Why You Should Strive to Speak in Tongues

[Salty]

I Cor 14:5 -- lets read and understand the ENTIRE verse

 

[AustinC]

What you need is determined by God and not by you. Your attitude is snip because it assumes that the gifts of the Spirit are optional. By your argument, you don't need "the (9) fruit of the Spirit" either because God's grace has allowed you to punch your ticket to Heaven. How selfish is that? Nor can you reply that if God wants you to exercise one of the spiritual gifts like tongues, He is free to give this to you. Why not? Because God's Word tells you that you must "earnestly strive for spiritual gifts" (12:31; 14:1). Besides, you need to "earnestly strive" to speak in tongues precisely because God's Word admonishes you,
I want you all to speak in tongues (14:5) and Paul encourages you, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you(14:18)." And Paul repeatedly urges us to imitate him, even as he imitates Christ.

I don't assume the gifts are optional. God gives the gift He determines to give whenever He wills.

Deadworm, you don't get to choose. You cannot conjure up a gift. God must give it.

Regarding tongues, I have been to many charismatic churches in my life. I have yet to witness any legitimate use of tongues in the decades I have been alive. Honestly, your use of tongues comes off as man-centered, not God glorifying.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Eternally Grateful: "Paul said he gave SOME this gift and SOME that gift as he wills."

Baptists misinterpret 12:31 to mean not every believer is intended to exercise these spiritual gifts, including tongues and prophecy. They misconstrue Paul's questions in 12:31 to imply that God never intends everyone to prophesy and speak in tongues. What Paul is really saying is this: "we observe that not everyone actually speaks in tongues or prophesies, leaving open the question of what God intends. Paul then makes it clear that at least the gifts of prophecy and tongues are meant for every believer. Thus, he goes on to teach, "You can ALL prophesy one at a time (14:31)." Similarly, when Paul says, "I want you ALL to speak in tongues (14:5)," he implies that this gift too is intended for everyone and then he encourages more of them to exercise this gift by saying, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you (14:18). This teaching echoes the pattern in Acts where initial reception of the Spirit is attested by speaking in tongues (2:4: 10:44-47; 19:6).

Eternally Grateful: "God does not need everyone to speak in an unknown language."

God needs nothing; we need the spiritual gifts, including tongues, a gift for every believer.

AustinC: "Let me rephrase: None of the persons whom God gave the gift of tongues were Christian before that event."

Wrong! The 120 disciples who were constantly at prayer (Acts 1:14-15), tarrying for the outpouring of the Spirit. Included in this prolonged prayer vigil were Jesus' mother and brothers, His female disciples, and the 12--all Christians. The Ephesian tongues speakers were "disciples" of Jesus (19:1). Cornelius was a god-fearer (not an idol-worshiping pagan) and he and his household in effect became Christians some time between sending messengers to bring Peter to explain more and hearing Peter's Gospel sermon. Remember, unlike Paul, Luke has no concept of the need for a regenerating work of the Spirit prior to the impartation of the gift of tongues.

Your error is the result of your failure to understand the sign significance of tongues for unbelievers in 1 Cor. 14:21-22 citing Isaiah 28:11-12). I will address that question in my next planned post.

I have been a believer born again child of God for 50 years.

1. I have never needed tongues
2. I have never missed tongues
3. I have never been in a position where I have needed tongues
4. I have never witnessed tongues used in a way which would edify ANYONE

I have, however witnessed tongues used out of context, not in an edifying way. in which I would call it satanic. more than holy spirit.

tongues were used a few ways in the NT

1. To speak to a foreigner in their old language, even if you did not understand that language (this happened on Pentecost and many other occasions

2. Used to prophecy. the person with the gift prophesied in a tongue, someone else interpreted the prophecy. and when the thing came true. The unbelievers were edified. because they witnessed not only the power of God to speak, but to prophecy.. Many came to Christ because of this.

