Why would God punish people that have no chance of salvation?

[webdog]

I have. Now you explain it to me. If you can.

If you've read it you should know what it says, it really needs no explanation, it's quite straightforward and to the point. It answers your question.

 

[seekingthetruth]

For those that keep saying that we go to hell for our actual physical sins in life let say this.

I believe that the sentence for our actual sins is a physical death. Our bodies die because of the sins we commit during life. I don't believe we go to hell because of our physical sins. The price we pay for that is a physical death.

I believe that the spiritual death is failure to accept the gift of salvation through Jesus. We don't go to hell unless we die the spiritual death, this is the reason I say that the only sin that sends us to hell is the sin of unbelief.

We all have to die the physical death because we are sinful. But the only ones that die the spiritual death are the ones that reject the gift of the cross.

John

 

[Grasshopper]

Go back an read post 20 and then please stop bothering me with your spite.

John

This from your opening post:

I believe that if I was a Calvinist that I would really have to question the very existence of hell.

Just answering in like manner. If you can't take it perhaps you shouldn't dish it out.

 

[Grasshopper]

If you've read it you should know what it says, it really needs no explanation, it's quite straightforward and to the point. It answers your question.

You can't answer it either. From now on perhaps all Calvinists should just say "read John 6" when asked to explain their beliefs.

 

[webdog]

You can't answer it either.

Wrong. It's in Romans 1. Read it.

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

 

[webdog]

For those that keep saying that we go to hell for our actual physical sins in life let say this.

I believe that the sentence for our actual sins is a physical death. Our bodies die because of the sins we commit during life. I don't believe we go to hell because of our physical sins. The price we pay for that is a physical death.

Jesus died physically...are you implying He committed personal sin?

I believe that the spiritual death is failure to accept the gift of salvation through Jesus. We don't go to hell unless we die the spiritual death, this is the reason I say that the only sin that sends us to hell is the sin of unbelief.

Spiritual death is separation due to sin, as was the case with Adam. He died the day he ate the fruit (not physically, spiritually)

We all have to die the physical death because we are sinful. But the only ones that die the spiritual death are the ones that reject the gift of the cross.

John

Again...HUGE problem here with Christ's death.

 

[preacher4truth]

For those that keep saying that we go to hell for our actual physical sins in life let (sic) say this.

I believe that the sentence for our actual sins is a physical death. Our bodies die because of the sins we commit during life. I don't believe we go to hell because of our physical sins. The price we pay for that is a physical death.

I believe that the spiritual death is failure to accept the gift of salvation through Jesus. We don't go to hell unless we die the spiritual death, this is the reason I say that the only sin that sends us to hell is the sin of unbelief.

We all have to die the physical death because we are sinful. But the only ones that die the spiritual death are the ones that reject the gift of the cross.

John

You're almost correct here, but still off, which reminds me of other groups that have a few things correct, but many other things incorrect.

Nothing in the Scriptures support what you've said here, thanks for clarifying and qualifying this erroneous teaching and philosophy of yours by stating "I believe..." You should rather get your teaching from Scriptures, yet i am beginning to believe from your posts that you're having some trouble with proper interpretation.

The part you got a "little" right? Well, your first line, (which I've highlighted for you). We actually do go to hell for our physical sins, but you left out part of it; there are also sins of the spirit. Each will send a person to hell.

The rest of what you've said is false teaching not supported by the Scriptures. People are already on their way to hell before they've rejected Christ, and they all deserve it.

According to your fallacious doctrine, everyone will go to heaven, unless they reject Jesus. So quit telling them. They'll all be just fine.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Jesus died physically...are you implying He committed personal sin?

Spiritual death is separation due to sin, as was the case with Adam. He died the day he ate the fruit (not physically, spiritually)

Again...HUGE problem here with Christ's death.

How so? the Bible says Jesus bore the sins of the world and sacrificed his life for it. He didn't die the physical death becaue He was sinful, He did it because we are sinful.

John

 

[Amy.G]

I have. Now you explain it to me. If you can.

If I can? :laugh:

As WD said, it's very straightforward. I don't know how you can miss it.

God has revealed Himself through creation and the conscience (the Law written on men's hearts). Therefore, man is without excuse. This is why there is really no such thing as an atheist. ALL men know there is a creator because the bible says they do. But some choose to reject that revelation and thereby their hearts are hardened toward God.

BUT (the greatest word in the bible btw), Jesus said that to him who wants to know God, God will give more light, or revelation of Himself. If he rejects or suppresses this light, even what he has will be taken away. This goes perfectly with what Paul is saying in Romans 1. As a man continually suppresses God's revelation, his heart becomes harder, until God turns him over to his sin and so even the general revelation that God has given to him will be gone and he will be lost in his sin forever.

This is just basic bible 101.

 

[webdog]

How so? the Bible says Jesus bore the sins of the world and sacrificed his life for it. He didn't die the physical death becaue He was sinful, He did it because we are sinful.

John

You just contradicted what you posted above. At first you said Our bodies die because of the sins we commit during life

If our bodies die due to personal sin we commit that means Jesus committed personal sin as His body died. Would you say He would not have died a physical death had He not went to the cross? Then you would have problems of Scripture stating He was human in every manner we are.

In addition, what "personal sin" did the aborted fetus or miscarried fetus commit?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Who says some people have no chance of heaven or salvation? Can't it be postulated that, reasonably, all people will hear the Gospel at some point in their lives?

