Why...

This makes no sense to me. I do not know what a "permissive will" is as you use it here. I am aware of two kidns of God's will: His revealed will and his decreed will. If you would like to discuss one of those, we could. If you want to tell me what you mean by "permissive will," we might be able to discuss that.

It is so farfetched, I don't even know what it means. How could I choose the wrong socks? they are socks. It's not a gun I am going to kill someone with. Does God will the outcome of my decision about socks? Sure. How else would he control all things. (Remember your definition of all before you say that "all things" doesn't really mean all things including sock choices.)

That's how the Bible puts it. The way I see it is irrelevant. I am not the authority. Remember, in Exod 4:21 before Moses even went to Pharaoh God said he would harden his heart. That's not a response from God to what Pharaoh did or would do.

Of course not becuase you have not sat down and read that section thoughtfully without your preconceived notions. Again, read the passage (Isa 40-48 or so) and see that God is not accommodating anything. He is controlling it. You want to take an omnipotent God (who can do everything) and make him an omnicopetent God (who can adjust to everything). The Bible does not present that kind of God.

 

I'd like to know why some want to make it out as if God uses His options that He is some how changing Himself. A decision doesn't change a person but changes the persons plans. Simply some refuse to allow God any options. To allow God His own idenity, His own power. Keeping Him bottled up in what they think He will do. When they have no idea what God is really capable of. If all things are possible with God as scripture clearly states then how is it some would attempt to remove the options of His possibilities?

 

So why don't you jump right in and drop your meat in the pot ?

You see, that is my problem with some people. If this is a discussion board, then discuss the idea, the doctrine, or the statement, instead of lamenting how the other side is in such error so much so that others get the impression that not only is one side in error, but also heretic.

You have a contribution to make ?

Contribute.


Phrases like "When they have no idea what God is really capable of" and "they have no idea ......" do not contribute to any discussion. It makes one appear stupid and the other smart.

You smart ?

Jump right in, and show us how stupid we are.

Or you can be a Christian and discuss Scripture in a better way.

Your call.

 

Oh, now I get it.

You have this "gift" which you think God has given you, and your gift is far superior than that of a theologian and those whose theologies happen to agree and coincide with that theologian.

And since you have this God-given gift, you have made it your life's purpose to convince them how wrong they are and how much their theology belittles God, and under your aegis all should unite and worship God and follow Him the way you do, and anyone who happens to have a different leaning is sinning and bent on disunity.

I sincerely pray you will not one day wake up and be convinced you are Jesus Christ yourself.

Now, here's a slice of my meat which I am throwing in to this pot you started.

Theology is earth bound. There is only one true theology, and that is God's theology, and unfortunately, none of us are God, and there is no way we can learn what the true doctrines are until we are all standing in the presence of the Teacher Himself.

Until then, you will claim yours is the right doctrine, another will say his is the right one, and another one will rise up and say he has the right doctrine.

As far as I am concerned, I will worship, and fellowship with those who hold to the same doctrines, principles, and practices as I do here on this earth, or at least those who are close to those doctrines, principles, and practices.

You can do the same.

It is not my job to convince you you are wrong. All I can do is to state why I think what I hold to is correct, and the same with you, Pastor Larry, and all who participate in discussions in this board.

None of us were given the mandate to unite Christians.


All of us werel given the mandate to preach the gospel.

That, skypair, is the glory that Jesus Christ has given the disciples, and all who are in the ministry, and that, preaching the gospel is the same glory that was given to Jesus Christ the Son by the Father, since His deity is eternal and that glory is eternal and did not begin at the foundation of the world.

 

Did I mention your name or your position on the matter? seems to me you singled your self out.
All things are possible with God, or else He isn't God.

As far as being smarter than anyone else! I'm no different than anyone else. I have flaws and make mistakes just like everyone else. I am unrighteous but saved by the righteousness of my Lord.

Paul said;
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

If this is true, and it is, then nothing else but His mercy is necessary for Salvation. Not election, Not predestination, nor ordainment. all that is necessary is God's mercy. The reason is, because all things are possible with God our Father.

 

Predestination, election, and these things are part of this mercy and grace. They are not separate from it.

Again, let's be careful to be precise. All things are not possible with God. It is not possible that God would save people without the death of Christ. It is not possible that God could cease to be God. Etc. So let's make sure we understand what we are saying here.

 

I assume, therefore, that you do not agree with skypair that God tries to save everyone but fails.

 

You did not have to mention names.

But at any rate I realize I came on too strongly, and we have not even exchanged views at any time, so accept my apologies.

Now to your post.

I agree that God's mercy is the basis for His saving those whom He saved, as Paul himself says in Titus 3:5 "Not according to His righteousness, but according to His mercy He saved us".

However, is this mercy for all ?
That is the question here.
Skypairism says God tries hard to save people but He gets frustrated by others, while others seem to take kindly to Him and accepts Him.
Is that true ?
What can you say ?

