Why...

I can’t exegete anything about Calvin. I do not own any books by Calvin and have not read him. I place my trust in Scripture.

Whosoever may believe. That means anyone. Who does believe? The elect. No non elect person believes. They freely and willfully reject. However, as for what Calvin says, I have no idea. My theology comes from Scripture.

Yes, we all believe that only certain whosoevers receive eternal life. That is the undeniable teaching of the text. Whosoever believes has eternal life; those who do not believe do not have it.

This makes no sense to me. I am not sure what your objection is or your point.

Fein? I am not sure what that means. I believe in God as he has revealed himself in Scripture.

I agree that he is talking about believers, but how can you? The Bible says “Those whom he foreknew.” If foreknowledge is simply knowing ahead of time, then he foreknows not only believers but also unbelievers. The passage says that those who he foreknew are called, justified, and glorified. That would include unbelievers by your definition.

Remember, the text is the authority. The text does not say what you have said here.

Again, notice how you are avoiding Scripture. I don’t presume that he deals with unbelievers and believers alike. I point out that he deals with all the foreknown alike. How do you avoid that?

You need to read the verse. You are so flippant with the word of God it is unreal.

[quoet]Point: Does it make ANY difference to you which side of "according to" that each of these elements appears? Would it be OK to say (which I think Calvinists do) that one is under the blood according to election, foreknowledge, and indwelling?" That's as if to say they are saved because they are elect, foreknown, and indwelt. Where is belief in the blood of Jesus in that formulation??? According to your formulation, belief is not even required![/quote]That is simply dishonest on your part yet again. I have fully affirmed the necessity of belief. I know of no Calvinist that denies the necessity of faith for salvation.

I notice you didn’t deal with the verse. Why not? The verse says that election happens before creation and before the foundation of the world. That alone destroys your whole idea. Rather than deal with it, you call the teaching of Scripture fatalism. If it is fatalism, that’s fine. If is what Scripture teaches. I don’t believe it is fatalism, but the authority is Scripture. So why ignore it?

2 Tim 2 is not about Jews so far as I can tell. If you think it is, then you show from the text how. As for Rom 9-11, I am quite familiar with it. That wasn’t being discussed here.

I didn’t shuffle the words. You did.

As I pointed out, you are abusing the text. You don’t like what it says so you change it.

Sure, but how is that relevant?

Not until you quit changing the Scripture to fit your own ideas. Scripture has authority and you are very close to denying it. Why? I have no idea.

Let’s try to go back to election and see if we can get a simple clear answer from you: Do you believe Eph 1:4 and 2 Thess 2:13 that say election happens before the foundation of the world?

Yes or no. (Please don’t distract with other things here. Let’s make some progress.)

 

I admire your patience, PL, I truly do.
I wish I had the same amount of patience.
But to each his own gift.
God bless.

 

Your request wasn't to exegete the passage. It was to explain how Calvin meant something. You make one ridiculous request and then complain that PL didn't answer another. I don't know how he has the patience to deal with such foolishness.

 

"Whosoever" believes believes because he has eternal life already. To Timothy Paul put it as the gospel brings life and immortality to light.

Something comes to light because before whatever brought it to light, that something was already there.

 

That wasn't your request. Go back and reread. You said, "Please exegete for us how Calvin says God loves the whole world but the "world" he talks about elsewhere is the "elect."" My response is that I can't (and have no interest in) exegeting what Calvin said. I wasn't aware that Johh 3:16 is controversial.

Yes. I do not know any Calvinists who disagree.

Here again, you are simply ignoring the passage. It says that those who are foreknown are called, justified, and glorified. It does not say "those foreknown to believe." You don't need to go slowly. REading quickly will show that the text does not say what you need it to. If you think "foreknow" means simply knowing ahead of time, and if you agree with Paul that those who are foreknown are justified and glorified, then you have to be a universalist because using your definition, God "foreknows" unbelievers too since he knows beforehand that they won't believe. If you think about this a bit and give up your normal reaction of retorting, you will probably be able to see it pretty quickly.

Yes, I do. You are the one with a serious problem. Again, look at the text. It says that those who are foreknown end up glorified. God "foreknows" unbelievers by your definition. So to exegete the text, you must have them glorified. You don't because you are not a good exegete. You are devoted to a system, not to the text.

I think we go with what the text says.

That's dishonest on your part.

I am not sure I understand your question. The Bible teahces that election precedes faith. Period. How is that confusing?

I agree.

That's not what the text says. Which again is my point. You don't believe the text.

YOu have misdefined fatalism, and accused the loving and gracious God of Scripture of fatalism. Listen, I don't care what you call it. If you want to call it fatalism that is okay. The point is the concept that lies behind the word.

And the second one to fail to show that it is true.

If it were true, sure it would. But you have to show it is true.

