Why...

[Pastor Larry]

OK, Please exegete for us how Calvin says God loves the whole world but the "world" he talks about elsewhere is the "elect." And don't the 2, then, uses of "world" contradict each other and scripture?

I can’t exegete anything about Calvin. I do not own any books by Calvin and have not read him. I place my trust in Scripture.

Same for "whosoever." If you maintain "whosoever" really means anyone, then please explain why, when it appears elsewhere, Calvin says "whosoever" means "elect" again.

Whosoever may believe. That means anyone. Who does believe? The elect. No non elect person believes. They freely and willfully reject. However, as for what Calvin says, I have no idea. My theology comes from Scripture.

And, in fact, if God can say whosoever here and you are cool with it, but then later, in practical terms, only certain whosoevers can receive eternal life, how do you not deny John 3:16??

Yes, we all believe that only certain whosoevers receive eternal life. That is the undeniable teaching of the text. Whosoever believes has eternal life; those who do not believe do not have it.

Also there's the little thing about "believing" right here. It doesn't say that God beleives or God believes "for" anyone but that "whosoever believeth." Just as if Jesus does not already know the elect and that believers would come of their own volition.

This makes no sense to me. I am not sure what your objection is or your point.

See, elsewhere, Larry you have given me the impression of having another God than I but right here you seemingly fein agreement.

Fein? I am not sure what that means. I believe in God as he has revealed himself in Scripture.

No, there's no universalism if you first realize that God is talking about only believers throughout this passage just like He talked about only the lost in Rom 1.

I agree that he is talking about believers, but how can you? The Bible says “Those whom he foreknew.” If foreknowledge is simply knowing ahead of time, then he foreknows not only believers but also unbelievers. The passage says that those who he foreknew are called, justified, and glorified. That would include unbelievers by your definition.

So just begin the litany foreknow, predestine, call, justify, glorify with the idea that these in 8:29-30 can only be believers and God CAN foreknow/foresee anything He wants to -- their "belief" in this case!

Remember, the text is the authority. The text does not say what you have said here.

God foreknows them, I will grant you. That He deals with them the same as He does the saved is what you want us to presume but 1) that is patently not true and 2) obviously not what this passage is teaching. You wanna know what He does to the unbelievers He foreknows, go the Rom 1.

Again, notice how you are avoiding Scripture. I don’t presume that he deals with unbelievers and believers alike. I point out that he deals with all the foreknown alike. How do you avoid that?

So that would make them foreknown, indwelt, and under the blood according to election. It just "flips" the cause and effect (puts the cart before the horse) to say that. I mean, it is what you believe but it is not what the verse says.

You need to read the verse. You are so flippant with the word of God it is unreal.

[quoet]Point: Does it make ANY difference to you which side of "according to" that each of these elements appears? Would it be OK to say (which I think Calvinists do) that one is under the blood according to election, foreknowledge, and indwelling?" That's as if to say they are saved because they are elect, foreknown, and indwelt. Where is belief in the blood of Jesus in that formulation??? According to your formulation, belief is not even required![/quote]That is simply dishonest on your part yet again. I have fully affirmed the necessity of belief. I know of no Calvinist that denies the necessity of faith for salvation.

That, my friend, is the exact definition of fatalism -- everything on earth just mirrors the "fates" that have already been decided. See, free will sees the foreknowledge as foreseeing because it is our decision to believe. Calvinism sees foreknowledge as predestination because it is God's decision for us to believe and "He alone is sovereign". Therefore, it is easy to see that Calvinism imposed their meaning on a term that usually means simply foresee. It's a very good deception especially when one considers that scripture confirms itself only 2 words later!

"For whom He did predestinate, He did predestinate..." To most literalists, that would seem to be an "ironclad case!"

I notice you didn’t deal with the verse. Why not? The verse says that election happens before creation and before the foundation of the world. That alone destroys your whole idea. Rather than deal with it, you call the teaching of Scripture fatalism. If it is fatalism, that’s fine. If is what Scripture teaches. I don’t believe it is fatalism, but the authority is Scripture. So why ignore it?