You have failed to prove my error..

ps. praying in the spirit is NOT PRAYING IN TONGUES. It is PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT. God can speak your language, he does not need you to speak in his. He can understand you fine, and he wants to speak to YOU.. as YOU.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What you need is determined by God and not by you. Your attitude is snip

I would suggest you check your own attitude at the door before you try to check someone elses attitude..

remove the plank our your eye before you try to remove the spec out of AustinC's..

 

[Deadworm]

The bold made me laugh out loud.
It is also sad that you imagine people are "spiritually impoverished" by not having a tongues experience. From that statement we can extrapolate that all the Old Testament saints were "spiritually impoverished." "Hey Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, Daniel, etc, according to Deadworm your lack of experiencing tongues means you were spiritually impoverished."

Your presumptuous mischaracterization of my position makes me laugh! My parents were members of a mega-Baptist church for many years before they became disillusioned and I attended their church when I visited their city. A Baptist who'd served as an elder for many years got sick and his marriage broke up. So he stopped attending that church. My Dad only knew him from a couple of conversations but after a few years he was concerned by his absence; so he called him up to express his concern. The elder thanked him, adding, "I served that church as elder for many years, yet you're the only one who cared enough to seek me out and find out what's wrong!" I see Baptists as a religion without the experience of transforming divine power.

Baptists need to mischaracterize opposing views they find threatening so they can confront a manageable false caricature. Even my last carefully worded post has been edited for easier critique. But consider these 2 points:
(1) I never said a Christian needs to speak in tongues to be Spirit-baptized and I don't believe that. I haven't spoken in tongues in decades because I fear doing it in the flesh and the memory of my experience at age 16 is so electrifying and spiritually nourishing that I feed off its memory daily and, as I have said, I doubt I'd still even be a Christian, if I had never spoken in tongues. But when I did, it was by far the highlight of my life and I'm certain you would say the same if you experienced what I did at age 16.
(2) So you deny many Baptists attend spiritually impoverished churches? So share with me some of the Gospel-caliber miracles your church has witnessed. Despite the excesses of Pentecostalism, it allowed me to experience miracles throughout my life, miracles that deepened my faith in the power and ongoing relevance of the risen Christ. I will share some of them in my other thread.

 

[Deadworm]

Since you are not a Baptist -
Let me remind you that there is NO such thing as "The Baptist Church"
There are many Baptist churches - each autonomous and independent of each other.
and in addition - there are many Baptists who do claim to speak in tongues.

My parents attended a mega-Baptist church for many years prior to their disillusionment and I attended that church when I visited them. As a pastor, I observed the refusal of our large local Baptist church to join other evangelical churches once a year for worship in our park because they refused to share Holy Communion with a mainline church present. So my perception of Baptists as a denomination without "the power and demonstration of the Spirit" is based on direct observation. Please share some of the Gospel-caliber miracles your Baptist church has witnessed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

My parents attended a mega-Baptist church for many years prior to their disillusionment and I attended that church when I visited them. As a pastor, I observed the refusal of our large local Baptist church to join other evangelical churches once a year for worship in our park because they refused to share Holy Communion with a mainline church present. So my perception of Baptists as a denomination without "the power and demonstration of the Spirit" is based on direct observation. Please share some of the Gospel-caliber miracles your Baptist church has witnessed.

mind if I ask WHY you are in a baptist chat?

Your hatred of the baptist church is pretty sure.. why are you here??

If you think you are going to convert people to Pentecostalism in this thread, Your sadly mistaken..

 

[Salty]

My parents attended a mega-Baptist church for many years prior to their disillusionment and I attended that church when I visited them. As a pastor, I observed the refusal of our large local Baptist church to join other evangelical churches once a year for worship in our park because they refused to share Holy Communion with a mainline church present. So my perception of Baptists as a denomination without "the power and demonstration of the Spirit" is based on direct observation. Please share some of the Gospel-caliber miracles your Baptist church has witnessed.

First - you have not addressed one question I asked: " there is NO such thing as "The Baptist Church"

Second - There are two definitions of denominations 1) A hierarchy church govt = control of local churches (to different degrees) 2) a belief that churches have in common
Baptists do NOT have a hierarchy ! I am Southern Baptist - the SBC has no authority over our church.
Your statement about your parents church only emphasizes and proves that Baptist churches are autonomous .

