Why Would a Pastor Condone Freemasonry

[frewtloop]

More masonic propaganda, with no Scriptural basis. Just because in the past apostate masons who claimed to be Christian wrote these words do not make them truth. Just because a select portion of Scripture is used in the lodge, does not make the lodge of God.

More like the old antimasonic "bait-and-switch" shell game: put forth the challenge, when the challenge gets answered, change the rules.

Sorry, but no go on your refusal to accept the clear history of where things came from and how they came to be as they are in Freemasonry. This was one small portion of the entirety. The whole chapter is even more interesting. And by your standard, just because you scoff at historical information, makes it no less historical.

TW

 

[Jacob Webber]

2Ch 2:14 The son of a woman of the daughters of Dan, and his father was a man of Tyre, skilful to work in gold, and in silver, in brass, in iron, in stone, and in timber, in purple, in blue, and in fine linen, and in crimson; also to grave any manner of graving, and to find out every device which shall be put to him, with thy cunning men, and with the cunning men of my lord David thy father.

(Hiram was a worker of metals not masonry)

Bro Tony did you even read what I posted straight from the Scripture. It says (skilful to work in gold, and in silver, in brass, in iron, in stone , and in timber, in purple, in blue, and in fine linen, and in crimson; also to grave any manner of graving, and to find out every device which shall be put to him). I believe the part that is in bold backs up His Mason qualifaction. According to this passage this man was very talented.

 

[Bro Tony]

TW

 

[Bro Tony]

TW

You can choose to believe history from a masonic perspective if you would like, that does not make it genuine. Clearly, you have chosen to be deceived by sources that have an agenda to propagate. The deluded masons who wrote concerning the place of Christianity and the Bible in their day are no less deceive and wrong as you and Jacob are concerning the compadability of masonry and Christianity today. If you choose to be misled thats up to you, you will have to answer for that and not only that but your misleading of others. "Blind leading the blind"

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

Jacob,

I did read the whole thing, it does not constitute the establishment of freemasonry, even your own members all don't agree with this. You have created a myth from the Scripture. There is nothing in the Scripture about freemasonry. And you still haven't dealt with the mythological figure of Hiram Abiff. You need to heed the warning concerning not adding to or taking away from God's Word.

I also find it ironic for those of you who don't believe that freemasonry is a religion to keep using the Bible to justify yourselves and your system. Again, if you choose to be involved that is your decision, just don't come on here claiming to be a Christian then blaspheme the Word of God with your false system and not expect believers to speak out. I fear for you, I pray for you. Come on out.

Bro Tony

 

[frewtloop]

You can quote your masonic revision of history until your blue in the face and it will not make any difference.

Your true colors are beginning to show ("blue in the face," that is).

What you call "masonic revision" is a matter of record, these are documents mentioned in the section I quoted, that predate any other representations of masonic ritual in existence. Besides, the book is not even a masonic one, it is a book on many forms of spirituality that have been referred to as "esoteric," not a format in which you would expect to find revisionist attempts.

Such vehement denials seem strange for someone who has not been posting to this topic lately.

TW

 

[Bro Tony]

Such vehement denials seem strange for someone who has not been posting to this topic lately.

Worm,

You need to do a little historical research yourself. If you go back even to the beginning of this current debate you will see my responses. If you go a little further back in previous debates on freemasonry and other topics you will see other responses. Regardless of what you think I will vehemently contend for "the faith the was once and for all given to the saints". You have proven throughout this debate where you allegience lies and where you stand. Your colors are very clear also, you have shown yourself to be both deceived and deceiver.

Bro Tony

 

[Jacob Webber]

Bro Tony
(And you still haven't dealt with the mythological figure of Hiram Abiff)

I posted 3 chapters of the Bible concerning Hiram, how have I not dealt with Him. And I am confused about something. You said to put Masonry in the Light of Scripture. I shown you were Hiram is in the Bible and were Hiram worked with Stone using Scripture. I have shown how Scripture it self uses Symbols to represent Christ and you have totally just ignored them. I have put Masonry in the Light of Scripture and you get upset for me using Scripture as you requested. Please Explain?

