Why You Should Strive to Speak in Tongues

[rockytopva]

Immersion has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.
Does this mean that you do not have an answer?

BTW I started an new thread about immersion.

Point being made that tongues and immersion baptism were avoided about the same time period. I am Pentecostal Holiness. Most the ministers in Virginia Pentecostal Holiness churches go to Liberty University and tongues are not spoken in most the services. If someone speaks in tongues and it is considered out of order they may get a tap on the shoulder and told to stop it.

 

[AustinC]

A related question is why miracles became relatively rare after the apostolic age. Part of the answer to that question is the gradual suppression of the essential experiential aspects Paul's true doctrine of the Holy Spirit. I will demonstrate what I mean in my next planned post.

The bold and red is simply not true, unless you consider that Paul, himself, de-emphasized tongues purely because the immature church at Corinth was selfishly consumed with personal experience that raised their own personal status while lowering the status of God.

Throughout both letters to Corinth we see a church that was consumed by selfishness, looking out for the individual self above the community. A case in point is the abuse of the Lord's Supper where individuals promoted individual status over communal fellowship.

If you are arguing "suppression" you must admit that Corinth was immature and self-centered which required clear correction by Paul for these members to knock it off. They were consumed by self while placing God below their own personal experience. Therefore, I argue the tongues you see in Corinth are not spiritually edifying to the body of Christ and are in fact a self-centered, carnal experience meant to promote self. In short, these experiences came from hell, not heaven.

 

[AustinC]

I sat under Pastor George Gardiner when he was Senior Pastor of Calvary Undenom in Grand Rapids Michigan. He had been raised in the charismatic/holiness church and attended a pentecostal college. He recounted a test that he and his friend did at a chapel service in college. His friend knew the 23rd Psalm in Yiddish so his friend quoted it in the service. A few students got up to interpret what had been said and not one of them got the message even remotely close. It was a moment when Pastor Gardiner changed his view on tongues and realized the pentecostal movement was promoting self-centered carnal activity. Below is a link to his small booklet titled, The Corinthian Catastrophe.

https://www.amazon.com/Corinthian-C...&dplnkId=11fbf269-b572-4749-8fe4-d2262226bb46

 

[robycop3]

The Holy Spirit bestows His gifts as HE chooses, & men cannot change His choices. In a true Godly congregation, He enables every member to do his/her job within that church, from pastor to deacons, to groundskeepers to pew-polishers. Again, the gifts are of HIS choosing, not ours.

 

[Piper]

That still leaves at least 300 years - not to mention Bible believing churches that survived during the first 1200 years

I will say this. Maybe they practiced it and did not know the correct interpretation of what they were doing. I agree with Wayne Grudem's book "The Gift of Prophecy in the NT," which lays out the best interpretation of what it is. I cannot, off the top of my head produce all of his arguments, but I can say, there is a short summary of his book that I can email anyone, about 15 pages, from the book itself, that gives all the major points.

I know that others can reproduce their arguments against it off the top of their heads. I am not that smart.

 

[Deadworm]

In Luke-Acts, Luke never thinks in terms of an initial regenerating work of the Holy Spirit followed by Spirit baptism. This difference from Paul's pneumatology makes Paul's question to the Ephesiah disciples particularly significant: "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you first believed (Acts 19:2)?" Paul is clearly asking them whether they had the experience of initially receiving the Spirit. And what kind of experience does Paul have in mind? Well, when Paul lays hands on them, they finally do receive the Spirit in power by speaking in tongues and prophesying (19:6). Their intial experience is significant for 2 reasons: (1) In ancient rabbinic Judaism the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of prophecy, and so, ecstatic speech validates the claim to have received the Spirit. (2) In 3 of the 4 descriptions of initial reception of the Spirit, people evidence this by speaking in tongues and in the 4th case some such experience of ecstatic speech seems implied by Simon the Magician's offer of money to Peter in exchange for the ability to convey this experience of power.

Paul's contrast between drunkenness and Spirit infilling implies that the experience of the Spirit involves ecstasy:
"Be not drunk with wine..., but be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18)." Indeed, when seekers are filled with the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, the public perceives them as intoxocated with wine (Acts 2:13).

Receiving the Holy Spirit can never be reduced to a matter of faith because it must be an experience of divine power:
""I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the [God-] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God-] talk, but on power (1 Cor. 4:19-20)."
Thus, initial reception of the Spirit upon hearing the Gospel must be an experience of supernatural power:
"My speeclh and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on the power of God (1 Cor. 2:5-6)."
Given the glossolalic excesses at Corinth and the pattern of tongues marking the initial reception of the Spirit in Acts, it is plausible to assume that speaking in tongues was one form taken by this "demonstration of the Spirit and of power" at Corinth.