What miracles have I seen: Our church saw a mountain physically moved, I saw a youth group go from 1 teen to 7 in one week - in 6 months to 40 teens. (this was a military church in Germany), We saw a brand new church start just 5 miles from the East German Border - and that church, when the American military move out - transition to a German speaking church, - is that sufficient for starters?

And actually, I have no ideal what not having communion has anything to do with "the power and demonstration of the Spirit" .
Your parents church refusal to share communion is a strong doctrine of many Baptist churches. They either believe in close or closed communion and is based on their interpretation of Scripture

 

[AustinC]

Your presumptuous mischaracterization of my position makes me laugh! My parents were members of a mega-Baptist church for many years before they became disillusioned and I attended their church when I visited their city. A Baptist who'd served as an elder for many years got sick and his marriage broke up. So he stopped attending that church. My Dad only knew him from a couple of conversations but after a few years he was concerned by his absence; so he called him up to express his concern. The elder thanked him, adding, "I served that church as elder for many years, yet you're the only one who cared enough to seek me out and find out what's wrong!" I see Baptists as a religion without the experience of transforming divine power.

Baptists need to mischaracterize opposing views they find threatening so they can confront a manageable false caricature. Even my last carefully worded post has been edited for easier critique. But consider these 2 points:
(1) I never said a Christian needs to speak in tongues to be Spirit-baptized and I don't believe that. I haven't spoken in tongues in decades because I fear doing it in the flesh and the memory of my experience at age 16 is so electrifying and spiritually nourishing that I feed off its memory daily and, as I have said, I doubt I'd still even be a Christian, if I had never spoken in tongues. But when I did, it was by far the highlight of my life and I'm certain you would say the same if you experienced what I did at age 16.
(2) So you deny many Baptists attend spiritually impoverished churches? So share with me some of the Gospel-caliber miracles your church has witnessed. Despite the excesses of Pentecostalism, it allowed me to experience miracles throughout my life, miracles that deepened my faith in the power and ongoing relevance of the risen Christ. I will share some of them in my other thread.

Honestly, I couldn't care less about your experiences. Let's go to God's word and see what He says. So far, your eyes have not once been on Christ. You have consistently fallen upon experiences as your guide. No wonder you have been tossed like a ragdoll on the waves of adversity.

 

[Deadworm]

Honestly, I couldn't care less about your experiences. Let's go to God's word and see what He says. So far, your eyes have not once been on Christ. You have consistently fallen upon experiences as your guide. No wonder you have been tossed like a ragdoll on the waves of adversity.

With Youth with a Mission, I (age 29)witnessed across eastern Canada door-to-door and in the streets and many prayed the prayer of commitment to Christ through our witness, 2 by 2. We focused on Campus Crusade's 4 spiritual laws and I stressed the wondrous opportunity of responding to Jesus' challenge: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone will hear my voice and open the door, I will come in and feast with him and he with me (Rev. 3:2). I wonder how much street and door-to-door evangelism our presumptuous Austin has done. Hmmm?

 

[AustinC]

With Youth with a Mission, I (age 29)witnessed across eastern Canada door-to-door and in the streets and many prayed the prayer of commitment to Christ through our witness, 2 by 2. We focused on Campus Crusade's 4 spiritual laws and I stressed the wondrous opportunity of responding to Jesus' challenge: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone will hear my voice and open the door, I will come in and feast with him and he with me (Rev. 3:2). I wonder how much street and door-to-door evangelism our presumptuous Austin has done. Hmmm?

LOL, are you looking for a who's more spiritual contest? Realize that was what Paul was forced to do with the infant and carnal church at Corinth. Do you really want to do this?

Second, do you have any clue that Revelation 3:20 is not a salvation verse, but instead is a verse to a lukewarm Christian church? You are abusing God's word by misapplying it.

Third, if you used the 4 spiritual laws at all, you would realize that they use the train metaphor where feelings cannot fuel the train, but facts fuel the feelings.

