Why would God punish people that have no chance of salvation?

[seekingthetruth]

This is what is so scarry about non-calvi doctrine. It is admittedly man centered. "Salvation is based [on] the choice we make." Jesus mentioned only once and only in the sense of salvation proviso. The 1st person plural pronoun "we" or "us" was mentioned 10 times. I find that glaring. But just an observation.

BTW, God created man to have fellowship with Him. Man broke that fellowship through sin. Why wouldn't God want man to make the choice to repent and reteurn to fellowship?

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

John, NOBODY knows how God deals with those who have never heard the gospel. All we know is that God is just and will do what is right. But not knowing how God deals with these persons does not support either the Cal or non- Cal view. We simply don't know.

So, this type of argument is meaningless, NOBODY really knows what they are talking about in this area.

Winman, I understand this, I am simply asking the one that said that if I don't know then I am clueless to explain it to me.

John

 

[freeatlast]

John, NOBODY knows how God deals with those who have never heard the gospel. All we know is that God is just and will do what is right. But not knowing how God deals with these persons does not support either the Cal or non- Cal view. We simply don't know.

So, this type of argument is meaningless, NOBODY really knows what they are talking about in this area.

Yes we do know if we believe the bible.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

[seekingthetruth]

Yes we do know if we believe the bible.

There have already been posted several scriptures on this thread that say that the Word of God reaches every man.

Can you post any scripture to back up your claim that it doesn't?

And can you show any scripture that explains what happens to men that don't hear the gospel in their lifetimes.

I am unaware of any scripture that addresses that , but since you say that "if we believe the Bible", then please, tell me exactly what scripture in the Bible?

If the scriptures posted earlier showing that God reaches every man are correct, then how is your statement "if we believe the Bible" correct?

But please show scripture that explain what happens to men that never hear the gospel.

John

 

[freeatlast]

There have already been posted several scriptures on this thread that say that the Word of God reaches every man.

Can you post any scripture to back up your claim that it doesn't?

And can you show any scripture that explains what happens to men that don't hear the gospel in their lifetimes.

I am unaware of any scripture that addresses that , but since you say that "if we believe the Bible", then please, tell me exactly what scripture in the Bible?

If the scriptures posted earlier showing that God reaches every man are correct, then how is your statement "if we believe the Bible" correct?

But please show scripture that explain what happens to men that never hear the gospel.

John

Read post 103

 

[Alive in Christ]

Freeatlast...

Yes we do know if we believe the bible.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Thats all well and good, but you are not answering what was asked of you.

You are dodging the issues that..I believe...was asked of you by "seeking the truth".

And that would be these...

There have already been posted several scriptures on this thread that say that the Word of God reaches every man.
Can you post any scripture to back up your claim that it doesn't?

and...

But please show scripture that explain what happens to men that never hear the gospel.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Read post 103

I read post #103 but it doesn't answer the question, nor does it provide scripture to back it up.

John

 

[freeatlast]

I read post #103 but it doesn't answer the question, nor does it provide scripture to back it up.

John

Read it again. It is there.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Read it again. It is there.

Well, maybe I am just plain dumb because I don't see it.

Can you spell it our for me in detail?

John

"There have already been posted several scriptures on this thread that say that the Word of God reaches every man.

Can you post any scripture to back up your claim that it doesn't?

And can you show any scripture that explains what happens to men that don't hear the gospel in their lifetimes.

I am unaware of any scripture that addresses that , but since you say that "if we believe the Bible", then please, tell me exactly what scripture in the Bible?

If the scriptures posted earlier showing that God reaches every man are correct, then how is your statement "if we believe the Bible" correct?

But please show scripture that explain what happens to men that never hear the gospel"

 

[Winman]

Freeatlast is simply saying those who have never heard of Jesus and therefore could not believe on him are damned.

This would mean if someone was born and died on some remote island where the gospel has never been preached is damned. This would mean a child who is conceived or born but died before being able to hear and understand the gospel and believe is damned.

That is what he is saying, or rather it is the necessary logical conclusion of what he is saying.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Freeatlast is simply saying those who have never heard of Jesus and therefore could not believe on him are damned.

This would mean if someone was born and died on some remote island where the gospel has never been preached is damned. This would mean a child who is conceived or born but died before being able to hear and understand the gospel and believe is damned.

That is what he is saying, or rather it is the necessary logical conclusion of what he is saying.

OK, but how does the statement he made about "if we believe the Bible" fit in?

I would still like to know where this is addressed in the Bible.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

I think I have the Calvinist teaching about the non-elect figured out.

It's like this:

I don't allow my 6 year old son to run the lawn mower because he is too little.
But, I am still going to punish him for not mowing the yard.

Is that about right? Is that justice?

John

 

[Crabtownboy]

I think I have the Calvinist teaching about the non-elect figured out.

It's like this:

I don't allow my 6 year old son to run the lawn mower because he is too little.
But, I am still going to punish him for not mowing the yard.

Is that about right? Is that justice?

John

An excellent analogy. Thanks.

 

[Winman]

OK, but how does the statement he made about "if we believe the Bible" fit in?

I would still like to know where this is addressed in the Bible.

John

He quoted Rom 10:13-14 without scripture reference.

The truth is, he could be right. The scriptures clearly say there is none other name (Jesus) under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12).