Like many Baptists, Galatian legalism had the effect of reducing their initial experience of power to a matter of cerebral faith:
"Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you EXPERIENCE so much for nothing (Gal. 3:3-4)?"
The initial Galatian experience of the Spirit included miracles like the gifts of the Spirit:
"Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit AND WORK MIRACLES AMONG YOU by your doing the works of the Law or by your believing what you heard (3:5)?"

 

[37818]

When the perfect comes is defined in the context, see v. 12,
Seeing face to face as in 1 John 3:2, i.e., seeing Jesus.
Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

The Apostle Paul taught he would be face to face when he would die, 2 Corinthians 5:8, ". . . We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. . . ." 1 Corinthians 13:12, ". . . For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. . . ." Notice he changes the "we" to himself. By time the Revelation was written the Apostle Paul had passed away. Revelation 22:18, ". . . For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, . . ." See Revelation 19:10 and Luke 24:44, noting it is called, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ."

 

[rockytopva]

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. - 1 Corinthians 14:39

 

[AustinC]

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. - 1 Corinthians 14:39

Notice the selfishness of the Corinthians, which Paul points out. Sadly that selfishness is still prevalent today.

*1 Corinthians 14:1-4*

Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for their selfishness.

*1 Corinthians 14:6-12*

Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

 

[rockytopva]

Notice the selfishness of the Corinthians, which Paul points out. Sadly that selfishness is still prevalent today.

*1 Corinthians 14:1-4*

Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for their selfishness.

*1 Corinthians 14:6-12*

Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

It is indeed a pleasant thing to see the fruits of the Spirit in the Christian life. I believe there are three important experiences for the Christian to pursue

1. Salvation - If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9
2. Sanctification - My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you. - Galatians 4:19
3. Holy Spirit Infilling - God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will. - Hebrews 2:4

And to paraphrase -

1. Salvation - Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Sanctification - Seeing the Christ come alive within the believer
3. Holy Spirit Infilling - I believe God has given each believer gifts according to his own will. Some receive the gift of the Holy Ghost with speaking of other tongues.

Sanctification - I believe the fruits of the Spirit come out of the sanctified soul and it is a very pleasant thing to behold.

 

[AustinC]

Notice the selfishness of the Corinthians, which Paul points out. Sadly that selfishness is still prevalent today.

*1 Corinthians 14:1-4*

Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for their selfishness.

*1 Corinthians 14:6-12*

Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

It is indeed a pleasant thing to see the fruits of the Spirit in the Christian life. I believe there are three important experiences for the Christian to pursue

1. Salvation - If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. - Romans 10:9
2. Sanctification - My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you. - Galatians 4:19
3. Holy Spirit Infilling - God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will. - Hebrews 2:4

And to paraphrase -

1. Salvation - Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Sanctification - Seeing the Christ come alive within the believer
3. Holy Spirit Infilling - I believe God has given each believer gifts according to his own will. Some receive the gift of the Holy Ghost with speaking of other tongues.

Sanctification - I believe the fruits of the Spirit come out of the sanctified soul and it is a very pleasant thing to behold.

Rocky, you completely avoided the topic. If you are going to quote me, please address what I wrote. You are completely off-topic.

 

[Deadworm]

Notice the selfishness of the Corinthians, which Paul points out. Sadly that selfishness is still prevalent today.

Duh. notice how Austin's comment Bap-disses Paul for saying, "I want you all to speak in tongues" and "I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you." In other words, in Paul's view the Corinthians actually don't speak in tongues often enough! He simply wants them to cool their private prayer language in public settings attended by outsiders.

 

[AustinC]

Duh. notice how Austin's comment Bap-disses Paul for saying, "I want you all to speak in tongues" and "I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you." In other words, in Paul's view the Corinthians actually don't speak in tongues often enough! He simply wants them to cool their private prayer language in public settings attended by outsiders.

Nope
Paul has spent an entire letter correcting a very self-centered, pleasure seeking church that refuses to correct sin. Paul openly rebukes the church at Corinth for their selfish speaking in tongues that is contrary to God's gift of tongues, which is always provided as a sign to the unsaved. Look at every instance in Acts and we see that the constant is tongues being given to show the power of God over pagan idolatry.

