4 without going into what the grammar describes. Perhaps it's because you, by your own admission, know no Greek. Therefore, referring to the "grammar" of a passage without going into the details to support your position is just a bit silly, isn't it? It's no better than saying, "Liar, liar, pants on fire."

The Archangel

 

[Van]

He chose Christ the new creation not the old creation to be predestined.

In time we are grafted into the tree of life. We are grafted in when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

Rom 11 show five groups. Those who was never cut out the remnant and able to enter, those who are grafted in who heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed, those who do not continue in their unbelief and grafted back in, those are cut out and not able to enter not for not being chosen but for unbelief, and finally those who do not enter either because the never heard the gospel or walked away from it.

We are saved not from anything that came from us, but what came from God His word when we listened and learned from it.

Faith is a noun an object like the word of God. A verb belief comes from us not from God. God does not have to believe in Himself we do.

Faith a noun we have to take by a verb action believe.

Hi Psalms 109:31, I made two statements concerning your prior post. I did not see where you accepted that your presentation misrepresented what the Bible actually says.

Were we grafted in when we heard the gospel, having believed? There is no such thing as a faithomatic salvation. Only when God credits your faith as righteousness, does God set you apart in Christ for salvation.

Lets review Romans 11:

1) All Israel does not refer to descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, but to those who put their trust in God, including Gentiles.

2) The purpose of the partial hardening of the unbelieving Jew was to send the gospel into the Gentile world.

3) Now, since the Gentiles have been shown mercy, the believing Jews may now be shown mercy.

 

[Van]

It's interesting you cite the "grammar" of Romans 11:4 without going into what the grammar describes. Perhaps it's because you, by your own admission, know no Greek. Therefore, referring to the "grammar" of a passage without going into the details to support your position is just a bit silly, isn't it? It's no better than saying, "Liar, liar, pants on fire."

The Archangel

Yet another personal attack.

Just a quick note on the 7000 chosen because they have not bowed a knee to Baal. The grammar of Romans 11:4 is clear, they were chosen conditionally, they had not bowed when chosen. All this appeal to grammar is fiction.

What Calvinism argues is the opposite of what it says. Had others already bowed? Yes, thus were not reserved, were not left, were not protected. The Calvinist baloney asserts that God choose the 7000 and caused them not to bow. Why not everybody?

The passage gives the reason for reserving them, they had faith from which their commitment to God was unwavering.

Bottom line, according to Calvinism, nothing means what it says if it says Calvinism is mistaken.

 

[The Archangel]

Yet another personal attack.

Yawn.

Just a quick note on the 7000 chosen because they have not bowed a knee to Baal. The grammar of Romans 11:4 is clear, they were chosen conditionally, they had not bowed when chosen. All this appeal to grammar is fiction.

You've made the assertion. Now, back it up. Explain WHY the grammar supports your position.

The Archangel

 

[psalms109:31]

Hi Psalms 109:31, I made two statements concerning your prior post. I did not see where you accepted that your presentation misrepresented what the Bible actually says.

Were we grafted in when we heard the gospel, having believed? There is no such thing as a faithomatic salvation. Only when God credits your faith as righteousness, does God set you apart in Christ for salvation.

Lets review Romans 11:

1) All Israel does not refer to descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, but to those who put their trust in God, including Gentiles.

2) The purpose of the partial hardening of the unbelieving Jew was to send the gospel into the Gentile world.

3) Now, since the Gentiles have been shown mercy, the believing Jews may now be shown mercy.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Romans 10:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10:17
New International Version (NIV)
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Exodus 12:48
“A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lord’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it.

Numbers 9:14
“‘A foreigner residing among you is also to celebrate the Lord’s Passover in accordance with its rules and regulations. You must have the same regulations for both the foreigner and the native-born.’”

Israel is the people of God Gentiles have always been included from the beginning when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed and Israel those who have been cut out is for unbelief. In Christ we are one Gentiles or Jew.

My faith is the words of Jesus and the words about Him and trust in in Christ you are included when you heard the Gospel of your salvation having believed just as eph says.

If you have not heard the Gospel of your salvation having believed you have no faith a noun to be credited

 

[Rippon]

If we look at Romans 9:16 we see that "it" does not depend on man. What is the it. If you look at the entire chapter, then God's choice to have mercy on some does not depend on the man that wills. And that mercy, is to save us, those He called from the Jews and Gentiles.

Calvinists love to cite Romans 9:16 to supposedly support unconditional election,

You are all over the place when it comes to your understanding of Romans 9:16. One day you're here --and the next day you're there.

On 11/1/2013 you said:"Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved,thus spiritual inability is once again shown to be mistaken doctrine." I had replied with:"You turn Scripture on its head. Listen and read closely:'It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.' "

Then Van said in reply:"Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not."

And of course Van sounded just like the objector to Paul in Romans 9:"One of you will say to me:'The why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?' "

Paul concludes the matter with :"But who are you, a human being,to talk back to God? 'Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,"Why did you make me like this?' " and following.

 

[Inspector Javert]

why is it that many on this Forum resist so adamantly the Biblical teaching that God still choses those He will bring to Salvation in Jesus Christ?

In accordance with your belief system..
It is because it is God's desire that they resist that teaching.
They are simply fulfilling God's Sovereign determination for their lives.


My counter-question to you might be:
"Why does that seem to bother those of your Theological conviction so much"?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In accordance with your belief system..
It is because it is God's desire that they resist that teaching.
They are simply fulfilling God's Sovereign determination for their lives.


