Why would God punish people that have no chance of salvation?

[seekingthetruth]

If God has pre-chosen His elect, then is it the fault of the non-elect that they cannot be saved?

And if they have no chance of salvation, then why would God punish them for something they have no control over?

We all agree that the only sin that sends us to hell is the sin of unbelief. How can a person be guilty of that sin if they were never given the chance or choice to believe?

I was always taught that hell was a place of justice, were people paid for their unbelief. Where is the justice in sending people there without giving them a chance or a choice to believe?

I believe that if I was a Calvinist that I would really have to question the very existence of hell.

John

 

[Herald]

We all agree that the only sin that sends us to hell is the sin of unbelief. How can a person be guilty of that sin if they were never given the chance or choice to believe?

John, do you believe in original sin? If so, then unbelief is not the only sin that sends a person to hell.

 

[jbh28]

If God has pre-chosen His elect, then is it the fault of the non-elect that they cannot be saved?

And if they have no chance of salvation, then why would God punish them for something they have no control over?

Their punishment is because of their sin.

We all agree that the only sin that sends us to hell is the sin of unbelief.

If that's the case, then Christ shouldn't have died on the cross since that's what makes a person go to hell. Any sin is a sin that is punishable by hell.

How can a person be guilty of that sin if they were never given the chance or choice to believe?

Doesn't matter. They are a sinner and deserve the punishment for sin. And everyone that is in hell rejected Christ.

 

[matt wade]

Doesn't matter. They are a sinner and deserve the punishment for sin. And everyone that is in hell rejected Christ.

I am putting you on my list of naughty people. You are going on that list because you refused to eat the apple pie I baked today. I don't care that I never offered you any.

 

[Alcott]

We all agree that the only sin that sends us to hell is the sin of unbelief. How can a person be guilty of that sin if they were never given the chance or choice to believe?

To ask "How..." to the readers of this board is misplaced. None of us can answer that, and scripture affirms this in quoting God, "My ways are not your way..."

Therefore I think we have to get rid of this inverse gospel that we want to believe in and just carry out our mission. [By "inverse gospel" I mean what you imply in your OP; that a person must reject the gospel to be lost, rather than the scriptural must accept it to be saved.]

 

[freeatlast]

If God has pre-chosen His elect, then is it the fault of the non-elect that they cannot be saved?

And if they have no chance of salvation, then why would God punish them for something they have no control over?

We all agree that the only sin that sends us to hell is the sin of unbelief. How can a person be guilty of that sin if they were never given the chance or choice to believe?

I was always taught that hell was a place of justice, were people paid for their unbelief. Where is the justice in sending people there without giving them a chance or a choice to believe?

I believe that if I was a Calvinist that I would really have to question the very existence of hell.

John

I am not a Calvinist. I hold to both sides, election and free will. I admit I cannot get the two together but there is much in scripture that seems to oppose I cannot get together and I believe it all.
I say that because I hear this logic that you have presented many times however it is greatly flawed. First off to hold the view you proposed one has to hold the view, if only subconsciously, that people deserves right to a chance at salvation. No one deserves the right to be saved or even have a chance for salvation. All that is involved in salvation is grace and that includes the chance to hear and choose. God has reserved the right to choose who He will for Himself.
May I suggest that you read Romans 9:6-24 and focus on verse 18

 

[jbh28]

I am putting you on my list of naughty people. You are going on that list because you refused to eat the apple pie I baked today. I don't care that I never offered you any.

I made apple pie the other day and it was good. I should eat some when I get home.

As I mentioned, hell is a punishment for sin. Yes, God offers salvation to all(so your analogy misses that point) and those that go to hell have rejected Salvation. Even if God didn't offer salvation to anyone, hell would still be a deserved punishment for sin.

 

[preachinjesus]

Who says some people have no chance of heaven or salvation? Can't it be postulated that, reasonably, all people will hear the Gospel at some point in their lives?

 

[Amy.G]

God requires two things in order to accept you into His heaven.
1. A payment for your sin.
2. Faith

Christ's atonement covers the sin, but we must personally put our faith in Him.

 

[freeatlast]

Who says some people have no chance of heaven or salvation? Can't it be postulated that, reasonably, all people will hear the Gospel at some point in their lives?

"Can't it be postulated that, reasonably, all people will hear the Gospel at some point in their lives?"

No it cannot. In fact we know that some do not ever hear the gospel even using man's logic if not by the implications in Romans 10:14.

 

[JesusFan]

God requires two things in order to accept you into His heaven.
1. A payment for your sin.
2. Faith

Christ's atonement covers the sin, but we must personally put our faith in Him.

Theproblem is that being sinners, we cant even respond by faith to Christ, even that has to be gifted to us by God as part of His salvation package!

 

[preacher4truth]

What we have here is an OP that is missing the mark altogether.

"What about the innocent little native from Zimbabwe?" Or "How can God send someone to hell that is not elect?"

