Why...

So maybe I should tell you you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, eh?

"Documented mirepresentations?" Documented your misinterpretations of scripture is more like it.

Energizer Bunny with "power" from on high! :laugh:

skypair

 

David (or anyone for that matter)

OK, I wasn't so concerned about whether you believe Calvin or not but whether you see the analogy between Greek Zeus (for instance) and "Calvin's" God. The salient issues of correspondence to me are:

1) humans seemed to be the "playthings" of the gods (Calvin's God apparently controls everything and "elects" or condemns for His own "pleasure" and "glory"),

2) humans couldn't know whether they were going to "the River Styx" or to "Alysium Fields" when they die (as seems to be the case for the Calvin's "elect"),

3) the Greek gods do all for their own glory (same with Calvin's God according to Calvinists),

4) the "demi-gods" were born of the gods with no choice in the matter (same for the "elect"),

5) and from the human perspective, "all was fate" -- no human "input" into the gods' plans (same with Calvin's God) or how they work out.

BTW, did you learn anything about "spiritual death" or what the "natural man" is able to understand or about the "mustard seed" parable from my previous post?

skypair

 

Please, pinoy -- don't take this thread where it wasn't headed. I established/presumed that ALL who were in this discussion are believers, saved. I started the thread to begin to establish "unity of the knowledge and faith of the Son of God" per Eph 4:13. This is where God wants us to grow to as a church.

The first topic that came up was (with Larry I believe) "do we as a saved people defined our God properly." As the discussion proceeded, it became more and more clear to me that the God of Calvinism resembled the Greek notion of their gods. Can we discuss that and compare that to scripture?

The God of the Bible to me is greater than that. Doesn't just the sound of what you just said about God seem a little selfish of Him and and little shallow of us?

skypair

 

OK, you are avoiding the issue. So they are not "playthings" -- but if they have no say in what happens on earth, they are little more than that. When you played in the sandbox as a child, did you have to control all your toys or did they get out of hand and require wrath, chastisement, etc?

By manifestation of works, right? But does that make you sure? And here's what Calvin said:

"Among the temptations with which Satan assaults believers, none is greater or more perilous, than when disquieting them with doubts as to their election, he at the same time stimulates them with a depraved desire of inquiring after it out of the proper way ... I mean when puny man endeavors to penetrate into the hidden recesses of the divine wisdom ... in order that he may understand what final determination God has made with regard to him."

Right there Calvin says it is foolish (and the "wrong way") for man to try to know whether he is saved or not.

Plenty have told me otherwise, David, though many also tell me that they chose Him before they knew about Calvinism.

Most Calvinists tell me that they were "passive" in the process of salvation -- that they do not attribute their belief for their salvation but the reverse and that salvation is "monergistic" -- "foisted" on them (if you will excuse the bluntness of what goes for "irresistible grace") and without condition on their part. See, to me belief would be a condition for receiving salvation and regeneration. If something is "foisted" on you, it would be like your natural birth -- as if you were born of the gods in the Greek "religion."

I hope you realize that I am responding, not to your testimony but to that of a majority of Calvinists i read here and elsewhere.

Yes, but dead in which of facet of their being? Body - No. Spirit - They weren't brain dead yet, were they? They could still hear the gospel and be saved or by what faculty within their personality do you think that God "latched onto" them and they were saved?

Right -- he called the "perfect" in fact! They were saved and so now they could understand more than just the gospel by which they had been converted from their "natural" state.

Believe me, they all touch on who God is and how we should perceive Him. It is a compicated issue but I will try to refrain getting sidetracked unnecessarily in the future,

Regards back at you, :jesus:
skypair

 

OK, let's see

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

PD OK, sin entered the world by Adam and death entered by his sin -- so PHYSICAL DEATH passed to all men, NOT sin. All have sinned but remember, "all" means only the "elect." :laugh: "for that all have sinned" -- what does that tell you, Larry? 1) All have actually sinned themselves -- not in Adam.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

See, right there -- no law, no imputed sin! Yes, all eventually sinned but none was imputed to them. They did it themselves is what I read, don't you?

]14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

See there -- they all sinned themselves. Adam's was only a "prefiguring" of the fact that all would sin.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead,...

PD Many died physically on account of Adam is what I see. You?

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

SD All have sinned on account of Adam unto condemnation. The free gift is to take away many offenses by one Sacrifice. Does this say any more than that, Larry?

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

PD This is telling us that physical death reigned on account of Adam. Then it tells us that we can reign in our physical life through Christ. Are you seeing anything else?

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

SD This goes back to the "all have sinned" idea and the all are made righteous idea. Paul is doing parallel contrasts -- one regarding physical death and one regarding sin.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This is also the second track (SD) regarding sin and righteousness.

