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Will a Christian ever go to hell?
- Thread starter James_Newman
- Start date
James_Newman
New Member
What part of "he who believeth in me shall never die" will you negate when the dirt hits your coffin?
James_Newman
New Member
Then 'None'.
Jesus is talking about the eternal condemnation of the unsaved. What fraction of eternity is 1000 years? None.
Lacy Evans
New Member
The 1000 year kingdom is a conditional reward. (Very much like the "First born sonship" awarded in the OT.) it could be despised and forfieted. Esau was a son. (Heb 11:20) He received a son's blessing. But he forfieted his birthright because he was a profane person and a fornicator.
Can a Christian fornicate? If not, then why warn him not to . . . over and over again?
Just show me a verse that proves that Chastening is limited to this life. (Good luck)
Lacy
Can a Christian fornicate? If not, then why warn him not to . . . over and over again?
Just show me a verse that proves that Chastening is limited to this life. (Good luck)
Lacy
Hey all you "dividers"!
We have, doctrine, reproof, rebuke, instruction in righteouesness.
Q. Which of the above is NOT a part of the others.
A. When you reprove, you use Scripture to instruct in righteousness.
A. When you rebuke, you use Scripture to instruct in righteouesness.
A. when you instruct in righteouesness, you use Scriptural doctrine.
As the 'good' doc prof would say...DUH
Get A grip. Methinks ye hast learnt too much and yer head has imploded.
I echo Bro. Lacy, and James.
Just show us the verses which garauntee no Christian will suffer punishment during the Millenial Kingdom for his unfaithfulness and disobedience in this life.
As I said in an earlier post. You can't. You are all just being hard headed and holding desperately onto your pet doctrine of the JSOC as if it will be an awards ceremony. Like it is some kind of Little League banquet where everybody wins!
My brothers, "Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures."
In His service;
Jim
We have, doctrine, reproof, rebuke, instruction in righteouesness.
Q. Which of the above is NOT a part of the others.
A. When you reprove, you use Scripture to instruct in righteousness.
A. When you rebuke, you use Scripture to instruct in righteouesness.
A. when you instruct in righteouesness, you use Scriptural doctrine.
As the 'good' doc prof would say...DUH
Get A grip. Methinks ye hast learnt too much and yer head has imploded.
I echo Bro. Lacy, and James.
Just show us the verses which garauntee no Christian will suffer punishment during the Millenial Kingdom for his unfaithfulness and disobedience in this life.
As I said in an earlier post. You can't. You are all just being hard headed and holding desperately onto your pet doctrine of the JSOC as if it will be an awards ceremony. Like it is some kind of Little League banquet where everybody wins!
My brothers, "Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures."
In His service;
Jim
BTW;
We are not advocating that you can lose your salvation.
We are not advocating some kind of purgatory.
We are not advocating that you as a Christian burn forever.
We are not telling you this out of some kind of morbid joy in spreading fear.
We are not trying to be 'holier than thou'.
We simply would like to see Christians, especially in the western world, return to the Fear of the Lord, and make an impact on society.
We would like to see the men who pride themselves in their so-called Scriptural education to seriously consider the warnings of Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Matthew, Luke, Mark, and ask themselves..."Am I sure of my place in the Kingdom?
Paul was not.
In His service;
Jim
We are not advocating that you can lose your salvation.
We are not advocating some kind of purgatory.
We are not advocating that you as a Christian burn forever.
We are not telling you this out of some kind of morbid joy in spreading fear.
We are not trying to be 'holier than thou'.
We simply would like to see Christians, especially in the western world, return to the Fear of the Lord, and make an impact on society.
We would like to see the men who pride themselves in their so-called Scriptural education to seriously consider the warnings of Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, Matthew, Luke, Mark, and ask themselves..."Am I sure of my place in the Kingdom?
Paul was not.
In His service;
Jim
Yes you are and it is sadly a terrible error.
"He that believeth on him is not condemned" says nothing about eternity. It says CONDEMNATION is not gonna happen for believers.
Yet over and over (trying to deny it as purgatory, punishment, hell, fearmongering) you are saying that the same Lord Jesus who GAVE ME HIS WORD that I would not be CONDEMNED WILL condemn me to 1000 years of horrible damnation.
With young believers reading this BB all the time, to allow such error of CONDEMNATION to confuse.
