Why...

[pinoybaptist]

pinoy,

Do you believe that you were an angel before you were born? That is the only way I can see that you would "possess" salvation before creation.

Well, crooked lawyer, you see, salvation is not "possessed". It is given.
Before you go about quoting what I have said in other posts, I am talking of inherent possession.
If an elect child of God possesses salvation, it is because that salvation was given to him by its rightful owner.
No one possesses salvation but God, and He gives it to whom He will, in accordance with His will, in accordance with His mercy, and you can grow callouses on your knees crying out to God all you want, if salvation is not for you, then it is not for you, your name is not in the Lamb's Book of life, it will not be written there for your sake at anytime after the foundation of the world, and the blood of Glory's Lamb is not for you, and it'll be a freezing cold day in hell before He gives it (salvation) to you.

Now there are some of your persuation the believe they were saved from birth. But there wouldn't be any "born again" for such, would there? Or maybe that is "born again" -- from 1st as angel, 2nd as human?

Ramblings of one grasping for straws. Take a rest.

I know you just want to throw this back in my face without thinking about it. So be it. How'd you get in here again? Oh yeah -- by believing what Calvin said that scripture says about salvation, right?

skypair

Calvin ? Who's he ? In case you don't know yet, I'm no Calvinist. But that can only be apparent to one who truly understands Calvinism, not to somebody like you.

 

[jonnycool]

johnp, why did you start another membership here with a new screen name?

I've changed internet provider and needed to change my e-mail address on BB only to find that my password was wrong. I made the mistake of logging off and was then unable to log on again.
The jonnycool, cool as it is, was because I tried getting a domain name johnparsons and variants of it. All had been taken so I thought jonnycool was worth a shot. I didn't expect it to be available though.

Yeah -- lucky you.

Providencially speaking of course. Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on me with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,

And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure...

Too bad for us who think we get to choose but don't, eh?

You have my prayers not my pity. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." Rom 1:17.

ISA 65:1 "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me...
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Rom 9:16.

GAL 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

Just hope you don't end up saying, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

You can hope as much as you like but a prayer never goes amiss.
Personally, I never give it a thought. I believe that I believe Jesus died for my sins so there is nothing more to do is there? Casting out demons I'll leave to the casters outs of demons. The wonderful works I'll leave to the free willers, you need as many as you can get boys and girls, as for me, "Nothing in my hands I bring."

Cause it looks like you might be overlooking a "condition" of salvation and election --- personal belief and repentance toward God. That is, being "known" of God.

Is it? Cool. I believe Jesus died for my sins what am I lacking? Who's in my head? Jesus is the Christ who took up my infirmities, carried my sorrows, was pierced for my transgressions, was crushed for my iniquities, was oppressed and afflicted, and was assigned a grave with the wicked because He loved me and gave Himself to me. Now tell me you still hope that I'm saved. As for me, "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." (Eli.)

...personal belief and repentance toward God.

There you go webdog. You let on that the only works you are into is to belief and now you say we must repent as well? What else is there to do, to do, to do?

That is, being "known" of God.

As for me, "He is the LORD; let him do what is good in his eyes." (Eli.) I am at His mercy but I have His promises to hold against Him.

john.

 

[jonnycool]

What is to be brought to light but that which was hidden from view or in the case of God's elect child, that which he had no knowledge of but he possessed ? (pinoy)

LK 1:69 He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David 70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago)... 77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins...

john.

 

[skypair]

john,

"Nothing in my hands I bring."

You mean like the "wicked and slothful servant" (Mt 25:26)? I hope you have not gone and "buried" the precious word like this one did -- not "investing" it either in himself or others."

You'll "bring" something if you are a believer, friend. You'll bring either "wood, hay, and stubble" or "gold, silver, and precious stones," 1Cor 3:12. Better start thinking about that, johnnie boy. :saint:

skypair

 

[Scott J]

Scott, thanks for your critique. To my knowledge, I have not ignored scriptures but you may go ahead and show me which ones you believe that I did ignore so I can satisfactorily answer to you personally.

In particular Romans 8 where God's foreknowledge and predesitnation directly leads to justification in clear line of reasoning. This in addition to other scriptures PL has cited concerning our election from well before our physical birth or consciousness.

Interesting comments regarding being born and born again. It is exactly the same -- if the "seed" was planted, we really have no choice but to be born, right?

Yes and no. The child's will may be involved in a primitive way but the origin of that will to be born was not of its own making.

So at birth, we know about the sperm and the egg. And in the second birth, we know about the "seed" of the word (1Pet 1:23) and the receptive "egg" of our own heart, the "good soil," right? So yeah, IF the word does a work in our hearts like the sperm does in the egg, life is formed -- regeneration we call it, or rebirth.

Yes. But the egg does not create itself, choose to be fertilized, or choose the circumstances whereby it is fertilized... nor does it choose to be "receptive". It either is or is not in its nature to be receptive.

And now you know what Nicodemus couldn't comprehend though he was a "Master of Israel." Remember when Nicodemus said, "Can a man go back into the womb?" No, but he can be born again from the grave, the womb of mother earth, if I may.