 

[Marooncat79]

This thread will focus on the purpose and value of speaking in tongues, both from a biblical perspective and my personal experiential perspective. But first the thread will lay out the reasons why we should strive to receive the gift of speaking in tongues. Critics of tongues have no sensible answer to these 5 points:

(1) Paul's command to "pray in the Spirit" is fulfilled by striving to speak in tongues. 3 points establish this teaching:
(a) Paul commands us to "pray in the Spirit" (Eph 6:18) and speaking in tongues is the only form of praying in the Spirit identified in the Bible (1 Cor 14:15). That is not to say that believers can't pray in the Spirit in their own language. (b) Paul commands us to "strive for spiritual gifts (14:1)," clarifying this command with his desire for all of us to speak in tongues (14:5). (c) Paul repeatedly commands us to imitate his spirituality (1 Cor 4:16; 11:1; Phil 3:17) and makes it clear that such imitation includes a demonstration of the Spirit and of power (1 Cor. 4:29-20; cp. 2:4-5).

(2) Point (1) is not refuted by Paul's preference that we all prophesy (14:5). This counter-point is refuted by 2 facts: (a) Those who disregard tongues for this reason blaspheme the Holy Spirit by implying that some of His gifts are irrelevant and not needed. If speaking in tongues were not important, why does Paul celebrate the fact that he speaks in tongues more than everyone (14:18)?
(b) If prophecy is the greatest spiritual gift, speaking in tongues is just as great if it is interpreted (14:5). In that sense, both gifts are equally "great" and should therefore both be diligently sought. (c) What critics fail to realize is this: in 1 Cor 14 Paul is addressing the specific situation in which believers are speaking in uninterpreted tongues in public worship services at which outsiders are present who are not ready for such unintelligible Spirit manifestations. But Paul encourages speaking in tongues in private prayer sessions (1 Cor. 14:28; cp. 14:4) and in other public meetings (e. g. Acts 19:1-6).

(3) Point (1) is not refuted by the false claim based on 12:29-30) that the gift of speaking in tongues is not divinely intended for everyone.
(a) Paul insists that we "can all prophesy one by one (14:31)." Yet the gift of prophesy is included in Paul's list that critics invoke to claim that these gifts are not divinely intended for everyone. So what Paul is instead teaching is this: Look around you: not everyone actually exercises their prophetic potential, but I want all believers to do so. (b) So when Paul encourages us all to speak in tongues, he clearly means that this gift if available to all believers.
(4) In 3 of the 4 times people receive the Holy Spirit in Acts, they demonstrate this by speaking in tongues (2:1-18; 10:44-47; 19:1-6). In the 4th case, tongues are not mentioned, but the experience of receiving the Spirit is so dramatic that Simon the Magician offers money to learn the secret of channeling such power (8:19-20). So it is reasonable to believe that these Samaritan converts also spoke in tongues when they received their Spirit baptism. This well established pattern does not mean that Spirit baptism requires speaking in tongues (see 1 Cor 12:13); but it is further evidence that the gift of tongues should be diligently sought (1 Cor 12:31: 14:1).

(5) The tongues in contemporary languages in Acts 2 is NOT normative for later manifestations of this gift. That eruption is identified as prophecy (2:17-18 citing Joel 2:28), but speaking in tongues is subsequently distinguished from prophecy (19:5-6; 1 Cor 12 and 14). The tongues in Acts 10:44-47 and 19:1-6 are neither understood nor interpreted. In Greco-Roman parallels speaking in tongues (Greek: "glossai") is understood as ecstatic gibberish that needs a prophet for interpretation. Paul prefers to view this non-human gibberish as angelic language (1 Cor 13:1) and labels tongues speakers as "zealots of spirits (14:12)" a phrase that means "zealots of angels (see Heb 1:7)." Jews in Paul's day embraced the possibility of interpreting angelic languages (e. g. Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai and Testament of Job).

Where in the Bible are we told to strive to speak in tongues?

 

[Marooncat79]

Hmmmm.... Why is it, Christians did not have total immersion baptisms for over 1500 years?