Sir, your infant spirit is obvious.

 

[Deadworm]

AustinC: "are you looking for a who's more spiritual contest? Realize that was what Paul was forced to do with the infant and carnal church at Corinth. Do you really want to do this?"

Let's review the absurd Baptist bigotry on full display here. I make it clear that one of my 2 threads deals with speaking in tongues and the complementary thread with my paranormal charismatic experiences. The 2 threads are thus bring each other to life. Then the same people who whine when posters going offtopic want me to explain how I'd explain the way of salvation. So I do that in post #3 in my other thread, but Salty can't be bothered to check my reply and instead complains that I didn't answer the question! All of this exudes a holier than thou odor of sanctity that assumes Baptists are more evangelistic than I am. So I go offtopic and explain how I witness and I'm accused of creating a "more spiritual contest" simply for asking Austin if he's willing to pay the price I did to witness. All this because Baptists have no answer to my biblical defense of speaking in tongues and thus need to derail . Well, stay tuned because my refutations are just getting started. This is a non-Baptist debate section, right?

AustinC: "Second, do you have any clue that Revelation 3:20 is not a salvation verse, but instead is a verse to a lukewarm Christian church? You are abusing God's word by misapplying it."

This haughty comment is ironic because I wrote a 452 page Havard doctoral thesis on Christian prophetism, focusing much on Revelation. Of course, the primary reference is to the church of Laodicea, but Jesus seeks out sinners, does he not and Rev. 3:20 can be a highly effective evangelistic tool.

You remind of my so-called prayer partner's reaction in Toronto when we approached a couple on their doorsteps to witness to them. As we drew near, we saw that they were angrily quarreling and swearing at each other. So we turned to leave, but the husband (cigarette dangling from his hand) shouted, "What do you want?" So I quietly shared the Gospel with him, the Spirit convicted, and when I asked them if they'd like me to pray with them to help them open their heart's door and invite Jesus in as their Lord and Savior, the quietly and joyfully said Yes. Just then my prayer partner interrupted and asked the man, "Did you ever ask the Lord to give you the victory over that cigarette?" This led to an argument about smoking and a chance to get this couple saved was sadly lost. I see my prayer partner's attitude as embodied in the Baptist nickpicking derailed on display here.

Austin: "Third, if you used the 4 spiritual laws at all, you would realize that they use the train metaphor where feelings cannot fuel the train, but facts fuel the feelings."

My other post deals with charismatic feelings and experiences; my witnessing put no stress on feelings. Sadly, you can't distinguishe= between someone who just wants to stay on topic and witnessing strategy. So sad!

 

[Deadworm]

Rengstorf's magisterial article on "semeion" ("sign") studies the use of this concept in secular Greek, the Greek Old Testament, other ancient Jewish literature,, the New Testament, and the apostolic fathers. What he says about the "sign for unbelievers" in 1 Cor. 14:22 reflects the [non-Pentecostal] scholarly consensus and destroys the Baptist citation of this "sign" as a reason to reject the modern legitimacy of speaking in tongues:

"In 1 Cor. 14:22 Paul calls the gift of tongues a sign for unbelievers and in proof appeals to Isaiah 28:11f.. His point is that speaking in [uninterpreted] tongues not only does not open up access to the mysteries of God for unbelievers but actually bars this. It is a sign to unbelievers because it shows that they are unbelievers and separated from God. It presents itself...as a ground by which to know their own unbelief (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. VII, p.259).."
Because Paul wants unbelievers to get saved, he doesn't want tongues to function as a sign in this sense in church meetings where unbelievers are present. So it is part of his argument that tongues in such a public setting must be interpreted. By the same token it in no way undermines Paul's wish that we all speak in tongues (14:5) and his encouragement for them to do so by adding that he "thanks God that he speaks in tongues [privately] more than all of them (14:18)."

By the way, Salty's point that public prophesying in preferable is irrelevant unless you want to claim that some of the Holy Spirit's gifts are worthless junk.

 

[Salty]

closed while admin team discusses

Looks like points have been made
and hashed over many times