"He that believeth on him is not condemned" says nothing about eternity. It says CONDEMNATION is not gonna happen for believers.
Yet over and over (trying to deny it as purgatory, punishment, hell, fearmongering) you are saying that the same Lord Jesus who GAVE ME HIS WORD that I would not be CONDEMNED WILL condemn me to 1000 years of horrible damnation.
With young believers reading this BB all the time, to allow such error of CONDEMNATION to confuse.
I have some questions. What is the book of life? Is this the Bible? Is the Bible the book that holds God's laws of life? One to eternal salvation? The other to eternal damnation? If God is the giver of life, and all are given life, and all are resurrected to life, isn't it the book of salvation and also damnation? If so, could it be possible that death and Hell being referred to is the eternally damned - one containing the souls/spirits (hell), and the other the resurrected bodies (lake of fire - to which was prepared for the devil and his angels who have bodies?), to which are not resurrected until the Great White throne Judgement? And do not the scriptures say, that all those who have not been washed in the blood of the lamb, who live by the law of works (damnation), instead of the law of Christ (salvation) will be judged according to their works? Maybe this is why the book of life is present at the Great White Throne Judgement? This is how I have always understood this. As this seems the only way that makes perfect sense. WE who are saved, are not condemned, and are washed by the blood of Christ. It is Christ's righteousness that covers our sins - past, present and future and therefore spiritually we are cleansed and when we are absent from the sinful flesh, are cleansed spirit is with the Lord? We are all still in the flesh, which is sin, and we long for our glorified bodies, but our spirits are cleansed. Just my thoughts.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
James_Newman
New Member
The bible also says that Christians will be judged for their works at the judgment seat of Christ. The book of life is, well, a book where God has written the names of everyone that will have life. It is entirely possible (likely I think) that there is more than one book of life. There is the book of life that we see at the great white throne.
Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There is something called the Lambs Book of Life, that one must be written in to enter the New Jerusalem.
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
I believe the holy city is present during the 1000 year reign of Christ, so there must be some book checking at the judgment seat of Christ, to see who will be present during this time. There may even be a book of life for this age containing the names of everyone who exists before the kingdom, who knows? God probably has a lot of books.
Daniel 7:10
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
This judgment is before the kingdom, got some books out.
Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I absolutely believe that eternal salvation is a gift, not of works. God is not going to cast a Christian who fails to overcome into the lake of fire for all eternity. I think this is talking about blotting their names out of the book of life that would allow them to have life during the 1000 years and reign with Christ in His kingdom. One book for reigning with Christ in His kingdom, in which your name is written for living obediently. Another book for eternal salvation at the great white throne judgment, and all you have to do to get in that book is believe.
Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There is something called the Lambs Book of Life, that one must be written in to enter the New Jerusalem.
Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
I believe the holy city is present during the 1000 year reign of Christ, so there must be some book checking at the judgment seat of Christ, to see who will be present during this time. There may even be a book of life for this age containing the names of everyone who exists before the kingdom, who knows? God probably has a lot of books.
Daniel 7:10
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
This judgment is before the kingdom, got some books out.
Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I absolutely believe that eternal salvation is a gift, not of works. God is not going to cast a Christian who fails to overcome into the lake of fire for all eternity. I think this is talking about blotting their names out of the book of life that would allow them to have life during the 1000 years and reign with Christ in His kingdom. One book for reigning with Christ in His kingdom, in which your name is written for living obediently. Another book for eternal salvation at the great white throne judgment, and all you have to do to get in that book is believe.