You missed something. Paul speaks of Israel, the Jews, as "God's elect." When he says here he suffers for the "elect's sake," he is referring to Israel, not to anonymous unbelievers who have yet to be recognized. I'm not sure why you don't know this but look at Rom 9-11 and see for yourself.

2 Tim 2 is not about Jews so far as I can tell. If you think it is, then you show from the text how. As for Rom 9-11, I am quite familiar with it. That wasn’t being discussed here.

Well, I thought 1Pet 1:2 was pretty good but you shuffled the words around to mean something else (see above).

I didn’t shuffle the words. You did.

I thought Rom 8:29 was pretty good but you parsed foreknow into something that disallows God to foresee who would believe and for the very reason that THEY chose, be "elect"/predestinated/foreordained by God.

As I pointed out, you are abusing the text. You don’t like what it says so you change it.

Would you take the example of Israel? That God saved them out of Egypt and ever after (starting in Isaiah) refers to them as "Mine elect" also?

Sure, but how is that relevant?

Larry, can we not come to a most basic unity that we ought to have about to who God is??

Not until you quit changing the Scripture to fit your own ideas. Scripture has authority and you are very close to denying it. Why? I have no idea.

Let’s try to go back to election and see if we can get a simple clear answer from you: Do you believe Eph 1:4 and 2 Thess 2:13 that say election happens before the foundation of the world?

Yes or no. (Please don’t distract with other things here. Let’s make some progress.)

 

[pinoybaptist]

I admire your patience, PL, I truly do.
I wish I had the same amount of patience.
But to each his own gift.
God bless.

 

[skypair]

I can’t exegete anything about Calvin. I place my trust in Scripture.

And that is how you reply to my request to exegete John 3:16??

Whosoever may believe. That means anyone...

Fine -- free will then. There is nothing in this passage that for you suggests that whosoever couldn't be anybody in the world, right? That's my God, too. He does not tell us that "He gave His only begotten Son" only for the "elect," does He. The issue of "elect" has been brought into the passage by you. Scripture merely says "whosoever believes."

Whosoever believes has eternal life; those who do not believe do not have it.

Yes. Same God! Good.

I agree that he is talking about believers, but how can you? The Bible says “Those whom he foreknew.”

OK, we'll go over that slowly so you will understand. Who receives "justification" and "glory?" Not unbelievers, right? So how could you say that I have to see unbelievers here in this passage?? The "qualifier" of who was foreseen is what happens to them, NOT that all are foreseen.

If foreknowledge is simply knowing ahead of time, then he foreknows not only believers but also unbelievers. The passage says that those who he foreknew are called, justified, and glorified. That would include unbelievers by your definition.

Except -- I say again -- unbelievers aren't "justified" nor "glorified." You don't exegete other texts the way you did this one, do you?

Remember, the text is the authority. The text does not say what you have said here.

So the "text" doesn't directly say that Paul is talking about believers. Perhaps it would take a brain surgeon to find that out, eh? :laugh:

That is simply dishonest on your part yet again. I have fully affirmed the necessity of belief.

Yes, but not by any "whosoever" and not as if it was their own "belief" that allows them to have "eternal life."

Again, I don't believe you answered the question: Does it make ANY difference to you which side of "according to" that each of these elements appears? Would it be OK to say that one is under the blood according to [because of] election, foreknowledge, and indwelling?" Isn't that a whole different meaning than "elect" according to [because of] foreknowledge, indwelling, and the blood?

I notice you didn’t deal with the verse. Why not? The verse says that election happens before creation and before the foundation of the world. That alone destroys your whole idea.

Actually that is a different aspect but I will deal with it. Foreknowledge is not predestination. If it was, then we would have to rearrange the words that surround "according to." Like I just said, to you being "sprinkled by the blood" would be according to ELECTION, foreknowledge, and indwelling.

