Will a Christian ever go to hell?

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Also, it is very unfair of you to ignore the fact that in his book, Mr Faust has been more than generous in his citations and shows that this belief has been held by many Christians throughout the centuries. I could list them here if you like?

Check out the citations for yourself and you will find out what kind of a man Joey Faust is.

I believe that we should lay the cards out on the table so that av1611jim and all the other readers will know what this discussion is about. It is about the teachings of Joey Faust in his book, The Rod: Will God Spare it? In this book Joey Faust teaches that Christians who sin will be punished for 1000 years during the millennial reign of Christ. Indeed, this is THE theme of this book and hence its title (will God spare the rod (hold back from punishing) during the millennial reign of Christ.

A further note needs to be added regarding “Free Grace Theology” since this is the theology that Joes Faust and James Newman teach. According to this theology, all that is needed for salvation is belief in Christ. Accepting Christ as one’s savior is all that is required. Accepting Christ as one’s Lord is NOT necessary. Neither is repentance from sin a requirement for salvation. A Believer can continue to live as before, and commit any number of gross atrocities and they will still spend eternity with Christ. They will be punished for 1000 years, but they will still spend eternity with Christ.

av1611jim, is this what you believe?

I believe that we are saved by grace through faith when we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior. Joey Faust calls this a false teaching. He says that repentance is a work, and those who preach that repentance is required for salvation are preaching salvation by works. Unbelievable: Check out Joey Faust’s book for yourself.

I am a Baptist, not a heretic. </font>[/QUOTE]I, too, am a baptist. I am a BELIEVING CHRISTIAN first. As has been evidenced a thousand times on this board; Baptist is a very LOOSE moniker.
"That's all ah've got tuh say 'bout thayat".
Next;
If I am not mistaken, I was the FIRST to introduce this doctrine many many months ago to this board. I was not even given the time of day.
So my answer to Craig...NO I do NOT believe this paragraph you have written about free grace theology. Tell you why...because you got it all WRONG MAN!!! Obviously you are unsuccessfully attempting to mix a little "Lordship salvation" into this mix. Any first year Bible student knows you cannot accept Christ as saviour apart from accepting him as your Lord also. It is IMPOSSIBLE.
He is the Lord....Jesus....Christ. All names, titles, and offices of the SAME person. (A cute little ditty just popped into my head. Goes like this...you can't have one without the other, la..dee...dah.)Anybody out there remember that tune? Seems like it was a disney thing or something...Oh

I almost forgot. (my a d d checked in fer a minit.) Anyway. The point is: You CAN'T have one without the other. So no Craig. I do not believe what you wrote. I DO believe you have misrepresented the doctrine.

Next. I bought Joey's book about 2 years ago. (I think) Craig...I am familiar with it. My copy is about worn out. Read it lots of times. Like Lacy, I did not want it to be true. But the fact is, this doctrine is true. Unlike Joey, however, I cannot say with certainty that disobedient believers burn for a millenium. But I do BELIEVE Jesus' words when he strongly warns his OWN diciples to Fear GOD, for it is he who can destroy both body and soul in hell. This gives a clue as to where the rebels go but I do not believe it is conclusive.... yet.

What is conclusive is this. God will SPANK his childrens. Some lightly, some severly. Not one place in the whole of Scripture does it say, imply, infer, that punishment is in this life only. And there will be many, many of them who get a nice long "visit to the woodshed."
This got too long so ...;
See ya here there or in the air.
In His service
Jim

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Bible is very clear teaching us about chastenment of Christians like as often use in Hebrews chapter 12. Chastenment always deal with Christians DURING in ther lifetime.

There is no promise for any Christians being to be chasten AFTER they died.

Hebrews 9:27 tells us, ONCE TO DIEfor the judgment. There is no escape for Christians and unbelievers once after they died, because they all shall face the judgment day.

Teaching on believers shall suffering punishment 1000 years in the outer darkeness, then they shall be finally be release out of it after the millennium kingdom expired is unbiblical.

I did reading through whole Faust's book. There are so many guessworks in his own intepreting the verses, that I do not agree with him.

No way that you can prove Matt 25:30 saying a lazy Christian shall be released out of the outer darkness after 'millennium kingdom' expired.

Joey Faust knows that. Lacy Evans knows that, also, av1611jim knows that.