Thanks for the explanation. But I am still confused, as Christ's blood cleanses our spirit (which ultimately is FAITH), then how is it that we can go to hell, which is a spiritual place for those without FAITH? This is the problem I have. NO doubt, I believe that we will be judged by Christ at the judgement seat of Christ, but I believe this takes place in Heaven, after the rapture, and prior to our coming to earth with him for the millenial reign. I believe that the works our Lord refers to us of, are those things that He has given to us to do, and that if we obey we will recieve a reward and if we do things outside of His will, they will be burned up. The part I also have a problem with, is where Jesus says that it is better to enter into life maimed than to enter hell in the whole body, wasn't necessarily speaking to the church. I see this as Jesus speaking to the Jews, prior to the cross, and prior to the knowledge of the age of Grace. God had given Israel time to accept Jesus Christ as their King and Messiah, and Jesus Christ was preaching the kingdom to them, not salvation in many parts of the gospels. These things still apply to us, and are beneficial to us, but I do believe that we cannot go to hell, since Jesus payed the full penalty for our sins, and has washed our spirits clean. Hell is a spiritual abode, that is meant for those without FAITH. This is why we see that it was once two parts: one with Lazarus being tormented with flames for UNBELIEF, and Abraham and the saints in BELIEF. When Jesus ascended into heaven, he took with him all those who were in paradise. This much we do know. Abraham, was/is the father of FAITH. It was by Abraham's FAITH, not works, that he was found righteous. I believe that christians will be judged according to what we have done for Christ, but I do not believe that we are ordained to hell to be punished. Then we would ALL go to hell. None would then be in heaven to return with our Lord as in Rev.19 and Zech. 10.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
James_Newman
New Member
Hell is a holding place, a prison. Faith is belief, as you said. Well, there are a lot of things in the bible to believe. You believe there is one God, you do well. The devils believe and tremble. You believe that Jesus paid the price for your sins by shedding His precious blood on the cross, you get eternal life. You believe that he not only paid the price for your sins, but he also died to give you power to overcome sin in this life? Then walk like you believe it. Faith without works is dead. Christians spiritualize faith into some magic power that encompasses all situations and floats us into the kingdom without having to deny our flesh.
Christ told us to pick up a cross and follow Him. He didn't tell us to do this to be saved in eternity. Thats a gift. He said if we love Him, keep His commandments. He didn't say to do this to be saved, thats by faith alone, not of works. Before we were born again, we could not do anything to please God. We were not even 'alive', how could we expect to do good works? God has given us the gift of life, and now we are to suffer for Him in this life, in order to obtain a glorious inheritance it in the next.
Mark 10
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18
29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
The world to come is the thousand year kingdom. Eternity starts after that, on the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Christ told us to pick up a cross and follow Him. He didn't tell us to do this to be saved in eternity. Thats a gift. He said if we love Him, keep His commandments. He didn't say to do this to be saved, thats by faith alone, not of works. Before we were born again, we could not do anything to please God. We were not even 'alive', how could we expect to do good works? God has given us the gift of life, and now we are to suffer for Him in this life, in order to obtain a glorious inheritance it in the next.
Mark 10
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
Luke 18
29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.
The world to come is the thousand year kingdom. Eternity starts after that, on the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Good post. I couldn't agree more, except possibly for your own interpretation of some of the verses that you quoted.
The world to come does not necessarily refer to the millennial kingdom. It could simply mean eternity, God's world to come. It may also refer to the fact that God has promised to make a new earth and a new heaven, about which little is said in the Bible. But there is no indication that it must refer to the Millennial Kingdom as you infer.
The world to come in the verses that you quoted is eternity, not the Kingdom age.
DHK
The world to come does not necessarily refer to the millennial kingdom. It could simply mean eternity, God's world to come. It may also refer to the fact that God has promised to make a new earth and a new heaven, about which little is said in the Bible. But there is no indication that it must refer to the Millennial Kingdom as you infer.
The world to come in the verses that you quoted is eternity, not the Kingdom age.
DHK
Yes, but God has also told us that God does not allow us to be tempted more than we are able. I believe, that if you are truly saved, your works will show and there is absolutely no punishment. We can still sin in this life, and after being saved, but the whole essense of our Faith is that we Love God with all our heart, soul and strength (the first commandment) and the first two commandments obeyed, hangs all the law, and when someone loves another, more than anything, or even themselves, they automatically do those things pleasing to or for that loved one. If we fall, God is good to show us, that we may repent of it. HELL IS NOT FOR THE SAVED. This is a false doctrine.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
James_Newman
New Member
Well, this is my last post for the night. Let me just say this, Michelle. You believe the KJV is the perfect word of God. This doctrine is no where else found more clearly than in the King James, primarily because it does not muddy up the water with 7 different names for the same place. Gehenna = hell. Hades = hell. Tartarus? Hell. Sheol? Hell. At times this may refer to simply the grave, and other times it may be a little hotter and deeper, but it never is referring to the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the final non-resting place of the unsaved. Why is there a hell in the first place? Why is there a judgment for unbelievers after believers have already been separated out from them and crowned? And who is it that we see in Rev 21 getting their tears wiped away?
