Yet you would believe that God sends "innocent little jungle boy" to hell because He (God) is a racist that never chooses "little jungle boys" and chooses more white people than any other race.
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Why would God punish people that have no chance of salvation?
- Thread starter seekingthetruth
- Start date
Yet you would believe that God sends "innocent little jungle boy" to hell because He (God) is a racist that never chooses "little jungle boys" and chooses more white people than any other race.
Who is this "innocent little jungle boy"? Are you telling me there is a "jungle boy" that has never sinned? If he has sinned, then he deserves hell because he is a sinner.
seekingthetruth
New Member
First of all, nobody goes to hell because they are a sinner. We are all sinners.
Every sin known to man can be forgiven by God, except the sin of unbelief.
People go to hell for not repenting of their sin.
Jim said it 100% correct in his post where he said we are all sinners, some of us are just forgiven. Elect, non-elect, we are all equally sinners in the flesh. So, the only sin that will send us to hell is not repenting and accepting the gift of the cross.
Back to my OP. If God decided not to save me before I was born, where is the justice in sending me to hell if I am denied an oppurtunity to repent?
And I have wondered myself many times how "jungle boy" gets into heaven without ever hearing the gospel. I don't know.
What is the Calvinist position on this? If the jungle boy is one of the elect, how does he get to heaven if the missionary never makes it that deep into the jungle?
John
Every sin known to man can be forgiven by God, except the sin of unbelief.
People go to hell for not repenting of their sin.
Jim said it 100% correct in his post where he said we are all sinners, some of us are just forgiven. Elect, non-elect, we are all equally sinners in the flesh. So, the only sin that will send us to hell is not repenting and accepting the gift of the cross.
Back to my OP. If God decided not to save me before I was born, where is the justice in sending me to hell if I am denied an oppurtunity to repent?
And I have wondered myself many times how "jungle boy" gets into heaven without ever hearing the gospel. I don't know.
What is the Calvinist position on this? If the jungle boy is one of the elect, how does he get to heaven if the missionary never makes it that deep into the jungle?
John
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I see you can't answer the question.
Yes, people to go hell because they are a sinner. One that doesn't go to hell is because he has had the payment for his sin taken care of. We all deserve hell because of our sin.
so Jesus paid it some. Everyone was an unbeliever at one point in their life.
sinners deserving hell go to hell because they are a sinner and deserve hell. Yes, God has offered a way to not have to go to hell and they have rejected it. But that doesn't negate the original cause of their punishment of hell.
The justice is that you are a sinner. God didn't have to forgive anyone. He could have sent everyone to hell and we would all have received our deserved punishment. So if God didn't give someone a chance to be saved, they would go because they are receiving punishment for their sin.
Romans 1:20
All the elect will be saved. God in his providence will have someone tell him the gospel. He deserves hell just like you and I deserve hell.
[
Wow!
So Jesus didn't die for the sin of unbelief?
He doesn't! Unless you believe one can get there without doing what you say they must do. So now who's God is unfair?
What is your answer. The Calvinist answer is irrelevant since you reject Calvinism.
Wow!
So Jesus didn't die for the sin of unbelief?
He doesn't! Unless you believe one can get there without doing what you say they must do. So now who's God is unfair?
What is your answer. The Calvinist answer is irrelevant since you reject Calvinism.
Tom Butler
New Member
I suggest that you'll find the answer to your question in Romans 2:14 and just about all of Romans 9
First, Paul says that those who have never heard the gospel will not be judged for unbelief. They will be judged by their own moral code, for they are what Paul describes as "a law unto themselves." They have an innate sense of right and wrong, but are unable to even perfectly keep their own moral code.
Then, Paul says in 9:18
This triggers the question you asked. Paul anticipated the question 2000 years ago.
Then Paul puts the hammer down.
He says plainly that the potter may do what he wants to with the clay.
seekingthetruth,
re: "We all agree that the only sin that sends us to hell is the sin of unbelief. How can a person be guilty of that sin if they were never given the chance or choice to believe?"
And since a person cannot consciously CHOOSE to believe things, what is the person suppose to do?
re: "We all agree that the only sin that sends us to hell is the sin of unbelief. How can a person be guilty of that sin if they were never given the chance or choice to believe?"
And since a person cannot consciously CHOOSE to believe things, what is the person suppose to do?
freeatlast
New Member
I am not sure where you ever got the idea that man does not go to hell because he is a sinner. That is simply false. Second The justice is you do not deserve a chance to repent and go to heaven any more then anyone else. Going to heaven is not about justice or your right, or what is right, it is about mercy which we do not deserve. We do not even deserve a chance to hear the gospel much less accept it.
As to your last question, even though I do not claim to be a Calvinist, I have heard several testimonies of such instances and the "jungle boy", as you call them, leaves the jungle and goes to a place where they can hear the gospel when no one has went to them.
freeatlast
New Member
First off no person has any right to be saved. Read Romans 1. All are responsible because all have enough light to decide if they want God or not.
convicted1
Guest
To P4T and QTF
You two brought up two very good, very well thought out posts. Eventhough we may disagree with the way we see God operate, neither side of this debate wants, let alone desires, to see anyone punish in torment for eternity. We all, both C's and A's, desire to see everyone saved, eventhough the scriptures plainly state that many will die in their lost condition. I see are arguments much like "shadow boxing". We are fighting against something that's not even there. We all desire to see everyone saved.
You two brought up two very good, very well thought out posts. Eventhough we may disagree with the way we see God operate, neither side of this debate wants, let alone desires, to see anyone punish in torment for eternity. We all, both C's and A's, desire to see everyone saved, eventhough the scriptures plainly state that many will die in their lost condition. I see are arguments much like "shadow boxing". We are fighting against something that's not even there. We all desire to see everyone saved.
convicted1
Guest
This right here poses a question that I don't think any of us could give the one truly correct answer. Could these verses support the reason why they, Lucifer and the other fallen angels were never given the opportunity to repent??
Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mark 3:27-29
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
They were already in the presence of our triune God, and by their rebellion, could they have blasphemed, and committed what these verses were speaking about? What are your thoughts about this take, Brother?
I could be wrong, but it is "food" for thought, no?
preacher4truth
Active Member
Thanks.
But no one is saying God desires for them to be so, or suffer so.
But this must be best, and there are other matters we have no clue to, nor what other repercussions could come to pass if it were otherwise.
I've seen several judges sentence persons I've goen to court with, and sentence severely, yet at the same moment of the sentence there was compassion and sorrow.
God is just and the justifier, and He still only shows mercy upon whom He wills to do so. These are eternal truths concerning His nature and Sovereignty. Others want to paint God as something other than this and other than who He is, in a more "fair" light, and attempt to explain away these hard truths.
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freeatlast
New Member
The answer is no. By adding to scripture you are clouding your understanding. The bible never says they do not have the opportunity to repent. They have every possible opportunity to repent and do not. It has nothing to do with the person. It has to do with the sovereignty of God.
God does not offer salvation to all if He did not atone for all.
Red herring. We are discussing humans not aliens, lions, tigers, etc.
You cannot conclude an angel has an opportunity to repent based on the argument from silence the Bible does not say they can't. Faulty logic. Christ died for humans, not angels.
I think its very pertinent, since some people are arguing that it would be unfair for God to simply punish people who sin without giving them an opportunity to repent. Yet with the angels, who were sentient creatures with moral ability, God made no provision for their salvation, but simply cast them out. The question remains: If He did that with angels, what different circumstance would make it unfair to do that with humans?