Before creation, "election" only a "gleem in the eye" of God -- He knew it was coming and what it would be like but actually, "election" and "the elect" is blessings and purposes in the context of time.

[qupte]If it is fatalism, that’s fine.[/quote] No, that's not "fine." You have misinterpretted scripture to see a Greek-style god and not the real God.

2 Tim 2 is not about Jews so far as I can tell.

Well, I'm the 2nd one to bring it up to you. Does that not at least affect how you interpret 2Tim 2??

Not until you quit changing the Scripture to fit your own ideas. Scripture has authority and you are very close to denying it. Why? I have no idea.

We could back and forth all day on this. I have the same problem with your changing scriptures to fit your ideas. That gets us nowhere. We need to iron out what it is that differs in our "knowledge and faith of Christ."

Let’s try to go back to election and see if we can get a simple clear answer from you: Do you believe Eph 1:4 and 2 Thess 2:13 that say election happens before the foundation of the world?

Yes, it is foreknown from the foundation of the world -- it was not accomplished then. All of scripture avers this. You claim that election was accomplished then and there is no contemporary event that has any bearing whatsoever on it. That, indeed, is fatalism.

See, election to you is to salvation -- election to me is to blessing and purpose and, therefore, is foreknown but truly predetermined without "input" from our faith and walk.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

And that is how you reply to my request to exegete John 3:16??

Your request wasn't to exegete the passage. It was to explain how Calvin meant something. You make one ridiculous request and then complain that PL didn't answer another. I don't know how he has the patience to deal with such foolishness.

 

[pinoybaptist]

"Whosoever" believes believes because he has eternal life already. To Timothy Paul put it as the gospel brings life and immortality to light.

Something comes to light because before whatever brought it to light, that something was already there.

 

[Pastor Larry]

And that is how you reply to my request to exegete John 3:16??

That wasn't your request. Go back and reread. You said, "Please exegete for us how Calvin says God loves the whole world but the "world" he talks about elsewhere is the "elect."" My response is that I can't (and have no interest in) exegeting what Calvin said. I wasn't aware that Johh 3:16 is controversial.

Fine -- free will then. There is nothing in this passage that for you suggests that whosoever couldn't be anybody in the world, right? That's my God, too. He does not tell us that "He gave His only begotten Son" only for the "elect," does He. The issue of "elect" has been brought into the passage by you. Scripture merely says "whosoever believes."

Yes. I do not know any Calvinists who disagree.

OK, we'll go over that slowly so you will understand. Who receives "justification" and "glory?" Not unbelievers, right? So how could you say that I have to see unbelievers here in this passage?? The "qualifier" of who was foreseen is what happens to them, NOT that all are foreseen.

Here again, you are simply ignoring the passage. It says that those who are foreknown are called, justified, and glorified. It does not say "those foreknown to believe." You don't need to go slowly. REading quickly will show that the text does not say what you need it to. If you think "foreknow" means simply knowing ahead of time, and if you agree with Paul that those who are foreknown are justified and glorified, then you have to be a universalist because using your definition, God "foreknows" unbelievers too since he knows beforehand that they won't believe. If you think about this a bit and give up your normal reaction of retorting, you will probably be able to see it pretty quickly.

Except -- I say again -- unbelievers aren't "justified" nor "glorified." You don't exegete other texts the way you did this one, do you?

Yes, I do. You are the one with a serious problem. Again, look at the text. It says that those who are foreknown end up glorified. God "foreknows" unbelievers by your definition. So to exegete the text, you must have them glorified. You don't because you are not a good exegete. You are devoted to a system, not to the text.

So the "text" doesn't directly say that Paul is talking about believers. Perhaps it would take a brain surgeon to find that out, eh?

I think we go with what the text says.

Yes, but not by any "whosoever" and not as if it was their own "belief" that allows them to have "eternal life."