Nothing you say here helps your cause.

 

[Jarthur001]

johnp, why did you start another membership here with a new screen name?

Because he could not start another membership with the same name, because...the old name...johnp was taken. :saint: :saint:

 

[jonnycool]

skypair.

"Nothing in my hands I bring."

You mean like the "wicked and slothful servant" (Mt 25:26)? I hope you have not gone and "buried" the precious word like this one did -- not "investing" it either in himself or others."

I would have thought being on a discussion forum was investment enough. ISA 55:11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

That's why I use a lot of scriptures.

Better start thinking about that, johnnie boy.

Beat you to it then didn't I?

Agustus Montague Toplady (1740-1778)

1.Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
let me hide myself in thee;
let the water and the blood,
from thy wounded side which flowed,
be of sin the double cure;
save from wrath and make me pure.

2.Not the labors of my hands
can fulfill thy law's commands;
could my zeal no respite know,
could my tears forever flow,
all for sin could not atone;
thou must save, and thou alone.

3.Nothing in my hand I bring,
simply to the cross I cling;
naked, come to thee for dress;
helpless, look to thee for grace;
foul, I to the fountain fly;
wash me, Savior, or I die.

4.While I draw this fleeting breath,
when mine eyes shall close in death,
when I soar to worlds unknown,
see thee on thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
let me hide myself in thee.


john.

 

[pinoybaptist]

To use skypairs own choice of words, jonnycool, "I'll bet" he sings Rock of Ages and has Augustus Toplady agreeing with his choice of what election means. He sure doesn't realize that a lot of saints way before he even was born were firm adherents of the Doctrine of Grace, that if he realized it he would be doing this ----->:BangHead: and this ------>:tonofbricks: to himself.

Or he will probably have to rip more than half off of hymnals.

 

[jonnycool]

1. Rock of Ages
that I cleft ?

2. All the labors of my hands
can fulfill thy law's commands; ?

3. Self-righteousness in my hand I bring
and simply to the cross I cling; ?

Something like this pinoy?

...because...the old name...johnp was taken.

I'm gonna have to live with jonnycool James. The best I can see is that it will annoy some. I wasn't patient enough I think. I thought it would be quick and easier to re-register but I had to wait a couple of days anyway before BB sent me my credentials.


john.

 

[skypair]

In particular Romans 8 where God's foreknowledge and predesitnation directly leads to justification in clear line of reasoning. This in addition to other scriptures PL has cited concerning our election from well before our physical birth or consciousness.

We have debated, PL and I, "ad nauseum" (and "ad hominem" :tear: ) about Rom 8:29-30. I haven't avoided it; you missed it. But I will gladly take it up with you as well.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Calvinist Sproul calls this "the Golden Chain of Salvation." Briefly "foreknow -- predestinate -- call -- justify -- glorify." Agreed?

The main "bones of contention" are 1) the words "foreknow" and "predestinate" and 2) what they are in respect of.

1) Foreknow: Free will say this means simply "saw beforehand." If one believes the God is omniscient (all-KNOWING), then one would have to concede that He could know everything before it ever happens -- including who would freely believe on Christ unto salvation. And thus knowing, He could then predestinate or "plan" the believer's life so that it would be conformed to the image of Christ ("link" #2 in the chain).

Calvinist claim variously that a) if you were truly "free" and hadn't been born yet, God couldn't possibly know beforehand whether you would be a believer or not unless He actually chose you to be one. But see, that violates the ability God says we have to choose AND it violates the distinct purpose of "link" #2 -- predestining believers.

b) The other Calvinist argument at this point is that God would have foreknown everyone -- elect and reprobate alike. Therefore, "foreknow" would mean He predestines everyone to justification and glory. Well, Scott, Rom 8:29-30 does not even infer that God is taking up God's dealing with those He foreknows will be condemned AND again -- foreknow does NOT mean predetermination or forechosen much less to salvation or reprobation.

2) What "foreknow" and "predestine" are in respect of or to: "Foreknow" regards salvation in both camps -- free will be our choice and God's foreseeing it (more precise, then, as to understanding of the real definition of "foreKNOW") -- Calvinists see it as God's prechoosing of, truly, "random names" who had nothing at all to recommend them to their own selection (a "strained" and "special" understanding of the definition of "foreKNOW").

Either way, the predestining is to be conformed to Christ's image. But isn't that what "forechoosing" would be to begin with if that was, indeed, the meaning of "foreknow" is? Sure! He already "forechose" by "foreknowing" them to be conformed the the image of His Son --- so what's this "link" #2 doing here??? What additional meaning could it possibly have that wasn't already meant by "foreknow?"

I often kid PL, "Did God predestine to predestine them? Was He foreknowing to foreknow them?" I mean, that's a joke, right?

Foreknow displays the "free will" of mankind in the Bible -- "predestine" here displays God's foreordained plan for believers. Yes, God planned it that plan "before the foundation of the world" -- not who He would choose but how He would respond to those who chose Him.

Scott, if you are going to participate, I hope you will work toward the objective with me of the OP --- finding Who the "One God" of Eph 4:6 is that I was talking with PL about.

skypair