The difficulty with this is that the scriptures teach God is impartial, and no respecter of persons. God does not favor one person over another. But it seems unfair if some are never given the opportunity to believe.

Calvinists are OK with this, they simply say those who are never given the opportunity to believe are the unelect. Non-Cals have a problem with this.

It is not that simple. Jesus said those who KNEW their lord's will, but prepared not themselves, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes, but he that KNEW NOT, and did things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes (Luk 12:47-48). So perhaps those who never heard and believed on Jesus but sinned receive a lesser punishment.

But there is more;

Jn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Here Jesus seems to say those who have never heard the word of God have no sin, or rather they have a cloke or excuse for their sin.

So, it is not as simple as Freeatlast implies, there is other scripture he did not consider on this subject.

 

[Winman]

I think I have the Calvinist teaching about the non-elect figured out.

It's like this:

I don't allow my 6 year old son to run the lawn mower because he is too little.
But, I am still going to punish him for not mowing the yard.

Is that about right? Is that justice?

John

Not accurate, because your son has the ability to push the lawnmower.

A more accurate analogy would be a man who builds a robot and hardwires it so that regardless of the command given it, it will always walk away from him. He then commands it to come to him, but of course the robot walks away from him. He is then angry at his robot because it will not come to him and destroys it.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Not accurate, because your son has the ability to push the lawnmower.

A more accurate analogy would be a man who builds a robot and hardwires it so that regardless of the command given it, it will always walk away from him. He then commands it to come to him, but of course the robot walks away from him. He is then angry at his robot because it will not come to him and destroys it.

Good point, but....

It doesn't matter that he has the ability, I refuse to let him use it.

I like your analogy too.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

He quoted Rom 10:13-14 without scripture reference.

The truth is, he could be right. The scriptures clearly say there is none other name (Jesus) under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved (Acts 4:12).

The difficulty with this is that the scriptures teach God is impartial, and no respecter of persons. God does not favor one person over another. But it seems unfair if some are never given the opportunity to believe.

Calvinists are OK with this, they simply say those who are never given the opportunity to believe are the unelect. Non-Cals have a problem with this.

It is not that simple. Jesus said those who KNEW their lord's will, but prepared not themselves, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes, but he that KNEW NOT, and did things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes (Luk 12:47-48). So perhaps those who never heard and believed on Jesus but sinned receive a lesser punishment.

But there is more;

Jn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Here Jesus seems to say those who have never heard the word of God have no sin, or rather they have a cloke or excuse for their sin.

So, it is not as simple as Freeatlast implies, there is other scripture he did not consider on this subject.

Isn't there always more scripture? And in context.

An atheist may read the verse "Jesus wept" and conclude that Jesus was a crybaby.

John

 

[freeatlast]

I think I have the Calvinist teaching about the non-elect figured out.

It's like this:

I don't allow my 6 year old son to run the lawn mower because he is too little.
But, I am still going to punish him for not mowing the yard.

Is that about right? Is that justice?

John

John Are you saying you want justice?!!!! You have no concept of what you are saying! I am not a Calvinist but you clearly do not understand why man is lost, the consequences of that state, the sovereignty of God, The justice of God, and the mercy of God. In your analogy the child clearly does not deserve discipline. However in the case of man he does deserve eternal torment and no one deserves to even hear the gospel much less be saved by it. It is all mercy and God can decide who receives that mercy.
You are trying to equate from human logic, fairness with God's justice, and they are not compatible. In other words you are trying to judge God although you point to man and a doctrine.

God has the right to decide to save some and not save others and it has nothing to do with what is fair. If God was being fair then Jesus should not have went to the cross. How was it fair for Jesus to suffer for anyone else? However the cross is about mercy, not what is fair. Look at scripture and believe!

Romans 9:10-13 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

V 15-18 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

 

[seekingthetruth]

John Are you saying you want justice?!!!! You have no concept of what you are saying! I am not a Calvinist but you clearly do not understand why man is lost, the consequences of that state, the sovereignty of God, The justice of God, and the mercy of God. In your analogy the child clearly does not deserve discipline. However in the case of man he does deserve eternal torment and no one deserves to even hear the gospel much less be saved by it. It is all mercy and God can decide who receives that mercy.
You are trying to equate from human logic, fairness with God's justice, and they are not compatible. In other words you are trying to judge God although you point to man and a doctrine.

God has the right to decide to save some and not save others and it has nothing to do with what is fair. If God was being fair then Jesus should not have went to the cross. How was it fair for Jesus to suffer for anyone else? However the cross is about mercy, not what is fair. Look at scripture and believe!

Romans 9:10-13 And not only [this]; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, [even] by our father Isaac;
(For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

V 15- For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

NO no no

I am not judging God, I am judging the doctrine. I do not believe that God is unjust. But I believe that Calvinism portrays Him that way.

John

 

[freeatlast]

NO no no

I am not judging God, I am judging the doctrine. I do not believe that God is unjust. But I believe that Calvinism portrays Him that way.

John

No you are judging God because the doctrine of election is of Him, he is sovereign. Also you are trying to decide what makes Him just instead of what scripture teaches about Him and His ways. Look at the bible!

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Now I hold to both election and free will but that is another topic. However God's election is fact based on scripture and if a person does not hear and ends up in eternal torment then they were not of the elect.