That's dishonest on your part.

Again, I don't believe you answered the question: Does it make ANY difference to you which side of "according to" that each of these elements appears? Would it be OK to say that one is under the blood according to [because of] election, foreknowledge, and indwelling?" Isn't that a whole different meaning than "elect" according to [because of] foreknowledge, indwelling, and the blood?

I am not sure I understand your question. The Bible teahces that election precedes faith. Period. How is that confusing?

Foreknowledge is not predestination.

I agree.

Before creation, "election" only a "gleem in the eye" of God -- He knew it was coming and what it would be like but actually, "election" and "the elect" is blessings and purposes in the context of time.

That's not what the text says. Which again is my point. You don't believe the text.

If it is fatalism, that’s fine.

No, that's not "fine." You have misinterpretted scripture to see a Greek-style god and not the real God.

YOu have misdefined fatalism, and accused the loving and gracious God of Scripture of fatalism. Listen, I don't care what you call it. If you want to call it fatalism that is okay. The point is the concept that lies behind the word.

Well, I'm the 2nd one to bring it up to you.

And the second one to fail to show that it is true.

Does that not at least affect how you interpret 2Tim 2??

If it were true, sure it would. But you have to show it is true.

I have the same problem with your changing scriptures to fit your ideas.

No you don't have the same problem. The problem I have actually exists. I have demonstrated clearly where you have changed Scripture. YOu have not demonstrated that for me.

Yes, it is foreknown from the foundation of the world -- it was not accomplished then. All of scripture avers this. You claim that election was accomplished then and there is no contemporary event that has any bearing whatsoever on it. That, indeed, is fatalism.

The Bible declares that election happened in eternity past. You are the one who disagrees. No contemporary event affects that. Election does affect contemporary events, however.

See, election to you is to salvation

Because that is what it is in Scripture.

election to me is to blessing and purpose and, therefore, is foreknown but truly predetermined without "input" from our faith and walk.

Blessing and promise are certainly connected with it, but it is not election to blessing and promise per se, but election to salvation. But you are correct that election and foreknowledge is truly predetermined without inpute from our faith and walk. THat is what I have said all along and you have disagreed with. YOu think election comes from our faith.

AGain, we see the travesty that you are making of Scripture. Why? Why not submit your will and your theology to waht God says?

 

[Scott J]

Pastor Larry, I'm not around much anymore but I still like and learn from your arguments.

Skypair, You seem to constantly ignore certain scriptures due to inconvenience but then protest when PL interprets other scriptures in ways that do not create a contradiction between the two. John 3:16 does not disagree with Romans 8... or with the first few verses of John 3 for that matter. In fact your answer for whosoever is found here:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

In the very context of the proof text you cite, new birth is compared to physical birth. Is physical birth a matter of personal will? No. Is it a violation of free will? No.

If your argument is that faith or belief must precede election then the comparison to birth makes no sense. The parallel isn't there.

 

[skypair]

Yes. I do not know any Calvinists who disagree.

OK, let me get this straight --- Calvinists say that "world" means God loves everyone, not just the "elect?" And that "whosoever" is not just the "elect" either?? But that's just here, then, right? Well, that's progress.

Here again, you are simply ignoring the passage.

Not at all.

It says that those who are foreknown are called, justified, and glorified. It does not say "those foreknown to believe."

Actually, you're letting a word or two slip. It says "For whom He did foreknow..."

Who did He foreknow? Read Gal 4:9 -- "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,..." Right here we see that those "known" and "foreknown" of God are believers. Of unbelievers, God could say, "Behold, I NEVER knew you." Plus, 8:28 would give you that context (I've mentioned this before) that Paul was speaking about BELIEVERS, Larry.

See, you are reading the whole passage as if foreknow means "to elect." Sproul does a good job of messing this one up too.

...then you have to be a universalist because using your definition, God "foreknows" unbelievers too since he knows beforehand that they won't believe.