Why cannot you accept what Christ actual saying according to Matt. 25:30?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[AVL1984]

Lacy, once the Christian has died, where are they? Separation from God because of sin is for those who are living. Those who know God will be with God after death. The doctrine you are trying to present is for the living, not the dead. It is the well known Catholic teaching of Purgatory. I don't buy it, as there is no basis for it in scripture...especially not departed saints.

AVL1984

 

[James_Newman]

Psalm 139
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

 

[GODzThunder]

depending on what you call a Christian. Being a Christian can mean one who follows Christ, or one who lives their life like Christ OR it can mean one who believes in the teachings of Christ. Saying the latter... Many Church going Christians will be very suprised to awaken in hell.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Lacy Evans,

You say,

The Biblical teaching that a secure believer can be temporally chastened for 1000 years in Hell in no way contradicts the teaching of eternal security

Verse please.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:

Verse please.

You asked.

KJV Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


KJV Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


KJV Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


KJV Ephesians 5:3-7
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

The warnings in these verses apply to and are directed exclusively toward believers. If you are bad, you get a spanking; no kingdom inheretance (see Esau)

KJV Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


KJV Matthew 5:29-30
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


KJV Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

KJV Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

In every one of these verses where Hell is threatened, believers are being addressed directly and exclusively. If not then our salvation is by works. You wouldn't tell an unbeliever to cut off his hand (literally or figuratively). You'd tell him to believe on the finished work of Christ, right?

KJV Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Leavin aside the question of the second death what does this passage imply happens to those who don't experience the 1st ressurrection?

1) They don't reign. (That sounds familiar.)
2) They don't live again UNTIL THE 1000 YEARS IS FINISHED.

KJV Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

And what of those who ARE found in the Book of life?

Revelation 21

1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by James Newman:
Psalm 139
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

James, this doesn't say he intended to do so...it says "IF". It doesn't imply in any wise that he believes that Christians (born again believers) will spend time in Hell.

AVL1984

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by GODzThunder:
depending on what you call a Christian. Being a Christian can mean one who follows Christ, or one who lives their life like Christ OR it can mean one who believes in the teachings of Christ. Saying the latter... Many Church going Christians will be very suprised to awaken in hell.

I'm not talking about unbelievers. I'm talking about born again believes, GODz.

AVL1984

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Bro. Evans,

Thank for verses. I know these verses well. None of these saying Christians will be suffering in there for 1,000 years.

Matt 7:21 'the kingdom of heaven' does not saying it is "a thousand years of kingdom". It speaks of have eternal life

Also, Matt. 7:21-23 tells us in the judgment day, many people will saying to Christ, they did do their works for the Lord. Lord shall tell to them, depart from him, and cast them into darkeness with gnashing of teeth, it apply to people who will be cast into everlasting fire because of their INIQUITY. Iniquity means wicked or sins. The reason they shall be cast into it because of not repent of their sins. Matt 7:21-23 do not promise to us, that a person shall be finally release out of the outer darkness or eternality punishment after 1,000 years. It speaks of very obivously eternal punishment.

Matt. 8:12 is much same with Matt. 25:30. Verse 12 does not saying a person shall be released out of the outer darkness after 1,000 years. It is very clear speak of cast into everlasting punishment.

'Shall not inherit the KIngdom of God'. It does not saying, shall not enter 1,000 years of kingdom. It speaks of cannot have eternal life.

John 3:3 & 7 tell us, Christ says, we MUST BE BORN AGAIN, or.... cannot enter the kingdom of God. It speaks of a person must be repent of sins, OR, cannot have eternal life.

Eph. 5:5 - 'hath any ineritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God'. It speaks of have everlasting life with Christ - dwell in New Jerusalem and on new earth for eternal life.

Matt 5:22 - 'danger of hell fire', it clearly speak of cast into everlasting punishment.

Right now, hell is a temporary place as prison. But, hell is a place for already reservation for all unbelievers and lazy servants await for the coming judgement day - Judgment seat of Christ/great white throne comes, then hell shall be cast into the lake of fire, the lake of fire is the final destiny place for eternality place - Rev. 20:14.

'cast into hell' - Matt 5:30 it does not saying it is a temporary place for Christians to be suffering there. Hell is a RESERVATION place for sinners and lazy servants await for the coming judgement day, then they shall be come out of the hell, and cast hell into the lake of fire, as all of them will be cast into the lake of fire.

Matt 18:9 - 'into hell fire'. I already mentioned above on Matt. 5:30.