(There is nothing in the Scripture about freemasonry)
No there isn't Freemasonry did not come out openly until 1717. But the teaches go back to Christ and the OT.

 

[frewtloop]

The same source already quoted has some interesting content to it regarding Freemasonry. As stated already, it is not a masonic work, which makes it all the more remarkable to find the following:

We are therefore led to ask the following questions. Has Freemasonry an esoteric content at all? Has it an esoteric content, and more generally a spiritual content, of its own? What are its relations with morals and religion, and to various specific esoteric doctrines?

The basic principles of Freemasonry give some rather limited and partial answers to these questions. Freemasonry is definitely not a religion, but its members must be religious men. They may belong to different religions, and they must be tolerant of others' opinions. It is forbidden to discuss religious matters during masonic work. They must all believe in God, the Great Architect of the Universe, and in the immortality of the soul. They must also believe that God reveals himself to humanity in the volume of the sacred law, which is for each of them the sacred book of his own faith, on which he takes the oath that binds him to the order. He must regard all men as brethren, since they are creatures of the same God, and from this principle all masonic morals are derived, especially the practice of charity, which is the main feature of the exoteric side of the society. (Ibid., p. 249)

Not a religion, nor an amalgamation of many religions. A group of men who come together in recognition of a system that inculcates morals and virtues that there are no standards against, in any of the religious systems that may exist. Fraternal relationship, on the ground of all being alike as human creatures made by the same Creator.

I also find it ironic for those of you who don't believe that freemasonry is a religion to keep using the Bible to justify yourselves and your system.

I find it even more ironic that the antimasons on the forum keep challenging us to find things that are Christian-based within Freemasonry, and then every time we do, keep scolding us for doing so.

Besides, your complaint seems to have a huge hole in it: show me in the historical piece I quoted, just exactly where any Scripture was used to make any points. All the piece did was describe the rituals as "written by clerics" and Christian in content as they appeared in their earlier medieval forms.


And I see you, like everyone else, have no answer to the question I posed twice already.

TW

 

[Bro Tony]

Jacob,

Jacob you did use three chapters to speak of Hiram the King of Tyre., but that is not Hiram Abiff. That the Scripture uses symbolic language in places does not equate to it condoning freemasonry. To assert that the secret and "important" teachings of freemasonry are in the Scripture yet remained hidden until the 1700's reveals the mystical nature of masonry adn the false teaching that only the enlightened ones know for sure.

No there isn't Freemasonry did not come out openly until 1717. But the teaches go back to Christ and the OT.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I really wish you would quit propagating this false assertion. Even some in your own lodges don't believe this. And it gives the false impression that masonry was established by the Lord. You again are dangerously close to attributing that which is false to our blessed Lord. That is blasphemy.

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

It can only have consisted of such speculation about the Bible as took place among the clerics themselves, of research into the arcana of the holy book and of the Christian religion. Everything that was not of Christian origin must have been, at least formally and superficially, christianized.

it is not difficult to guess what the spiritual content of medieval Operative Masonry must have been. It could only have been thoroughly Christian and certainly reflected the teachings of the clerics; that is to say, it was founded on the Bible and biblical exegesis,

TW,

Read your own post. I by the way my statements not only dealt with your article, but also Jacobs three chapters from the Bible. You continue to call those who oppose the false teachings of the lodge antimasons. I view your stand and believe anti-christ.

Bro Tony

 

[frewtloop]

You again are dangerously close to attributing that which is false to our blessed Lord. That is blasphemy.

Assuming for a moment you are wrong (you are, imo), then is it any less blasphemy labeling as false that which is of God?

No answer necessary, it's rhetorical only, just making a point that trying to establish your own position by such labeling gets a discussion nowhere, gives you the appearance of an accuser, and ends up doing nothing for the position you seek to defend.

TW

 

[Bro Tony]

Assuming for a moment you are wrong (you are, imo), then is it any less blasphemy labeling as false that which is of God?

No answer necessary, it's rhetorical only, just making a point that trying to establish your own position by such labeling gets a discussion nowhere, gives you the appearance of an accuser, and ends up doing nothing for the position you seek to defend.

