Why Would a Pastor Condone Freemasonry

[frewtloop]

My point was that even your "historic" evidence is filled with masons claiming the Scripture as justification for their practices. That you have not personally quoted Scripture is not the point of the matter, you used information pointing to the importance of Scripture in masonic tradition.

And my point is, I gave you exactly what you asked for.

 

[Gina B]

TW, you might be interested in this link, there's quite a discussion going on there about freemasonry.
http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=7975515#post7975515
Gina

 

[Bro Tony]

Jacob,

I mis wrote when I called Hiram king of Tyre. I meant to say Hiram a man of from Tyre as it says in the Scripture. I apologize for my mis-statement of his identity.

Unless the King Hiram of Tyre was of jewish desendant and worked with solomons workers and made the Pillars Jachin and Boaz than it was Hiram Abiff son of a Jewish woman.

Now show me in the Bible this Hiram Abiff that the masons speak of. He is a mytholigical figure created by the lodge to propagate its false belief system. And by the way even if his full name was in the Bible (Which it is not) that would not prove any biblical connection of the Scriptures and the practice of freemasonry.
Bro Tony

 

[O.F.F.]

Worm, you were told:

Your colors are very clear also, you have shown yourself to be both deceived and deceiver.

If this statement isn't true, then please answer my question. What ever happened to your website you provided earlier to prove who you are?

This is the second time I asked the question. For someone who is so demanding about answering your questions, for you to not answer those asked of you seems pretty hypocritical. Are you trying to avoid something ma'am?

Mike

 

[frewtloop]

EXTRA CREDIT QUESTION: Can anyone tell me what was the origin of the EA ritual's proclamation of "neither naked nor clothed, barefoot nor shod?"

Looks pretty straightforward to me, I don't see a single shadow or secret about it. Either you know the answer or you don't. As one who sees his own opinion as expert, and everyone else's as suspect, even historically accurate documents that are a matter of public record, not shadowy or secretive, I assumed you would know the answer. Now all I can assume is, you either don't wish to admit you don't know, or you do know the answer and wish I did not.

At any rate, it's proven by the ritual content, from the same medieval period already mentioned, and comes from the Graham manuscript (1726) menioned in the previous work:

What can we say in fact about the spiritual content of this seventeenthcentury Masonry? The documents of the seventeenth century proper are of limited help here, but some documents of the beginning of the following century and even of the first years of the Grand Lodge period (from 1717 on) give us complementary evidence, since they can be safely assumed to be copies of older documents or to reflect a situation which continued that of the preceding century.
The first point is the persistence of the Christian character of the order. The Old Charges of the seventeenth century maintain that the mason's duty is to be faithful to God and his Holy Church. Many of them begin with an invocation to the Holy Trinity. Moreover, Scottish rituals of the end of the century show that the masons' oath was taken not only on the Bible but more precisely on the Gospel of St. John. That custom must have been observed in England, too, at least in the first years of the Grand Lodge period, since it passed on to the Continent in the 1720s.
The later texts show the interest of masons in the person of Christ, not to say their devotion toward him. For instance, the Graham manuscript ( 1726), dealing with the clothing and posture of the candidate on taking his oath, explains them by reference to the double nature of Christ, implying that by faithfully imitating his Master, the Christian may become a participant in his divinity:

"I was neither sitting, standing . . ., naked nor clothed, shod nor barefoot.
-- A reason for such posture?
-- In regard one God one man make a very Christ, so one object being half naked half clothed, half shod half barefoot, half kneeling half standing, being half of all, was none of the whole, this shows a humble and obedient heart for to be a faithful follower of that just Jesus".