Not true

the Didache says otherwise

 

[rockytopva]

Not true

the Didache says otherwise

I am a member of the Pentecostal Holiness Church and our oldest college is at…

Holmes Bible College
4901 Old Buncombe Road
Greenville, SC 29617

“Holmes is the oldest known Pentecostal college. It has a rich history of producing significant church leaders, both clergy and lay. Missionaries trained at the college have gone around the world. It has been said that the sun never sets on a Holmes graduate.” - ABOUT | Holmes Bible College

 

[Marooncat79]

I am a member of the Pentecostal Holiness Church and our oldest college is at…

Holmes Bible College
4901 Old Buncombe Road
Greenville, SC 29617

“Holmes is the oldest known Pentecostal college. It has a rich history of producing significant church leaders, both clergy and lay. Missionaries trained at the college have gone around the world. It has been said that the sun never sets on a Holmes graduate.” - ABOUT | Holmes Bible College

I drive past Holmes 2-3 times per week

this has nothing to do with immersion baptism, and certainly not a mandate to strive to speak in tongues

 

[rockytopva]

I drive past Holmes 2-3 times per week

this has nothing to do with immersion baptism, and certainly not a mandate to strive to speak in tongues

I am not promoting it either and think it would be a bad thing if there is not a Holmes Bible College type sanctification as a foundation before the experience.

 

[Deadworm]

AustinC: "Nope Paul has spent an entire letter correcting a very self-centered, pleasure seeking church that refuses to correct sin. Paul openly rebukes the church at Corinth for their selfish speaking in tongues that is contrary to God's gift of tongues, which is always provided as a sign to the unsaved."

Nope! Tongues is a sign to the unsaved only if the tongues are interpreted. The uninterpreted tongues spoken in private prayer languages are not heard by the unsaved. Paul wants the Corinthians to speak in tongues even more than they are doing: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you...I want you all to speak in tongues," But Paul wants all this tongues speaking to be confined to their private prayer time, not in church with outsiders present. It amazes me that you Baptists keep overlooking this point.

AustinC: "Look at every instance in Acts and we see that the constant is tongues being given to show the power of God over pagan idolatry"

Nope! Acts never links idolatry to the outbursts of speaking in tongues. Actually read the texts:
First, the outpouring of tongues in Acts 2 falls on "Israelites (2:29) ," i.e. Jews and proselytes from all over the Mediterranean region (2:5, 10)--no idolaters-- who have traveled to Jersualem to participate in the Jewish Feast of Pentecost.
Second, Cornelius is a "god-fearer (Acts 10:22), " i. e. a Gentile who has converted to Judaism, but has not been circumcised. In other words, Cornelius is no idolater; so his case refutes your claim.
Third, the Ephesian "disciples" have received the baptism of John the Baptist and this suggests that they are Jewish, especially since the context is Paul's teaching in the local "synagogue (19:8)." No idolaters there!

 

[AustinC]

AustinC: "Nope Paul has spent an entire letter correcting a very self-centered, pleasure seeking church that refuses to correct sin. Paul openly rebukes the church at Corinth for their selfish speaking in tongues that is contrary to God's gift of tongues, which is always provided as a sign to the unsaved."

Nope! Tongues is a sign to the unsaved only if the tongues are interpreted. The uninterpreted tongues spoken in private prayer languages are not heard by the unsaved. Paul wants the Corinthians to speak in tongues even more than they are doing: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you...I want you all to speak in tongues," But Paul wants all this tongues speaking to be confined to their private prayer time, not in church with outsiders present. It amazes me that you Baptists keep overlooking this point.

AustinC: "Look at every instance in Acts and we see that the constant is tongues being given to show the power of God over pagan idolatry"

Nope! Acts never links idolatry to the outbursts of speaking in tongues. Actually read the texts:
First, the outpouring of tongues in Acts 2 falls on "Israelites (2:29) ," i.e. Jews and proselytes from all over the Mediterranean region (2:5, 10)--no idolaters-- who have traveled to Jersualem to participate in the Jewish Feast of Pentecost.
Second, Cornelius is a "god-fearer (Acts 10:22), " i. e. a Gentile who has converted to Judaism, but has not been circumcised. In other words, Cornelius is no idolater; so his case refutes your claim.
Third, the Ephesian "disciples" have received the baptism of John the Baptist and this suggests that they are Jewish, especially since the context is Paul's teaching in the local "synagogue (19:8)." No idolaters there!

Nope, nope, and nope.

Truth: Paul wanted the Corinthians to speak in tongues for the edification of all, not for selfish pride, which was the problem at Corinth. The believers were very prideful.

Truth: Tongues is always brought up as a sign to the pagans. There are four times in the book of Acts where tongues are recorded. They are all different means by which they are manifest, but they are always a demonstration to pagans that God is greater than their paganism. They are never for personal use, just as none of the gifts God gives are for personal use. All gifts are given for the edification of others.

Dead, you are missing the purpose of tongues and thus you cheapen their purpose and function.