No you don't have the same problem. The problem I have actually exists. I have demonstrated clearly where you have changed Scripture. YOu have not demonstrated that for me.

The Bible declares that election happened in eternity past. You are the one who disagrees. No contemporary event affects that. Election does affect contemporary events, however.

Because that is what it is in Scripture.

Blessing and promise are certainly connected with it, but it is not election to blessing and promise per se, but election to salvation. But you are correct that election and foreknowledge is truly predetermined without inpute from our faith and walk. THat is what I have said all along and you have disagreed with. YOu think election comes from our faith.

AGain, we see the travesty that you are making of Scripture. Why? Why not submit your will and your theology to waht God says?

 

Pastor Larry, I'm not around much anymore but I still like and learn from your arguments.

Skypair, You seem to constantly ignore certain scriptures due to inconvenience but then protest when PL interprets other scriptures in ways that do not create a contradiction between the two. John 3:16 does not disagree with Romans 8... or with the first few verses of John 3 for that matter. In fact your answer for whosoever is found here:

In the very context of the proof text you cite, new birth is compared to physical birth. Is physical birth a matter of personal will? No. Is it a violation of free will? No.

If your argument is that faith or belief must precede election then the comparison to birth makes no sense. The parallel isn't there.

 

Why would anyone assume anyone else is elect when all the elect were Jews? Not one gentile that I know of was ever pronounced elect in scripture. Maybe you can show us one?
MB

 

I am not saying that all Calvinists say that. I am saying that there are a great number (probably a great majority) who do. I don’t think that’s progress since it hasn’t changed, unless by “progress” you mean you are finally understanding what we have been saying for a long time. You gotta remember that John P is a nice guy, but his views and not typical Calvinism.

I didn’t let that slip at all

I agree that “foreknown” are believers. But as I keep pointing out and you keep ignoring, you can’t really believe that because of how you define it.

You say that “foreknow” means simply to know ahead of time. If that is true, then God foreknows unbelievers as well as believers. And when you read Rom 8:29, it does not say “Some of whom God foreknows” are predestined … glorified. The text makes it clear that all of whom God foreknows are eventually glorified. You cannot believe that with your definition.

So does that you mean you are correcting your statement above? It appears you are now agreeing that foreknow means something other than simply know ahead of time.

Foreknow and elect are very close in meaning. I have properly interpreted both. I think I have at the very least shown that foreknow does not mean simply to know ahead of time. And I think you agree with that now since you acknowledge that unbelievers are not foreknown because they will never have a relationship with God. I think it is obvious that you have to change your definition of foreknow now.

We are elect because we were chosen. Indwelling and receiving Christ follows that.

We receive Christ because we were elect and foreknown. Indwelling follows that.

Again, I cite the passages you have never dealt with: Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13; 2 Tim 2:10. There are more, but we start with those.

I don’t think his choice was random. I think it is due to his eternal gracious purposes. That’s one reason why it is not fatalism, BTW.

 

Why would you assume the elect are all Jews when there is no verse of the Bible that says that?

Sure. The Ephesian believers which are both Jews and Gentiles (cf 2:11ff with 1:4). The Thessalonian believers who were elect (cf. 1 Thess 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13) included a number of "God fearing Greeks" (Acts 17:4). Paul had a mission to preach to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15) and that is the context of his statement in 2 Timothy 2:10.

So clearly, the elect is not just Jews. I have just shown three irrefutable evidences that the elect includes Gentiles.

 

SP,

Recognize that Pinoybaptist's position is not a typical Calvinist position here. He is, I believe, a primitive Baptist, which are what most people think of when they think of hyper-Calvinists.

 

Here is the Scripture. 2 Timothy 1:9-10

These scriptures are clear. God saved (past tense), and called (also past tense, see Romans 8:29-30). His grace was given to His own in Christ Jesus before the world began (and neither you, pretender, nor Paul, nor Timothy, nor Pastor Larry, nor I, nor any Calvinist, or Primitive Baptist, nor Augustine, nor Billy Sunday were already existing before the world began), and that grace, given in Christ Jesus to God's own before the world began, is (present tense to Paul during the time of his writing) now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ (John the Apostle says For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Paul uses the phrase made manifest, shown, in Christ's appearing. check it out in John 1:17),
And Jesus Christ not only abolished death, but with the gospel He brings from God's own third heaven, He brought life and immortality to light.

What is to be brought to light but that which was hidden from view or in the case of God's elect child, that which he had no knowledge of but he possessed ?

Grace was given to God's own before the foundation of the world.
Grace which is salvation from God's wrath for those who deserved it.
This grace was God's people's from the foundation of the world.

Now, who's a thief and a liar but he who would rob God of His glory and grace by presenting himself a teacher of truth but has nothing but convolution of Scriptures.

 

God is Sovereign. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will...

Praise Him. I Praise Him for my fate.

john.

 

johnp, why did you start another membership here with a new screen name?