At least part of this Christ-centered spirituality[/b[ certainly came from medieval tradition. This is the case, for instance, with the passages that interpret the Great Architect of the Universe not merely as God but more precisely as Christ, as in Samuel Prichard Masonry Dissected ( 1730): "The Grand Architect and contriver of the Universe, or He that was taken up to the top of the pinnacle of the Holy Temple." Indeed, in medieval iconography the creator was always presented as Christ, while from the sixteenth century on he was presented as the Father. Another most striking instance of a piece of medieval tradition appearing in an eighteenth-century text is provided by the "Questions concerning the Temple" which form part of the Dumfries n° 4 manuscript (ca. 1710). Solomon's Temple and all its
furniture are interpreted in reference to Christ and to diverse attributes of Christ, which is perfectly in the line of medieval exegesis interpreting the Old Testament by reference to the New.
All these items appear in eighteenth-century texts as elements of a heritage which by that time was passing into oblivion among British masons. This is shown by the fact that nothing of it reappears in later British texts nor in continental Masonry. But they show that during the period of transition from Operative to Speculative Masonry, the order remained in possession of such a heritage, which was handed down to it by medieval Masonry through the changes of the Reformation period. (Ibid., p. 255-56)

You can argue all you like about how invalid this is, this historical work cites enough others that if one were to locate and read them all, this forum would be filled with the facts you deny. I myself am now interested in Samuel Prichard's [i}Masonry Dissected[/i], and I suppose I shall be hunting for it strongly. You, of course, to refute the work being cited here, must also refute Prichard's work, you must recite the validity of making any kind of points in relation to Freemasonry's rituals themselves, since after all these rituals that are precursors of the later rituals that reworded terms referring to Christ and Christianity. You and other antimasons must also cease and desist from criticizing Freemasonry on the basis of anything Anderson's Constitutions may have had to say, tempting as it may be, because this author also quotes from it authoritatively. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

The remark I had posed the question about is fascinating in light of the allegory and symbolism of Masonry. I never would have known that the "neither...nor's" of the ritual were indicative of the unique "God-man" nature of Christ, but there it is, self-described in one of the earliest copies we have of Freemasonic ritual.

I understand there is a far more recent work that makes some interesting claims also, Leon Davin's The Ritual: The Greatest Story Never Told. The author makes a strong case for Christ being behind the entire range of symbols found in the first three degrees of Masonry, plus the Royal Arch degree, based on an interpretation of the Greek letter Tau, as it appears in the rituals, as representing Christ. That should prove an interesting read as well.

I thank God that there are at least some people around who are interested in finding the truth of Freemasonry that gets distorted and concealed by antimasonic paranoia.

TW

 

[Jacob Webber]

(Now show me in the Bible this Hiram Abiff)

It seems both Hiram Abi and Hiram Abiff mean the samething My Father.

 

[frewtloop]

If this statement isn't true, then please answer my question. What ever happened to your website you provided earlier to prove who you are?

It's still there.

This is the second time I asked the question. For someone who is so demanding about answering your questions, for you to not answer those asked of you seems pretty hypocritical. Are you trying to avoid something ma'am?

Are you trying to pretend we did not resolve this matter in private as agreed upon? The fact that you are still not satisfied and in denial does not justify a pretense that it never happened. Now who's showing himself to be "deceived and deceiver?"

Am I to take it by the return to personal attacks, that you are once again out of arguments?

 

[Bro Tony]

TW,

I have never claimed to be an expert in freemasonry. I said I have studied it and in what I have studied found more than enough to clearly see that it is not compadible with biblical Christianity. You can continue to quote what masons write or have written, you can even quote what others have said about masons in history, it still does not change that masonry is false. I do not need anything masonry has to offer to bring clarity to my understanding of Christ. The Bible is all one needs.

Now it would be good if you would answer O.F.F. question. There is no one here that believes that you are not a mason. There is no one here who believes that you are a female student who has just studied masonry. Come out of the closet, your deceit continues to show.

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

It seems both Hiram Abi and Hiram Abiff mean the samething My Father.

Abi/Abiff were in Scriptures and I repeat even if the name is there it still does not establish the biblical origins of freemasonry or that freemasons had anything to do with Solomon's temple. Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

Abi/Abiff were in Scriptures and I repeat even if the name is there it still does not establish the biblical origins of freemasonry or that freemasons had anything to do with Solomon's temple. Bro Tony

I meant the word "were" to read "Where"

 

[frewtloop]

Now show me in the Bible this Hiram Abiff that the masons speak of. He is a mytholigical figure created by the lodge to propagate its false belief system. And by the way even if his full name was in the Bible (Which it is not) that would not prove any biblical connection of the Scriptures and the practice of freemasonry.