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
This is after the kingdom. What Christian will be reigning with Christ for a thousand years and weeping? (and dare I say, gnashing teeth?)
It is not a doctrine that feels good to the flesh, I guarantee. I've kicked against it, I've tried to disprove it, I've tried to stop believing in God!(That didn't work out real well) But we are going to stand before Him, and be judged.
2 Corinthians 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
God bless, Michelle. I pray that I might be accounted worthy, and that I might see you there being crowned by Him.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
This is after the kingdom. What Christian will be reigning with Christ for a thousand years and weeping? (and dare I say, gnashing teeth?)
It is not a doctrine that feels good to the flesh, I guarantee. I've kicked against it, I've tried to disprove it, I've tried to stop believing in God!(That didn't work out real well) But we are going to stand before Him, and be judged.
2 Corinthians 5
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
God bless, Michelle. I pray that I might be accounted worthy, and that I might see you there being crowned by Him.
--------------------------------------------------
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
This is after the kingdom. What Christian will be reigning with Christ for a thousand years and weeping? (and dare I say, gnashing teeth?)
---------------------------------------------------
Because during the millenial reign, the church is in their glorified bodies, and where our Lord is, there we also are. We are the wife of Christ during the millenial reign. Scriptures are clear about this. Those dwelling on earth, when Christ returns (us with him) do not yet have resurrected bodies. This is the kingdom that God had promised to Israel, and if you look further into Revelation, you will see that God has fulfilled his promise to Abraham at the end of it - that they measured the sands of the seas. You see, the millenial reign of Christ is a fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham and all of Israel. Not for their sake, but for HIS HOLY NAMES SAKE. The millenial reign has nothing to do with the christian, except for the fact that we are WITH CHRIST as HIS WIFE and have no need for tears - as we have entered into his joy. This is the wonderful truth! THe second death, is the resurrection of ALL, those dwelling on earth, and those in Hell, to be cast into the Lake of fire, and those from earth to the eternal life. WE have much better promises than Israel! Scriptures say this.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
This is after the kingdom. What Christian will be reigning with Christ for a thousand years and weeping? (and dare I say, gnashing teeth?)
---------------------------------------------------
Because during the millenial reign, the church is in their glorified bodies, and where our Lord is, there we also are. We are the wife of Christ during the millenial reign. Scriptures are clear about this. Those dwelling on earth, when Christ returns (us with him) do not yet have resurrected bodies. This is the kingdom that God had promised to Israel, and if you look further into Revelation, you will see that God has fulfilled his promise to Abraham at the end of it - that they measured the sands of the seas. You see, the millenial reign of Christ is a fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham and all of Israel. Not for their sake, but for HIS HOLY NAMES SAKE. The millenial reign has nothing to do with the christian, except for the fact that we are WITH CHRIST as HIS WIFE and have no need for tears - as we have entered into his joy. This is the wonderful truth! THe second death, is the resurrection of ALL, those dwelling on earth, and those in Hell, to be cast into the Lake of fire, and those from earth to the eternal life. WE have much better promises than Israel! Scriptures say this.
Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
That is the point , sir.
We are not advocating condemnation in hell for eternity for believers as you here seem to imply. You question demonstrates that you do not yet understand our position.
If I may add another point.
In reading your many posts in other threads as well as this one; I understand you are a believer in the rapture for believers? Nevermind when it occurs, just that it will and that you know you will be a part of it. Is this correct?
If so, then I also understand that you know it is not the resurrection of the last day? Correct?
May I draw your attention to John 6:39-40. Jesus is here telling His disciples that He will raise up believers at the last day. Revelation describes this last day for us. Rev 20:11-15. It is our contention, sir, that just as Jesus said, there will be believers at this "Last Day".
Jesus has promised that all who believe will not be condemned, but will be raised up to life "at the last day".
We have never said otherwise.
But you yourself know that this is not the only resurrection. Nor the only Judgement.
We contend and submit that there is a "certain fearful looking for of judgement" for the disobedient. Not for the obedient.
As you yourself know very well. On any given subject one must consult "the whole counsel of God". And that one must stick to the subject at hand lest you get all mixed up.
I hope this helps you a little bit.
In His service;
Jim