If that is true, then all God's declarations about His sovereignty, about His Deity, about His glory, are figments of His imagination, and so the Bible has too many contradictions in it, no matter how much one tries to contextualize Scripture.

If that is true, then there is no use for context, and we should only go on a phrase by phrase, chapter by chapter, book by book reading, without any attempt to compare Scripture with Scripture, which by the way, Scripture itself says we ought to do.

If that is NOT true, then mercy, grace, will, and salvation, among a few, have their proper context and uses by which we can deduce their meanings and applications.

You say there is no need for God to elect anyone, or so as not to quote you out of context, the phrases you used are:

If God does not elect, and predestinate, and ordain people unto salvation, in other words, if God Himself does not step in to save some, and all that is needed is His mercy, then He will have to show mercy on everyone of His creation.

But what about their sin ? Where then is justice ? And if all that is needed is mercy, then of what necessity was it for Him to put on human form and die on the cross, if after all, His mercy is subject to the acceptance of those He is trying to save ? In that context I can understand why Skypairism says God is trying, and trying, and trying, but repeatedly fails.

 

No. Not yet.

No. He doesn't decide for us what pair of socks we wear, whether we fart and burp in public or not, or soil our underwear. He doesn't decide for that rattlesnake in the desert to strike at that researcher at a given minute or time, or for somebody's wife or husband to go after another flesh.
He doesn't decide for us if the loudmouth in Iran actually drops a bomb on Israel, or on America, or if Bush actually orders another war we sure can't afford.
He doesn't decide if a preacher's son or daughter he brought up in the word becomes an addict, a prostitute, a sodomite, or another preacher.
These things are all outcomes of living in a fallen world, skypair.

We live in a sin-permeated world, in a sin-dominated environment, in a sin-inclined body, with a sin-infested mind, and this is true of you as well as of me, true of Pastor Larry, Rippon, all the Calvinists you don't like, true of Calvin whom you so dislike though you've never met him, and true of Arminius whose theology you toe, even if you deny it.

And because we, Christians and non-Christians alike live in such an environment and in such a body, unless God Himself, in mercy to many, works His will on those on whom He had mercy on from the foundation of the world, none will be saved at all.

And I thank Him He did. If you can't thank Him for that, then that is your problem, not mine, and I really don't care.

If you feel more comfortable in thinking that in some ways man reigns supreme over God because man is able to overcome God's will for his good, then bask in that "glory". You're welcome to it.

No. I know good and well that people who don't come to Christ don't come to Christ because they never had a Savior in the first place, and therefore the Father will never draw them to Christ. The Savior Himself said, and those words are in red in your Bible, that "all that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out". Go figure that one out.

No. God is not sovereign ultimately. He is always sovereign.

To you God is like Kasparov who sits down in a chess game, not knowing the first move of the opponent and therefore having no game plan until the first move is made, after which he anticipates what the next moves would be and what countermoves he is going to make, and ultimately comes out the winner because he is master of this game.

That is not what the Bible says about God. I gather that is what skypairism says about God.

Again, I disagree.

No one is free of God.

We may think we are, but we are not.
The one who knows the Scripture and chooses to sin will suffer the consequences of that sin here on earth, if he is a child of God.
Examples: King David, Samson, Solomon.

The one who does not know the Scripture and therefore lives in sin will suffer the consequences of sin both on earth, and in eternity.
Example: Nebuchadnezzar.
Example: one who is not a child of God and has no knowledge of Scripture lives a promiscous life gets either AIDS, syphillis, gonnorhea, or herpes, and suffers the effects of the disease, and dies and suffers in eternity.

No one escapes God's judgment on sin.

God has set laws in motion. Sin will result in curses, chastisement, and suffering. Obedience results in blessings, both natural, and God-given.

Example: God tells His people to work and labor, to save and be diligent like the ant.
The lazy child of God will surely experience poverty, while the industrious and diligent who may not be children of God will surely prosper.
Being a child of God is no guarantee to immediate natural blessings.
These laws are true for the child of God as well as for those who are not His children.
Therefore, no one is free of God.

God is always sovereign.

In light of my reply above your point is moot and academic.
Also, if I remember my mythologies, your description of God is a little bit closer to the Greek gods than you say about Calvinists.

No. From what I've read so far, skypairisms are mostly shaky man-made suppositions and theories.

 

Salvation is conditional--upon election, atonement, belief, etc. Election is not. But again, the way words are thrown around here is confusing to many. I think we need to be more careful with our use of words.

 

Oh so true Sky!

But don't forget that most of those same "men" were forced into that position and function over the centuries because of the warfare of the evil one and his false teachers against the church.

But we have His promise:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


HankD

 

I don't know Sky, I'm neither Calviniam or Arminist.

Apart from Jesus Christ or those chosen for inspiration, I just can't see attaching myself or my beliefs to a man's name.

RE: "all", etc, Here's one of the things I believe (among many):

NKJ Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent

HankD​