There is a real Hiram that the story is loosely founded upon. Freemasonry does not claim any actual truth to his story, it is allegorical. This has been said over and over, why do you still attack symbolic rituals on literal grounds? Freemasonry has plenty of "biblical connections," but the literal figure of Hiram is not the place to look for them. Look instead for the principles Masonry teaches, and, as I'm beginning to discover by uncovering some of the history, perhaps another good place to look is in symbols that may have reference to Christ. Some are easy to see, like a lambskin leather apron representing purity, as the emblem of the lamb in Scripture represents the purity of Christ. Others are harder, like the duality of ritual phrases representing the dual nature of our Lord. But it's beginning to become a much clearer picture, I just can't quite figure why you're trying to obscure the truth.

 

[frewtloop]

There is no one here that believes that you are not a mason. There is no one here who believes that you are a female student who has just studied masonry. Come out of the closet, your deceit continues to show.

Last time I checked, I was not the topic. You are following a poor example set by someone here who resorts to personal attack when his arguments are refuted. Let's stick to topic--or is the water too deep?

TW

 

[O.F.F.]

Worm, regarding your website:

After some work, I discovered that you simply have it listed wrong in your profile:

This works: http://www.freewebs.com/anti-anti-masonicstufff/

This doesn't: http://www.freewebs.com/anti-anti-masonicstufff.htm

Mike

 

[Bro Tony]

There is a real Hiram that the story is loosely founded upon. Freemasonry does not claim any actual truth to his story, it is allegorical.

That is your view, clearly not Jacobs. And if you had read my post you would see that I stated that not all masons hold to this Scripture referring to Hiram Abiff. It was Jacob who said these verses refer to Hiram Abiff, not I.

Secondly, I feel sorry for you that you have to find sources outside the Word of God to help you understand who Jesus is. No writing or ritual can reveal the truth about Jesus. He is reveal through His Word by the Holy Spirit. Anything else is at best a partial truth, which makes it no truth at all. I am not trying to obscure or reject the truth, for the Truth is found in God's Word not the lodge.

Finally, as I stated it would be I knew this discussion would get no where. How could it, my source is the Bible, yours comes from many sources. If we can't agree on truth, we can't have a meaningful discussion. So I will close and remove myself until the time comes again when someone tries to attribute to God that which is contrary to Him. If that makes you feel you have won the debate, than you can continue to deceive yourself. The Word stands on its own, and I will put my trust in Jesus and His Word. How I pray you would.

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

Last time I checked, I was not the topic. You are following a poor example set by someone here who resorts to personal attack when his arguments are refuted. Let's stick to topic--or is the water too deep?

The essence of the topic is honesty. If one is deceptive in one thing it certainly doesn't speak well of others. That being said you are free to play your deceptive games, just not with me.

 

[O.F.F.]

Bro Tony said to The Worm:

There is no one here who believes that you are a female student who has just studied masonry.

All I can say is, for anyone to know Freemasonry like she knows it, and to speak of it with such confidence, is no mere speculation. To speak of it so ardently as if she wears a Masonic Apron, yet still not be a Mason, is absolutely mind-boggling. She knows more about Freemasonry than many Masons I know who have been in the Lodge for several years. Heck, she knows more than me and I was in it for a decade.

Therefore, I find it hard to believe she's not a Mason. However, if she -- or he -- is deceiving us the Lord will bring it to light in due time. And if it's true, that she is a he who is a Mason, then the topic is about her: the deception of Freemasonry, and "why would a pastor condone, or defend it?"

It would suggest that he registered for this forum under false pretenses. If so, a more relevant question might be - if it's true - why would this board tolerate it, rather than expose it? (Ephesians 5:11)

Mike

[ June 04, 2004, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: O.F.F. ]

 

[frewtloop]

The essence of the topic is honesty. If one is deceptive in one thing it certainly doesn't speak well of others.

