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Featured Why You Should Strive to Speak in Tongues

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Deadworm, Sep 6, 2022.

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  1. Deadworm

    Deadworm Member

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    This thread will focus on the purpose and value of speaking in tongues, both from a biblical perspective and my personal experiential perspective. But first the thread will lay out the reasons why we should strive to receive the gift of speaking in tongues. Critics of tongues have no sensible answer to these 5 points:

    (1) Paul's command to "pray in the Spirit" is fulfilled by striving to speak in tongues. 3 points establish this teaching:
    (a) Paul commands us to "pray in the Spirit" (Eph 6:18) and speaking in tongues is the only form of praying in the Spirit identified in the Bible (1 Cor 14:15). That is not to say that believers can't pray in the Spirit in their own language. (b) Paul commands us to "strive for spiritual gifts (14:1)," clarifying this command with his desire for all of us to speak in tongues (14:5). (c) Paul repeatedly commands us to imitate his spirituality (1 Cor 4:16; 11:1; Phil 3:17) and makes it clear that such imitation includes a demonstration of the Spirit and of power (1 Cor. 4:29-20; cp. 2:4-5).

    (2) Point (1) is not refuted by Paul's preference that we all prophesy (14:5). This counter-point is refuted by 2 facts: (a) Those who disregard tongues for this reason blaspheme the Holy Spirit by implying that some of His gifts are irrelevant and not needed. If speaking in tongues were not important, why does Paul celebrate the fact that he speaks in tongues more than everyone (14:18)?
    (b) If prophecy is the greatest spiritual gift, speaking in tongues is just as great if it is interpreted (14:5). In that sense, both gifts are equally "great" and should therefore both be diligently sought. (c) What critics fail to realize is this: in 1 Cor 14 Paul is addressing the specific situation in which believers are speaking in uninterpreted tongues in public worship services at which outsiders are present who are not ready for such unintelligible Spirit manifestations. But Paul encourages speaking in tongues in private prayer sessions (1 Cor. 14:28; cp. 14:4) and in other public meetings (e. g. Acts 19:1-6).

    (3) Point (1) is not refuted by the false claim based on 12:29-30) that the gift of speaking in tongues is not divinely intended for everyone.
    (a) Paul insists that we "can all prophesy one by one (14:31)." Yet the gift of prophesy is included in Paul's list that critics invoke to claim that these gifts are not divinely intended for everyone. So what Paul is instead teaching is this: Look around you: not everyone actually exercises their prophetic potential, but I want all believers to do so. (b) So when Paul encourages us all to speak in tongues, he clearly means that this gift if available to all believers.
    (4) In 3 of the 4 times people receive the Holy Spirit in Acts, they demonstrate this by speaking in tongues (2:1-18; 10:44-47; 19:1-6). In the 4th case, tongues are not mentioned, but the experience of receiving the Spirit is so dramatic that Simon the Magician offers money to learn the secret of channeling such power (8:19-20). So it is reasonable to believe that these Samaritan converts also spoke in tongues when they received their Spirit baptism. This well established pattern does not mean that Spirit baptism requires speaking in tongues (see 1 Cor 12:13); but it is further evidence that the gift of tongues should be diligently sought (1 Cor 12:31: 14:1).

    (5) The tongues in contemporary languages in Acts 2 is NOT normative for later manifestations of this gift. That eruption is identified as prophecy (2:17-18 citing Joel 2:28), but speaking in tongues is subsequently distinguished from prophecy (19:5-6; 1 Cor 12 and 14). The tongues in Acts 10:44-47 and 19:1-6 are neither understood nor interpreted. In Greco-Roman parallels speaking in tongues (Greek: "glossai") is understood as ecstatic gibberish that needs a prophet for interpretation. Paul prefers to view this non-human gibberish as angelic language (1 Cor 13:1) and labels tongues speakers as "zealots of spirits (14:12)" a phrase that means "zealots of angels (see Heb 1:7)." Jews in Paul's day embraced the possibility of interpreting angelic languages (e. g. Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai and Testament of Job).
     
  2. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue
    I Cor 4:19

    and I have always said those 5 words would be "Ye must be born again"

    If the Lord tells me to speak in tongues, I will
    He aint, so I aint

    and whats the purpose of speaking in tongues : Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
    I Cor 14:22
    (bold - my emphasis)

    and one other thing:

    If those in a church are to speak in tounges - then there are rules:

    1) ...let it be by two, or at the most by three,

    2) ...and that by course; and let one interpret.