I stand corrected. The "foreknown" would appear to be believers and unbelievers were not known because they never will have a relationship with God.

This still doesn't mean that God chose the relationship as you insist. That is what you need to prove in order to properly intepret the 2 words at issue -- foreknow and predestine. They are NOT the same thing, Larry. So what is the difference? Does "foreknow" = "elect?"

I am not sure I understand your question. The Bible teahces that election precedes faith. Period. How is that confusing?

OK here's the question:

Does it make ANY difference to you which side of "according to" that each of these elements appears? Would it be OK to say that one is under the blood according to [because of] election, foreknowledge, and indwelling?" Isn't that a whole different meaning than "elect" according to [because of] foreknowledge, indwelling, and the blood?

Here's the short form:

A) Are we "elect" because of/according to we were foreknown, indwelt, and received Christ?

B) Or do we, as you put it, receive Christ because of/according to we were foreknown, elected, and indwelt?

Cause this latter is NOT what the verse says, is it.

OK, I'll dispense with the rest of your post if you just show me in scripture where someone was elected to salvation (again if necessary but don't feed me back with "predestined" cause that isn't what I am looking for). Please notice too, I'm not taunting you like you were the "village idiot." I'm trying to comprehend how your thoughts come out of scripture.

But so far, all I can get from you is that God randomly chooses some to glory before He even knows them because He will "know" them by making them perform as He predestines. Is that your "foreknow-predestine" formula?

skypair

 

[MB]

Which part of the verse is this found in?

Why would anyone assume anyone else is elect when all the elect were Jews? Not one gentile that I know of was ever pronounced elect in scripture. Maybe you can show us one?
MB

 

[Pastor Larry]

OK, let me get this straight --- Calvinists say that "world" means God loves everyone, not just the "elect?" And that "whosoever" is not just the "elect" either?? But that's just here, then, right? Well, that's progress.

I am not saying that all Calvinists say that. I am saying that there are a great number (probably a great majority) who do. I don’t think that’s progress since it hasn’t changed, unless by “progress” you mean you are finally understanding what we have been saying for a long time. You gotta remember that John P is a nice guy, but his views and not typical Calvinism.

Actually, you're letting a word or two slip. It says "For whom He did foreknow..."

I didn’t let that slip at all

Who did He foreknow? Read Gal 4:9 -- "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements,..." Right here we see that those "known" and "foreknown" of God are believers. Of unbelievers, God could say, "Behold, I NEVER knew you." Plus, 8:28 would give you that context (I've mentioned this before) that Paul was speaking about BELIEVERS, Larry.

I agree that “foreknown” are believers. But as I keep pointing out and you keep ignoring, you can’t really believe that because of how you define it.

You say that “foreknow” means simply to know ahead of time. If that is true, then God foreknows unbelievers as well as believers. And when you read Rom 8:29, it does not say “Some of whom God foreknows” are predestined … glorified. The text makes it clear that all of whom God foreknows are eventually glorified. You cannot believe that with your definition.

I stand corrected. The "foreknown" would appear to be believers and unbelievers were not known because they never will have a relationship with God.

So does that you mean you are correcting your statement above? It appears you are now agreeing that foreknow means something other than simply know ahead of time.

This still doesn't mean that God chose the relationship as you insist. That is what you need to prove in order to properly intepret the 2 words at issue -- foreknow and predestine. They are NOT the same thing, Larry. So what is the difference? Does "foreknow" = "elect?"

Foreknow and elect are very close in meaning. I have properly interpreted both. I think I have at the very least shown that foreknow does not mean simply to know ahead of time. And I think you agree with that now since you acknowledge that unbelievers are not foreknown because they will never have a relationship with God. I think it is obvious that you have to change your definition of foreknow now.

A) Are we "elect" because of/according to we were foreknown, indwelt, and received Christ?

We are elect because we were chosen. Indwelling and receiving Christ follows that.