Exactly. And now having found evidence that exposes antimasonic deceptions for what they are in one thing here, it doesn't speak well for the other claims they have continually made.

TW

 

[frewtloop]

All I can say is, for anyone to know Freemasonry like she knows it, and to speak of it with such confidence, is no mere speculation. To speak of it so ardently as if she wears a Masonic Apron, yet still not be a Mason, is absolutely mind-boggling. She knows more about Freemasonry than many Masons I know who have been in the Lodge for several years. Heck, she knows more than me and I was in it for a decade.

The tactic is not new. Post something that significantly refutes antimasonic positions, and they will immediately resort to "kill the messenger" approaches, figuring if they can tear down the person, the evidence will follow. I stick by the truth of my posts, and you challenge who I am. So be it. I will not get into a personality match. I will continue to post to topic. You, of course, are free to challenge--or to admit you have no challenge by continuing your personal attacks.

Besides, I've done some homework. Don't you post as a moderator in places where there are female moderators who are just as well-informed as anyone else around? Deny it if you wish, I've checked it out. My question is, since you raise issues of hypocrisy yourself, why shouldn't the same charge be levelled against you for being accepting of a woman's ability to investigate and comprehend Masonry there but not here? Or do women rate well in intelligence in your book only when they agree with you? Sorry, if you're looking for compliant females to sit back and shut up and wait till they get home so they can ask their husband, you picked the wrong one. I can't help it if dealing with a drunk daddy gave me a little gravel in the gut and spit in the eye.

For the topic:

They say "what goes around, comes around," and it sure proves itself a lot of ways. Antimasons were not invented yesterday; in fact, they didn't just arise in the 1800's in political America either. They've been around quite awhile:

It may be noted that already in the seventeenth century, in Scotland as well as in England, the secrecy in which the masons wrapped themselves and their proceedings aroused popular comment and suspicion. They were supposed to have magical powers, or even to make a covenant with the devil; and a London leaflet of 1698 plainly denounces them as a "devilish sect" and as being "the Anti-Christ," thus foreshadowing what was later to be the fate of Freemasonry in some countries. Some texts more gently -- and sometimes humorously -- associate Freemasonry with the "Brotherhood of the Rosy-Cross" and/or the "Hermetic Adepti." There is, however, no evidence of any real connection at that time between Masonry and Rosicrucianism or alchemy. A text of 1676 also associates Freemasonry with the "Modern Green Ribbon'd Caball" and, though the latter society is clearly fanciful, its name probably contains an allusion to Kabbalah, which would be nearer to the mark, as we shall see later.

The main reason such attacks began, it seems, was the beginning of Freemasonry's stance that people of other beliefs were to be invited in, their beliefs tolerated, and their religions understood. And so it was inevitable that they would eventually be mischaracterized:

They are no longer Christian, but point to an interest in Jewish esoterism. Since the Jews were certainly not admitted into Masonry in the seventeenth century, such speculative elements must have been introduced by adepts of the Christian Kabbalah movement. The example of Elias Ashmole (though in his case Kabbalah was not his main field of interest) shows that persons interested in all kinds of esoteric knowledge entered Masonry. There is no doubt that they were led to do so by the notion that Masonry had secrets and by the hope of finding such knowledge there as appealed to them. They were apt to develop along their own lines of interest the elements of the medieval heritage which seemed to answer their hope and to enrich thereby the speculative content of Freemasonry. Such elements seem indeed to have been present, so that the process we are describing was a rather natural development.
The most obvious outcome of this process is the multiplication of Hebrew words that appear, though often in corrupted form, in several texts of the 1720s. One of them, A Mason's Examination ( 1723), has even the word RoSheM (wrongly written RoSeM in Hebrew letters. On the other hand, definite kabbalistic items remain rare. The most striking one seems to be the following passage of The Whole Institution of Freemasons opened ( 1725): "Yet for all this I want the primitive word, I answer it was God in six Terminations, to wit I am." This is in my view a clear allusion to the six permutations of the trigrammaton YHW, by which, according to the Sepher Yetsirah (1.8), God has sealed the six directions of space, and which are identical with the six last Sephiroth Belimah.
If, as I believe, those introducing such pieces of Jewish esoterism in Freemasonry were Christian kabbalists, they certainly did not mean to substitute them for the older Christian speculation, but rather to shed a new light on it thereby. The situation, however, changed in the eighteenth century. Partly under the spontaneous trend of the century and partly under the urge to facilitate the admission of non-Christians into Freemasonry, the Christian character of the order gradually faded away (though not everywhere completely), giving place to more and more non-Christian speculation, which could freely develop within the frame of a Masonry almost completely drained of its earlier spiritual content.