    3) ... no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church;
    1Co 14 27-:28

    I have visited many Pentecostal churches over the years.
    I have NEVER seen the rules followed

    Many years ago, when I was at Ft Lee-, a young E-5 was assigned to our unit.
    He was a Pentecostal - so we got talking about tongues. I asked him about the rules.
    He said he was not aware of them!
     
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  3. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    As far as tongues William Seymour says that if people weren’t expressing the I Corinthians 13 kind of love, then, “I care not how many tongues you may have, you have not the baptism with the Holy Spirit.” William Seymour also warned that, “Whenever the doctrine of the baptism in the Holy Ghost will only be known as the evidence of speaking in tongues, that work will be an open door for witches and spiritualist and free loveism. That work will suffer because all kinds of spirits can come in.” - In support of Azusa Street Doctrine
     
  4. Deadworm

    Deadworm Member

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    Salty: "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue"

    You ignore the context: Paul is talking about speaking in uninterpreted tongues in a church service where outsiders are present. Otherwise, tongues are a treasured gift of the Spirit and your reply disrespects what the Holy Spirit has to offer.

    Salty: "and I have always said those 5 words would be "Ye must be born again"

    That ;language is found in John and 1 Peter, but not in Paul.

    Salty: "If the Lord tells me to speak in tongues, I will
    He aint, so I aint"

    You don't realize that Paul instructs you to speak in tongues in 1 Cor. 14:5: "I want you all to speak in tongues." This instruction is in no way underminded by Paul's preference tor prophecy. And you overlook Paul's teaching that you must earnestly strive for spiritual gifts, including tongues and prophecy. To presume, as you seem to do, that you don't need to seek God's face to receive His blessing disrespects the Spirit.

    Salty: "and whats the purpose of speaking in tongues "

    "Those who speak in tongues build up (= edify) themselves (1 Cor. 14:4)." I will expand on this edification and other purposes of tongues in a future post.

    Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
    I Cor 14:22

    You confuse the sign significance of tongues with their spiritual power and value.
    "These SIGNS shall follow THOSE WHO BELIEVE...they shall speak with new tongues (Mark 16:17).
    In fact, when I was Spirit baptized at the altar at age 16,after the service, an unbelieving Lutheran watched me speaking in tongues and told me he didn't believe in that. I just touched him gently on the forehead and he just exploded in other tongues. So my glossolalia was a sign for him that changed his life.
    and one other thing:

    Salty: "I have visited many Pentecostal churches over the years.
    I have NEVER seen the rules followed"

    You just need to get out more. I grew up in Pentecostal church and these rules were strictly enforced. You judge other denominations by their worst exemplars. Would you like me to dismiss all Baptists on the basis of the odious excesses of the notorious Westside Baptist Church? I think not. Besides, the thread is focusing on God's Word, not on your excuses to ignore God's Word based on your biased personal experience/

    What is truly sad is this: if you experienced what I experienced in my Spirit baptism at age 16, it would be BY FAR the highlight of your life. Decades later, I still draw spiritual nourishment from the memory of that awesome day, without which I doubt I would still be a Christian (being naturally skeptical). I will describe that experience in detail in a future post.
     
  5. Deadworm

    Deadworm Member

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    The church of my youth hosted both a Sunday morning and a Sunday evening evangelistic service. Hungry for God, yet plagued by doubts, I (about age 18) decided to stay after the morning service and fast and pray in the church steeple all day before the evening service. I almost quit after 45 minutes on my knees. My knees were sore and my prayer seemed labored and too repetitive, as I was running out of petitions and new ways to praise and thank God. If I had quit, I might have become an agnostic. All I had left was an intense hunger for more of God. Then I was suddenly enveloped by the sweetness of the Spirit's presence and the prayers just flowed effortlessly from my mouth, directed by the Spirit for hours. I had just discovered the price I must pray to learn to pray in the Spirit. That evening, the altar was lined with an unusually high number of seekers coming forward for salvation. I went through the same process some time later with the same awesome results.

    Praying in the Spirit is a key to effective spiritual warfare (Eph. 6:11-18) and learning to pray in the Spirit in your own language is an ideal stepping stone to authentically speaking in tongues. How does one's private prayer language build oneself up (so 1 Cor. 14:4)? The Spirit is directing your prayer and empowering its impact on both you and those for whom you are praying. Your awareness that the Spirit is directin the prayer fills you with faith, which in turn makes such praying far more effective.
     