TW

That's an interesting way to avoid an important issue. We all have a source of truth, but there is only one true Source of Truth. I choose the Word. By its standard freemasonry is shown as false, so I have no fear of calling it what it is. You apparently do not hold that the Scripture is the sole source of Truth. I am willing to be judged by a desire to follow God's Word. Are you really willing to be judged by your source of "truth"? You don't need to answer--It is just a rhetorical question that you have already answered many times.

Bro Tony

 

[O.F.F.]

Worm,

What happened to your website you provided us earlier? It seems to no longer exist.

http://www.freewebs.com/anti-anti-masonicstufff.htm

It was free, so I'm sure cost wasn't an issue. The quality was bad, but you warned us that it was still "under construction." Just curious to know the reason why you took it down. I trust others would like to know too. Has it already served your purpose, or what?

Mike

 

[frewtloop]

"Bro. Tony,"

Your charge was,

"I also find it ironic for those of you who don't believe that freemasonry is a religion to keep using the Bible to justify yourselves and your system."

My response was in light of the fact that I have not "used the Bible" to justify anything, I used a historical source written by someone interested in esoteric spirituality to prove another point that you yourself had also raised,

"Masons did not get their ritual, at any time in history, from Christianity of the Christian Bible."

The evidence I provided, not "using the Bible," but using historical records of Freemasonry itself, proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that your statement as thus worded is presumptive and entirely false. "Using the Bible to justify yourselves" automatically implies some relation to content, either citing directly, or referring to, specific Scripture passages.

It's a long stretch to go from there to what I did, which was to quote a historical work, which quotes historical documents, which reveal that the medieval forms of the masonic rituals were "founded on the Bible," or "consisted of speculation about the Bible."

Pardon the misread, but as I said, your statement's implications were pretty clear.

And I notice for the third time, you have continued to ignore my question.

TW

 

[Bro Tony]

Mike,

Check your private messages for a personal message. God Bless,

Bro Tony

 

[Jacob Webber]

Bro Tony

(Jacob you did use three chapters to speak of Hiram the King of Tyre)

Those chapterstalk about Hiram Abif not the King of Tyre.

2 Ch 2:14 The son of a woman of the daughters of Dan, and his father was a man of Tyre,

Unless the King Hiram of Tyre was of jewish desendant and worked with solomons workers and made the Pillars Jachin and Boaz than it was Hiram Abiff son of a Jewish woman.

(I really wish you would quit propagating this false assertion. Even some in your own lodges don't believe this. And it gives the false impression that masonry was established by the Lord.)

I am not saying it came directly from God I am saying that Freemasonry uses the teachings of the Bible. Such as Brotherly Love and Charity. These lesson go back to the OT.

Again are you reading my post or just scanning over them.

 

[frewtloop]

By its standard freemasonry is shown as false,

Then, if you are still following the original challenge and response, and you speak of the cited work and its premises, showing that it has a standard of an eminently Christian foundation in the Word, do you realize that by declaring that standard false, you have just declared the Bible to be false?

Still waiting to see if you can answer my earlier question, being such an expert on Freemasonry.

TW

 

[Bro Tony]

TW,

My point was that even your "historic" evidence is filled with masons claiming the Scripture as justification for their practices. That you have not personally quoted Scripture is not the point of the matter, you used information pointing to the importance of Scripture in masonic tradition. Even if that use is erronious.

As to your question, I do not answer loaded questions where the intent of the question asked is not made clear. It sounds to similar to what Satan did when he said, "Did not God say..." If you want to put the whole thing out there where it can all be seen I would be glad to discuss it with you. As long as you deal in serets and shadows I will not take the bait.

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

Then, if you are still following the original challenge and response, and you speak of the cited work and its premises, showing that it has a standard of an eminently Christian foundation in the Word, do you realize that by declaring that standard false, you have just declared the Bible to be false?

I have already stated I do not recognize the "facts" in your cited work to be valid. And even if it was historically correct in stating that is what freemasonry believes, that does not make freemasonry beliefs valid. I could write a history of mormons and their beliefs and my information about their beliefs would be factual, that does not make their beliefs valid.

Bro Tony