The author speculates also that in the beginning of the shift, at least, the interest was not in pulling in those of other religions, but of other denominations. A strong case is made that this development of Jewish elements arriving with their influence, was not something that was embraced or even welcomed by Freemasons.

Some very different pictures develop when truth of masonic history comes out instead of antimasonic accusations.

 

[Ben W]

Originally posted by TheWorm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />TW, how did you come to know so much about freemasonry? I noticed this is the only topic you've posted on here and it's got me wondering why/how it interests you to this degree. (Pun intended? Lol)

I'm the youngest in my family of six children, my dad abandoned the family when he ran off with another woman. Mama probably never knew I saw it, but when we went to church and the deacons came up to shake her hand, they had money that would change over from their hand to hers. I found out later these men were Masons, and I suppose that kind of thing is bound to leave an impression on you. Had it not been for these men and their loving concern, I don't know how we could have made it, certainly not on Mama's salary as a store clerk. When her car died, she was provided a new one, not literally "new," a used car in very good condition, at no cost and no questions asked. I guess the interest is partly because it's hard to ignore such caring people who see a need and respond in caring ways. And I suppose, in a way, an organization of men of character is attractive to someone abandoned by the man who should be the most influential man in her life.

And by the way, this is not the only place I've posted.

TW </font>[/QUOTE]I am really sorry to hear of the hardship that you grew up in. I am really upset that people can be locked into a situation where they go to work at a job and still cannot earn enough money to cope with living expenses. In the BB members forum there is a post there about a member whose husband was laid off and he is working two jobs yet is unable to earn enough to pay the weekly bills. That makes me really sad when you think that you are out there working and yet it is still not enough to support your family, That would absolutley destroy my spirit over time.

One part of the Stone Masons was the Trade Guilds which existed to help one another. Over many years this led to the formation of Trade Unions. Yet as I see it, the Trade Union movement is not working as it should and all over the place people are being hard done by.

Thank God that He put people into your families life that were able to see your need and deal with it. In my opinion the best churches are those that seek to help members in the congregation that are struggling. Families need to help each other when times are tough. Yet it has been my experience that sole parents in churches are being told to give 10% of their benefit to the church and God will take care of it all. yet in reality all that happens is people dont physically have 10% ti give and end up either staying and feeling under condemnation or leaving the church. Instead of the churches manipulation sole parents to give them money, the churches should be giving to them.

If we could return to a system like that, we would take the world apart in revival.

 

[Jacob Webber]

Bro Tony
13 And now I have sent a cunning man, endued with understanding, of Huram my father’s, (Hiram Abiff)

Bro Tony
I stated that Freemasonry teaches lessons based on the charater Hiram Abiff at King Solomon's Temple. I have should you that this character is in the Bible. I am not trying to prove Freemasonry has been around since Biblical Times I said it came out publicly in 1717. The Knights Templar has been around for along time.


(That is your view, clearly not Jacobs. And if you had read my post you would see that I stated that not all masons hold to this Scripture referring to Hiram Abiff. It was Jacob who said these verses refer to Hiram Abiff, not I.)

Again Tony are you even reading my posted. I said based on the charater Hiram Abiff becuase the Bible only says that what He made and that he worked with King Solomon. The rest, the lessons that Freemaosnry teaches with Hiram Abiff are allegory because even thou they could be true they are not recorded and Freemaosnry does not contradict what is said in the Bible.