Same principle: None are innocent and all are sinners on their way to hell, they are all lost, and God does as He wills to do.

So whichever sinner does not become regenerate but faces eternal damnation, not being of the elect, his or her punishment is just. No one is innocent.

 

[quantumfaith]

I personally think asking the question, "What about the little native in Zimbabwe? is a question worth pondering, speculating, debating and wrestling with. My answer, at this stage in my life, is simply to ask myself the question, what am I doing or what can I do, to assist giving that child the opportunity to be exposed to the message of the Gospel of Christ. Do "I" have and urgency and passion to use my gifts, resources and time to carry out the commission of our saviour.

Aside from that, I don't know. That, to me, is ultimately only answerable by someone with a much higher paygrade than myself.

 

[JesusFan]

I personally think asking the question, "What about the little native in Zimbabwe? is a question worth pondering, speculating, debating and wrestling with. My answer, at this stage in my life, is simply to ask myself the question, what am I doing or what can I do, to assist giving that child the opportunity to be exposed to the message of the Gospel of Christ. Do "I" have and urgency and passion to use my gifts, resources and time to carry out the commission of our saviour.

Aside from that, I don't know. That, to me, is ultimately only answerable by someone with a much higher paygrade than myself.

We need to proclaim Jesus and the Cross, to allow the Lord to redeem His own people, but in the ultimate sense....

We are ALL basically left as Abraham was with" will not the Judge of the whole earth do what is right ?"

 

[preacher4truth]

I personally think asking the question, "What about the little native in Zimbabwe? is a question worth pondering, speculating, debating and wrestling with. My answer, at this stage in my life, is simply to ask myself the question, what am I doing or what can I do, to assist giving that child the opportunity to be exposed to the message of the Gospel of Christ. Do "I" have and urgency and passion to use my gifts, resources and time to carry out the commission of our saviour.

Aside from that, I don't know. That, to me, is ultimately only answerable by someone with a much higher paygrade than myself.

You've said something with grace.

We all better look at this in this manner: in awe and trembling, and in turn have a better grasp of "For by GRACE are you saved..." and muse upon this truth in and under this light.

It should humble us under Sovereign God and cause us to be in awe of who He is and eternally be grateful, asking ourselves who are we that He would show us grace, that He would choose us.

I recall David asking God the same things, as, who was he that God would choose him, 1 Chronicles 17.

 

[Amy.G]

Jesus said that to him who has, more will be given. God has given a general revelation of Himself through creation and the conscience, according to Paul. So if a man seeks the creator, God will reveal more of Himself to him. He will send someone to share the gospel with him.
There are many accounts of missionaries who have gone to such people by the leading of God.
But as Paul said, some worship the creation instead of the Creator, and so will not receive any more light, but instead their hearts will be hardened.

 

[12strings]

The primary flaw in this OP has nothing to do with calvinism. Here's why:

1. Every Person has sinned, and so deserves to end up in hell. God would be just to do that. And he would still be worthy of worship as the creator (rev. 4:11).

2. If we doubt that point 1 is true, we need only look at the angels. When multitudes of angels followed Lucifer in rebellion, "God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment." (2 Pet. 2:4)
-God did not make a way for them to be saved if only they would believe in him. He did not incarnate his son in angel form to die for them. He simply punished them for their sin. And he could have done the same with us. He very nearly did with Noah's flood.

3. God is also a God of mercy, and sent his son in order to maintain his just wrath and punishment toward sin, while at the same time saving sinners. rom. 3:26 - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

 

[Don]

I personally think asking the question, "What about the little native in Zimbabwe? is a question worth pondering, speculating, debating and wrestling with. My answer, at this stage in my life, is simply to ask myself the question, what am I doing or what can I do, to assist giving that child the opportunity to be exposed to the message of the Gospel of Christ. Do "I" have and urgency and passion to use my gifts, resources and time to carry out the commission of our saviour.

Aside from that, I don't know. That, to me, is ultimately only answerable by someone with a much higher paygrade than myself.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Grasshopper]

I am putting you on my list of naughty people. You are going on that list because you refused to eat the apple pie I baked today. I don't care that I never offered you any.

Jungle boy in deepest Africa says: What pie?

 

[Grasshopper]

And if they have no chance of salvation, then why would God punish them for something they have no control over?

Tell us anti-Calvinist, if the jungle boy lives his entire life and never even hears of this Jesus, then why would God punish them for something they have no control over?

We all agree that the only sin that sends us to hell is the sin of unbelief.

No, they all send you there.

I was always taught that hell was a place of justice, were people paid for their unbelief. Where is the justice in sending people there without giving them a chance or a choice to believe?

Yes, where is the justice in sending jungle boy to hell? Tell us heathen Calvinist the answer.

I believe that if I was a Calvinist that I would really have to question the very existence of hell.

Gee, if believed God sent innocent little jungle boy to hell having never heard the Gospel then I would have to quit being a hypocrite and apologize to the Calvinists.