My counter-question to you might be:
"Why does that seem to bother those of your Theological conviction so much"?

Really, doesnt bother me at all. But I will not answer for RB, even though both you & I know (or think we know) his answer.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Really, doesnt bother me at all.

I can dig that answer.

I can dig intellectually honest Calvinists like A.W. Pink, Hoeksema, Clark and the like.

I like the new picture B.T.W. :thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

In accordance with your belief system..
It is because it is God's desire that they resist that teaching.
They are simply fulfilling God's Sovereign determination for their lives.

You know little to nothing about my belief system!

However, you may have a point. The Apostle Paul speaking of his kinsman after the flesh and also the Gentiles said:

1st Corinthians 1:22, 23.
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

And then there was that Saint named Stephen who told the Jews, just before they stoned him with Saul looking on, in that most superb sermon: Acts 7:51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

You see it is the nature of the unsaved man, the natural man, to resist God: 1st Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It is for this reason that God must always take the initiative in Salvation, first in Election from the foundation of the World {Ephesians 1:4}, and then in time the regeneration {New Birth} of the elect one!

My counter-question to you might be:
"Why does that seem to bother those of your Theological conviction so much"?

I can't speak for those supposedly of my "theological conviction". In the OP I simply wondered why so many who believe that God chose Israel for His purpose {Many people still believe the Jews are the "Elect of God".} reject the Biblical teaching that God elects, in this dispensation, certain people to Salvation in Jesus Christ, just as He did in the Old Testament.

 

[Inspector Javert]

You know little to nothing about my belief system!

I understand your belief system quite well.

However, you may have a point.

I know I do...
That's because I understand an awful lot about your belief system.

No doubt you probably personally hold to some particular ideas which are unique to yourself and/or not commonly shared by all proponents of your general Theology, but you ascribe to a basic system of belief which has been clearly articulated for hundreds of years by some very intelligent and capable expositors.

There is nothing new under the Sun...
Whatever you believe....
Someone Centuries and likely Millennia before you has believed and articulated it before.
It's not a secret handshake. Calvinists have been teaching and promoting their system quite plainly and publically for centuries.......
They've published books.
They still do.
I understand it.

I can't speak for those supposedly of my "theological conviction".

Yes you can.
As I did.

In the OP I simply wondered why so many who believe that God chose Israel for His purpose {Many people still believe the Jews are the "Elect of God".} reject the Biblical teaching that God elects, in this dispensation, certain people to Salvation in Jesus Christ, just as He did in the Old Testament.

And that is because it was God's Will to pre-determine that they do so.
All other influences and methodologies of how God operates and why he desires it to be so etc...are ancillary.

At brass-tacks....it boils down to the fact that that is what God wants.

 

[OldRegular]

I understand your belief system quite well.

Then tell me what is my belief system. Please limit it to my religious beliefs since that alone may require multiple posts; but I am patient!

I know I do...
That's because I understand an awful lot about your belief system.

I gave the invitation above so have at it!

 

[Van]

Hi Rippon, I am completely consistent. You like to charge opponents with inconsistency, but it is a ploy, a tactic, devoid of truth or merit of any kind. Using logical fallacies to bolster mistaken views is your stock and trade.

Romans 9:16 proves the T of the TULIP is mistaken doctrine, because men can will and work to achieve salvation, something denied by Calvinism. Will Rippon address this fact, or will he change the subject?

Romans 11:4 teaches God makes conditional elections, the gracious choice of firm believers, like the 7000, and as described in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, chosen through faith in the truth.

So having no answer, they disparage and change the subject.

 

[Van]

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Question, and please answer it by quoting the question, then posting yes or no, then an explanation. If you are unwilling to directly answer question, then just say I only ask questions, I do not answer them.

Were you spiritually in Christ when you believed or or did you believe and then you were set apart in Christ. Saved by grace through faith teaches we had faith before we were saved. It is like entering a room through a door. You must go through the door before you enter the room.

 

[Greektim]

Romans 9:16 proves the T of the TULIP is mistaken doctrine, because men can will and work to achieve salvation, something denied by Calvinism.

Hmmm...

Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

I fail to see how this discounts total depravity. In fact, it seems to affirm it. Men are so depraved, that no matter how much will or exertion they put forth to earn salvation, it will never be enough. It must be a divine work of God to overcome the depraved will.

Again, the context is about God being just in choosing someone for mercy and by implication not someone else. It doesn't matter what you do, God's election is not based on that.

As I asked before, but don't think I ever received an answer, Van, am I correct in understanding that you believe Rom. 9 to be about salvation?

 

[Rippon]

On 11/1/2013 you said:"Romans 9:16 teaches men can will and work to be saved,thus spiritual inability is once again shown to be mistaken doctrine." I had replied with:"You turn Scripture on its head. Listen and read closely:'It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.' "

Then Van said in reply:"Why would God still blame us for our choices after He hardened our heart? My answer is He would not."

And of course Van sounded just like the objector to Paul in Romans 9:"One of you will say to me:'The why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?' "

Paul concludes the matter with :"But who are you, a human being,to talk back to God? 'Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,"Why did you make me like this?' " and following.

This post is certainly necessary to warn people of Van's departure from Biblical moorings.

Here's another example of poor theology from the Vanster:"Only an irrational mind would say punishing someone else for the sins of another is right." (11/1/2103)