  6. Deadworm

    Deadworm Member

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    Two other factors can ignite the transition from praying in the Spirit to praying in tongues:
    (2) The Pentecostal expression "lost in praise" designates a particular type of praying in the Spirit that is often a launching pad for speaking in tongues. Being lost in praise is a type of intense longing for God in which the eruption of joy triggers spontaneous and uncontrolled praise in one's own language. It is the Lord who guides the praise: "O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise (Psalm 51:15)." This type of praise is superior because it reflects and derives from "the inner being" and "my secret heart" with which I am usually out of touch (51:6). Much of what we pass off as praise is forced and mechanical; so the Spirit's intervention is needed to create a "willing spirit" (51:12)." If our worship is too much of a head trip rather than a heart eruption, we may lose the Holy Spirit as an active force in our lives: "Do not cast me away from your presence and don't take your Holy Spirit from me (51:11)."

    (3) To learn to pray in the Spirit, one should first learn how to "walk in the Spirit." Walking in the Spirit is often misunderstood as mere conscious obedience to God's Word, when in fact it is more mystical than that--the believer must master the art of being "led by the Spirit (Galatians 5:25)." Unless the believer has mastered this art, they will not experience all "the fruit of the Spirit (5:22-23)," which are Spirit-imparted fruit and not the fruit of mechanical human striving.
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Note that God gives gifts to his children as the Holy Spirit chooses. We receive the gift that God wills for us and with whichever gift we receive we recall God's plans for us, not our desires for any particular gift.

    *Jeremiah 29:11-13*
    For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

    *Micah 6:6-8*
    “With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

    What we are called to is 3 fold.
    1) Do justice
    2) Love Kindness
    3) Walk humbly with our God

    Humility means we bow to the choice of God to give the gifts He wills. Pride desires one gift over another gift. I will not demand that my King should give me any gift when He has already graciously gifted me salvation and faith.

    I have no need to ever speak in tongues when my God speaks to me through His word. That is enough for me.
     
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  8. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    I have no issue with the idea that we are to strive for Spiritual gifts. But Paul did emphasize clearly, and not by implication, that we are all to seek to prophesy.
    Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
     
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The giving of that speaking gift ended with the giving of the Revelation 22:18.
     
  10. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    I disagree. 1 Cor 13:8-10 clearly says that it will end when Jesus returns.
     
    #10 Piper, Sep 8, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2022
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Scripture says to be eager to prophesy but don't forbid speaking in tongues. Tongues is a sign for the unbeliever (one or two speak with interpreters (in a congregational setting). Paul does speak of praying in tongues, but only in private. Nowhere are we urged to seek out the gift.
     
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  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It says no such thing. ". . . whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. . . ."
    See James 1:17.
     
  13. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    When the perfect comes is defined in the context, see v. 12,
    Seeing face to face as in 1 John 3:2, i.e., seeing Jesus.
    Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
     
  14. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Himm Why is it, Christians did not have the gift for over 1500 years?
     
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  15. Piper

    Piper Active Member
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    Maybe because the Roman Catholic church, the main church during most of those years, did not practice it? I am just guessing. I personally think that some people did, but because the RCC controlled most things religion related, we do not hear about it.
     
  16. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    That still leaves at least 300 years - not to mention Bible believing churches that survived during the first 1200 years
     
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  17. Campion

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    If one looks up the etymological origin of “tongue”, you will see the Latin root lingua, from which we get the word language. Lingua is Latin for both tongue and language.

    Ergo, speaking in tongues = speaking in languages

    This is the clear meaning described in the Scriptures and prophesied by our Blessed Lord. For this gift allowed the Apostles and disciples to speak in languages which they did not know and thus spread the faith to foreign lands.

    "He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues..." (Mark 16:15-17)


    A tongue was therefore a real, actual language someone could speak who had no training in it. It would be like me going over to Japan and teaching everyone in fluent Japanese, even though I have never had a day of training in it in my life. The "tongues" you speak about are simply gibberish. They are not actual languages spoken by specific people. Thus uttering these "tongues" is an obvious indication the person is a charlatan and just speaking gibberish.
     
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  18. Deadworm

    Deadworm Member

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    Why is it that Baptists suppress study of spiritual experiences like speaking in tongues throughout history? Could it be a deliberate blind spot to experiential truths that don't fit their preconceived Baptist agenda? For examples of speaking tongues throughout history see:

    https://www.apostolic.edu/speaking-in-tongues-throughout-history/\

    A related question is why miracles became relatively rare after the apostolic age. Part of the answer to that question is the gradual suppression of the essential experiential aspects Paul's true doctrine of the Holy Spirit. I will demonstrate what I mean in my next planned post.
     
  19. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    Hmmmm.... Why is it, Christians did not have total immersion baptisms for over 1500 years?
     
  20. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Immersion has nothing to do with speaking in tongues.
    Does this mean that you do not have an answer?

    BTW I started an new thread about immersion.
     
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