I read Faust's book, he always saying, 'kingdom of God' is a millennial kingdom, mostly he used on Gal. 5:21. But, not what in Paul's mind that 'kingdom of God' speaks of 1,000 years kingdom. Paul speaks of any perosn who do wicked and without repent of sins, cannot have eternal life, go to everlasting fire.

We know that.

I already told Joey Faust in email, that 'kingdom of God' is not speak of 1,000 years, it speak of have eternal life according to John 3:3 & 7. Faust does not want to discuss with me. So, I leave him alone.

You know that 'kingdom of God' never saying it is speak of 1000 years kingdom, it always speak of everlasting life.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I understand Psalams 139:8 'if I make my bed in hell', it speaks of sleep in the grave - death.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Craigbythesea]

Will a Christian ever go to hell?

Of course not! Hell is not for the Christians, but for the other folks:

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Craigbythesea]

1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by AVL1984:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James Newman:
Psalm 139
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

James, this doesn't say he intended to do so...it says "IF". It doesn't imply in any wise that he believes that Christians (born again believers) will spend time in Hell.

AVL1984 </font>[/QUOTE]My point is that the Bible teaches clearly that God is everywhere. We are not 'separated' from God just because we are cast into outer darkness, other than the sense that we are kept from experiencing fellowship with God for that time. That fellowship is then restored at the great white throne. But we cannot escape His presence. There is nothing in the Bible that says a Christian can't be chastised after death. If we make our own subjective reasonings to be our arguments, God will refute them one by one in His word.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Will a Christian ever go to hell?

Of course not! Hell is not for the Christians, but for the other folks:

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. </font>[/QUOTE]Lake of fire isn't hell.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Lake of fire isn't hell.

Why is it than KJO fanatics that have never been to school and can not read either Hebrew or Greek, think that they are right and everyone else is wrong? See Dr. Bob’s thread spiritual beings, especially his comments about those spiritual beings that are waging a battle against God.

 

[James_Newman]

What is it that irks you more? That we will not bow down to greek? Or bow down to your superior intellect? You can believe anything you want, but you can't refute the argument at hand without going to another bible version. I believe the KJV is perfect, and I will stand by it. If your right and I'm wrong, I'm sure we can all laugh about it in heaven. If I'm right and your wrong, we may have 1000 yrs to debate whether or not were in Hades or Gehenna.

BTW, just because I never went to seminary, do not assume that all KJVO's have not. Nor should you assume that a seminary will ensure you have the proper view of doctrine any more than you should assume a public school education will give you a proper understanding of history. (or reading for that matter)

Why did paul not exhort the gentiles to learn Hebrew so they could fully understand the scriptures?

 

[James_Newman]

I had to go back just to make sure... but I put forth the notion that the lake of fire was before the throne of God on page 2, and no one bothered to even try to refute it. Is the sea of glass mingled with fire NOT the lake of fire? If not, show it from the word.

 

[Craigbythesea]

If I'm right and your wrong, we may have 1000 yrs to debate whether or not were in Hades or Gehenna.

 

[Craigbythesea]

BTW, just because I never went to seminary, do not assume that all KJVO's have not.

Perhaps one or two went to one of those seminaries that uses a pastor's basement for its campus, and has a smaller library than has my two-year-old grandson.

Nor should you assume that a seminary will ensure you have the proper view of doctrine any more than you should assume a public school education will give you a proper understanding of history. (or reading for that matter)

No, of course not, especially if it is a KJO “seminary” (actually, I believe that they call them Bible Institutes, a “school” where none of the faculty knows so much as what a college is).

And yes, there are some whacked-out seminaries, but there are also some excellent ones. And beside the seminaries, there are some fine universities where both the Old and News Testaments are extensively studied not only in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, but also in ancient translations into Latin, Syriac, Coptic, and Ethiopic. Can you name even one KJO who has even the academic qualifications to be admitted to one of these schools, let alone graduate with a doctorate from one of them?

KJOism is both a spiritual and an intellectual sickness that is so severe as to greatly handicap all those who suffer from it. And this same sickness so severely weakens both the spirit and the mind of those who are afflicted that they are susceptible even to the most foolish and demonic teachings, including those of Joey Faust.

Normal people, without this sickness, and with average intelligence and the determination to do so, can learn very much about the Bible without ever studying it in a seminary or university, and we have many such people on the message board.