B) Or do we, as you put it, receive Christ

because of/according to we were foreknown, elected, and indwelt?

We receive Christ because we were elect and foreknown. Indwelling follows that.

OK, I'll dispense with the rest of your post if you just show me in scripture where someone was elected to salvation (again if necessary but don't feed me back with "predestined" cause that isn't what I am looking for). Please notice too, I'm not taunting you like you were the "village idiot." I'm trying to comprehend how your thoughts come out of scripture.

Again, I cite the passages you have never dealt with: Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13; 2 Tim 2:10. There are more, but we start with those.

But so far, all I can get from you is that God randomly chooses some to glory before He even knows them because He will "know" them by making them perform as He predestines. Is that your "foreknow-predestine" formula?

I don’t think his choice was random. I think it is due to his eternal gracious purposes. That’s one reason why it is not fatalism, BTW.

 

[skypair]

Pastor Larry, I'm not around much anymore but I still like and learn from your arguments.

Skypair, You seem to constantly ignore certain scriptures due to inconvenience but then protest when PL interprets other scriptures in ways that do not create a contradiction between the two. John 3:16 does not disagree with Romans 8... or with the first few verses of John 3 for that matter. In fact your answer for whosoever is found here: [/COLOR]
In the very context of the proof text you cite, new birth is compared to physical birth. Is physical birth a matter of personal will? No. Is it a violation of free will? No.

If your argument is that faith or belief must precede election then the comparison to birth makes no sense. The parallel isn't there.

Scott, thanks for your critique. To my knowledge, I have not ignored scriptures but you may go ahead and show me which ones you believe that I did ignore so I can satisfactorily answer to you personally.

Interesting comments regarding being born and born again. It is exactly the same -- if the "seed" was planted, we really have no choice but to be born, right?

So at birth, we know about the sperm and the egg. And in the second birth, we know about the "seed" of the word (1Pet 1:23) and the receptive "egg" of our own heart, the "good soil," right? So yeah, IF the word does a work in our hearts like the sperm does in the egg, life is formed -- regeneration we call it, or rebirth.

Do you realize that the to the OT saints, this is a blessed hope? They haven't been reborn yet! But one day, because they believed way back when, a new life will be born -- born again -- from the grave!! They will have indwelt bodies just like us!!

And now you know what Nicodemus couldn't comprehend though he was a "Master of Israel." Remember when Nicodemus said, "Can a man go back into the womb?" No, but he can be born again from the grave, the womb of mother earth, if I may.

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

Why would anyone assume anyone else is elect when all the elect were Jews?

Why would you assume the elect are all Jews when there is no verse of the Bible that says that?

Not one gentile that I know of was ever pronounced elect in scripture. Maybe you can show us one?

Sure. The Ephesian believers which are both Jews and Gentiles (cf 2:11ff with 1:4). The Thessalonian believers who were elect (cf. 1 Thess 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13) included a number of "God fearing Greeks" (Acts 17:4). Paul had a mission to preach to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15) and that is the context of his statement in 2 Timothy 2:10.

So clearly, the elect is not just Jews. I have just shown three irrefutable evidences that the elect includes Gentiles.

 

[skypair]

Larry -- do you agree with this???

"Whosoever" believes believes because he has eternal life already. To Timothy Paul put it as the gospel brings life and immortality to light.

Something comes to light because before whatever brought it to light, that something was already there.

No, pinoy.

You're tryin' but I'm not buyin'!!

Scripture says that the exact opposite is true "...that whosoever believeth on Him should ... have eternal life." John 3:16

"Rearranging the chairs on the Titanic" is often done but it never changes the outcome. "Whosoever has eternal life believes" in NOT what the verse says and if it were so, there would be NO NEED of belief at all! That'd be climbing over the fence by some other way (John 10:1), pinoy, as if saying, "God brought me in here without Christ." Shame on you, "thief and robber!"