Absolutely.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world

The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. (Psalm )

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuseb/b]. (Romans 1.19-20)

We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and everything in them. In the past, he let all nations go their own way. Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy." (Acts 14)

Indeed, when Gentiles [i.e. non-Jews], who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, (Romans 2.14ff)

There is not one person who can say "I never heard". EVERY-one hears.

Praise God for His provision!

 

[seekingthetruth]

You're almost correct here, but still off, which reminds me of other groups that have a few things correct, but many other things incorrect.

Nothing in the Scriptures support what you've said here, thanks for clarifying this erroneous teaching and philosophy of yours by stating "I believe..." You should rather get your teaching from Scriptures, yet i am beginning to believe from your posts that you're having some trouble with proper interpretation.

The part you got a "little" right? Well, your first line, (which I've highlighted for you). We actually do go to hell for our physical sins, but you left out part of it, there are also sins of the spirit. Each will send a person to hell.

The rest of what you've said is false teaching not supported by the Scriptures. People are already on their way to hell before they've rejected Christ, and they all deserve it.

I understand that we are already on their way to hell, what I am saying is that the only way we finally end up there is by rejecting the gift of the cross.

The big difference in our beliefs is that I believe that rejecting Jesus sends us to hell, and you believe that people are not capable of rejecting or accepting Jesus, that you have to be chosen by God to recieve mercy. Thus we are all condemned before creation but God will choose to save a few, without any giving them any choice at all.

In Calvinist theology, it is impossible for anyone to be chosen but still reject Jesus. I just can't understand that. If we have no choice to accept or reject Jesus, then Jesus wasted alot of time trying to persuade many people to accept His gospel knowing full well they couldn't????????

John

 

[Amy.G]

There is not one person who can say "I never heard". EVERY-one hears.

Praise God for His provision!

No. There have been billions that have died without ever hearing the gospel of Christ. How do you think they heard?

 

[freeatlast]

I understand that we are already on their way to hell, what I am saying is that the only way we finally end up there is by rejecting the gift of the cross.

John

No that is incorrect. Many people end up in hell who never hear of Jesus so as to have mindset to reject Him. His grace does not have to be formally rejected to end up in hell.

 

[seekingthetruth]

No that is incorrect. Many people end up in hell who never hear of Jesus so as to have mindset to reject Him. His grace does not have to be formally rejected to end up in hell.

Again, I can't answer the question of people that have never heard the gospel.

But, for us that have heard it, the only way we go to hell is by rejecting it.

John

 

[preacher4truth]

I understand that we are already on their way to hell, what I am saying is that the only way we finally end up there is by rejecting the gift of the cross.

The big difference in our beliefs is that I believe that rejecting Jesus sends us to hell, and you believe that people are not capable of rejecting or accepting Jesus, that you have to be chosen by God to recieve mercy. Thus we are all condemned before creation but God will choose to save a few, without any giving them any choice at all.

In Calvinist theology, it is impossible for anyone to be chosen but still reject Jesus. I just can't understand that. If we have no choice to accept or reject Jesus, then Jesus wasted alot of time trying to persuade many people to accept His gospel knowing full well they couldn't????????

John

I happen to believe Scripture, and that man is already on, and going to hell prior to "rejecting" Christ. That is where all the lost will go, whether they've rejected Him or not (the unsaved). Man is lost now, not some at some future date.

Your teaching is exactly what you stated yourself it is what you believe. It's not Scriptural, you're in error.

Here is how to practice your belief: Quit preaching. Everyone will be fine. No need to take a chance on them rejecting Jesus and sending them to hell. Leave them alone and let them go to heaven already. That way heaven will be full of homos, adulterers, murderers, fornicators, thieves, drunkards and such like. Shhhh. Don't tell them, they'll be OK. :thumbsup:

Oh, and by the way, Jesus never wasted His time. Also, there is much God has given that He full well knew no man can keep, and that only His Son could known as the Law.

Just because it doesn't fit your finite reason, it doesn't make it incorrect, nor does God have to fit into the little box you want Him in.

 

[preacher4truth]

Again, I can't answer the question of people that have never heard the gospel.

But, for us that have heard it, the only way we go to hell is by rejecting it.

John

No, you've already answered for them. As long as they don't reject Jesus, they're fine and will go to heaven.

Wrong again on line two above. Before they rejected it they were already going there in the first place.

 

[seekingthetruth]

I happen to believe Scripture, and that man is already on, and going to hell prior to "rejecting" Christ. That is where all the lost will go, whether they've rejected Him or not (the unsaved). Man is lost now, not some at some future date.

Your teaching is exactly what you stated yourself it is what you believe. It's not Scriptural, you're in error.

Here is how to practice your belief: Quit preaching. Everyone will be fine. No need to take a chance on them rejecting Jesus and sending them to hell. Leave them alone and let them go to heaven already. That way heaven will be full of homos, adulterers, murderers, fornicators, thieves, drunkards and such like. Shhhh. Don't tell them, they'll be OK. :thumbsup:

Oh, and by the way, Jesus never wasted His time. Also, there is much God has given that He full well knew no man can keep, and that only His Son could known as the Law.

Just because it doesn't fit your finite reason, it doesn't make it incorrect, nor does God have to fit into the little box you want Him in.

Ok, I will stop preaching. But let me ask you this. I believe i am saved and going to heaven. Can I still go to heaven even if I dont join your elite club of Calvinists?:saint:

John

 

[Grasshopper]

Again, I can't answer the question of people that have never heard the gospel.


John

Finally an answer!

 

[seekingthetruth]

Finally an answer!

Wasn't talking to you