What I see is Paul speaking about physical death (PD) consequences of Adam and spiritual death (SD) consequences (and, of course, the physical life and spiritual life consequences of believing!). Are you with me? Where do you disagree? I'm taking the time to do this hoping that we can agree on something, OK?

skypair

 

Not as you seemed to describe it in talking about your MIL.

You got this thing about "permissive will" whereby God lets people and Satan do what they want but you never say they are sovereign over their own acts. What is that all about?? 'Cause I freely admit that God controls the outcomes and the ultimate end but He's NOT doin' the play-by-play, blow-by-blow decisions and choices, Larry. You're basically in a "mind trap" where you can't admit human sovereignty even when you see it! Did God pick your socks out for you this morning??

I don't see it, Larry. I see that God tries to intervene in everyone's life to save them but He can't because they don't ask. That's how my miracles work too.

Adrian Rogers had a good sermon on binding Satan and loosing God's will through prayer. Sometimes something is God's will if we will just acknowledge Him in it and have faith. What was the thing Jesus used to say -- "thy faith has healed thee?" We can be sure that if something is in His will, we can pray confidently for it and God will grant it, 1John 5:14-15. Salvation is His will for us and if we pray for it according to that will ("in Christ"), we will receive it.

And it is true that God doesn't always do as we ask

Ultimately, "that's a truism," as we used to say in school. :laugh:

No, I deny that everything is His will, Larry. Else He would be, to me, a Greek god where all I could hope for is for "the fates to be kind to me."

Well, I know He foreknew it all and I don't like to be morbid or judgmental but was there anything that could have been done in either situation to avert the outcome that happened? I mean, in my heart case, God showed me that smoking was part of the blame and that, young as I was (28), exercise would help so I started jogging before it was in fashion. That is the kind of "miracles" I have experienced -- miracles of revelation, of changing myself and letting God do what He does best (answer).

Oh, I got a topper for that. One Mother's Day (when our church awarded the oldest mother, youngest mother, etc.), the youngest was a black, unwed teen and the preacher was at first flabbergasted and then said, "Why you're too young to be a mother." I was so embarrassed for that girl. I mean, the fact that she stood up showed that she didn't expect condemnation or that she had done anything wrong, right? I sure hope that girl got saved. raying:

I see. Or ignorance. And I surmise my MIL wasn't as mature of a Christian as she might have been when she was older. I talked to her about it and agreed that that "comfort" is well-intended but sees only God's foreordination of all events and NOT what God would have like to see happen.

Can we discuss that? Cause I don't think I misread it.

Exactly! But healing is often by INTERACTION -- praying and God "changing His mind," His natural and judicial laws.

And well you shouldn't. But Larry -- look at the issues I gave to David. Are we really at the mercy of fate a Greek god? Or do we get to interact with the God of heaven? Are we so many toys like we used to play with that -- inanimate objects incapable of "moving through the sand" without God manipulating us? Is God only about His own glory and pleasure? who gets glory and pleasure out of damnation as well as our salvation? Put some Sonlight in between them for me, will you?

skypair

 

Well, I take offense at your first comment because I usually use the term "Calvinist," not "Calvin. But secondly, "impugning the doctrines," I am asking for analysis. I am asking all to find common ground regarding (since Larry brought it up) who God is -- first precept of salvation. If you don't like my comparison, pls show me the fallacy in it.

Oh, stop! Either our view of God divides us or it doesn't. I say it does because Calvin somehow got a "Greek model." Your response should be whether my evaluation holds up to theological, scriptural analysis.

The BIBLE description. Check it out.

The "God of Calvinism" says that I do see a difference from the God I know. False God? No, incomplete. You got saved by Him but you didn't, at that point, need to know everything about Him. Like Paul said, the people of God (especially the Galations) could be led away from the true God by those who "crept in unawares."

Yes, but do we all know who He is?

But you have every right to see if someone has led the "flock" astray, do you not?

[/quote] See, these are true regarding idols. But read John 17:20 sometime. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: Does that sound to you like God is only seeking His own glory??

skypair

 

Well, that oughta give you the "high ground" even if you don't cite scripture! :laugh: Are you casting aspersions on the source of my theology??

You allow Pharoah to either agree with You or force him to release your people. Either way, your "people" are let loose. But you seem to see man as having with no options, don't you? If man decides anything, he is controlling God. Does the Bible really tell you that??

Maintain it as Bible truth. Did you "sovereignly" decide which socks to wear this morning? If not, what was your "Guidance?" your "Imperative?"

Did Pharoah "stay God's hand?" Didn't he let God's people go? Did Pharoah try to resist, Larry? Was that by God's wovereignty or by his own??

Tells me He foreknew everything and accomodated His plan to accept a) Israel accepting Messiah or b) Israel not accepting Messiah. But you can't see it both ways, can you?

Well, depending how you define "grace and mercy." On first blush, it appeared your "grace and mercy" was just a "warm fuzzy." At best, it was a nebulous concept to me -- no temporal results.

I'll have to get back with you tomorrow. Be good.

skypair