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

SP,

Recognize that Pinoybaptist's position is not a typical Calvinist position here. He is, I believe, a primitive Baptist, which are what most people think of when they think of hyper-Calvinists.

 

[pinoybaptist]

No, pinoy.

You're tryin' but I'm not buyin'!!

Scripture says that the exact opposite is true "...that whosoever believeth on Him should ... have eternal life." John 3:16

"Rearranging the chairs on the Titanic" is often done but it never changes the outcome. "Whosoever has eternal life believes" in NOT what the verse says and if it were so, there would be NO NEED of belief at all! That'd be climbing over the fence by some other way (John 10:1), pinoy, as if saying, "God brought me in here without Christ." Shame on you, "thief and robber!"

skypair

Here is the Scripture. 2 Timothy 1:9-10

.............God
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

These scriptures are clear. God saved (past tense), and called (also past tense, see Romans 8:29-30). His grace was given to His own in Christ Jesus before the world began (and neither you, pretender, nor Paul, nor Timothy, nor Pastor Larry, nor I, nor any Calvinist, or Primitive Baptist, nor Augustine, nor Billy Sunday were already existing before the world began), and that grace, given in Christ Jesus to God's own before the world began, is (present tense to Paul during the time of his writing) now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ (John the Apostle says For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Paul uses the phrase made manifest, shown, in Christ's appearing. check it out in John 1:17),
And Jesus Christ not only abolished death, but with the gospel He brings from God's own third heaven, He brought life and immortality to light.

What is to be brought to light but that which was hidden from view or in the case of God's elect child, that which he had no knowledge of but he possessed ?

Grace was given to God's own before the foundation of the world.
Grace which is salvation from God's wrath for those who deserved it.
This grace was God's people's from the foundation of the world.

Now, who's a thief and a liar but he who would rob God of His glory and grace by presenting himself a teacher of truth but has nothing but convolution of Scriptures.

 

[skypair]

Here is the Scripture. 2 Timothy 1:9-10

Why are you going to another scripture without responding to John 3:16??? Watch out! Scott is going to accuse you of ignoring scriptures! :laugh:

2Tim 1:9-10: Let's give a little context to those verses. 1) Paul is speaking about Timothy and himself (1:8). God 1) saved them, yes. 2) God called them to the ministry, yes. The latter was "according to His purpose and grace." 3) And God gave them their ministries before creation, yes. That is, He predestined/elected them to their ministries. 4) Verse 1:10 describes WHAT their ministry is. 5) Then this -- "Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles." (1:11) This whole section is about ELECTION/SERVICE, not SALVATION.

skypair

 

[jonnycool]

That’s one reason why it is not fatalism, BTW.

God is Sovereign. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will...

Praise Him. I Praise Him for my fate.

john.

 

[webdog]

johnp, why did you start another membership here with a new screen name?

 

[skypair]

pinoy,

What is to be brought to light but that which was hidden from view or in the case of God's elect child, that which he had no knowledge of but he possessed ?

Do you believe that you were an angel before you were born? That is the only way I can see that you would "possess" salvation before creation.

Now there are some of your persuation the believe they were saved from birth. But there wouldn't be any "born again" for such, would there? Or maybe that is "born again" -- from 1st as angel, 2nd as human?

Now, who's a thief and a liar but he who would rob God of His glory and grace by presenting himself a teacher of truth but has nothing but convolution of Scriptures.

I know you just want to throw this back in my face without thinking about it. So be it. How'd you get in here again? Oh yeah -- by believing what Calvin said that scripture says about salvation, right?

skypair

 

[skypair]

God is Sovereign. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

Yes, our sanctification was determined before creation when God first "foreknew" us.

Praise Him. I Praise Him for my fate.

Yeah -- lucky you.

Too bad for us who think we get to choose but don't, eh?

Just hope you don't end up saying, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Cause it looks like you might be overlooking a "condition" of salvation and election --- personal belief and repentance toward God. That is, being "known" of God.

skypair