Will a Christian ever go to hell?

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
We are not advocating condemnation in hell for eternity for believers as you here seem to imply.

Jim, ARE you saying that certain believers (elect children of God) WILL BE CONDEMNED TO HELL for 1 minute or 1 day or 1000 years?

BTW, don't equivocate on "Condemn" as if that is a negative term. Greek = krino, to place by decree, judged, sentenced, damn, condemn.

Will God condemn a born-again child of His to hell for ANY amount of time?

Yes or No, and it will tell me whether I "understand" you belief.

 

[michelle]

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Why is there a hell in the first place? Why is there a judgment for unbelievers after believers have already been separated out from them and crowned?
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It is the spiritual abode for those who have died in UNBELIEF and disobediance, and they are awaiting the resurrection to eternal damnation - the Lake of Fire. These will recieve bodies, but go into the lake of fire in them. Those who are saved, their spirits are cleansed and are with the Lord already here on earth, but when our flesh dies, our spirit REMAINS with our Lord. It is our glorified bodies that we await, and that comes at the rapture, to which is ONLY FOR THE SAINTS, those of the past up until the time Jesus calls us up, and those who are alive and remain shall also be caught up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air, and there we shall forever be with the Lord. Then is the Judgement Seat of Christ, IN HEAVEN, prior to the millenial kingdom. We are NEVER going to Hell and we CANNOT if we are SAVED. One cannot go into heaven and be in the presence of the Lord, if they are not covered by the blood of Christ's righteousness.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by michelle:
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Why is there a hell in the first place? Why is there a judgment for unbelievers after believers have already been separated out from them and crowned?
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It is the spiritual abode for those who have died in UNBELIEF and disobediance, and they are awaiting the resurrection to eternal damnation - the Lake of Fire. These will recieve bodies, but go into the lake of fire in them. Those who are saved, their spirits are cleansed and are with the Lord already here on earth, but when our flesh dies, our spirit REMAINS with our Lord. It is our glorified bodies that we await, and that comes at the rapture, to which is ONLY FOR THE SAINTS, those of the past up until the time Jesus calls us up, and those who are alive and remain shall also be caught up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air, and there we shall forever be with the Lord. Then is the Judgement Seat of Christ, IN HEAVEN, prior to the millenial kingdom. We are NEVER going to Hell and we CANNOT if we are SAVED. One cannot go into heaven and be in the presence of the Lord, if they are not covered by the blood of Christ's righteousness.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

You are absolutely right Michelle. (Boy, writing that feels good ).

If a Christian who was bought with the blood of Christ can go to hell then Jesus' sacrifice was not sufficient to save us from our sins.

The doctrine being espoused here is warmed over RCC purgatory. Either Christ paid for our sins or we have to pay for them.

Scripture teaches that Christ paid for them and that even eternity does not allow enough time for us to pay for them ourselves.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Yes you are and it is sadly a terrible error.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned" says nothing about eternity. It says CONDEMNATION is not gonna happen for believers.

Yet over and over (trying to deny it as purgatory, punishment, hell, fearmongering) you are saying that the same Lord Jesus who GAVE ME HIS WORD that I would not be CONDEMNED WILL condemn me to 1000 years of horrible damnation.

With young believers reading this BB all the time, to allow such error of CONDEMNATION to confuse.

Bob, are you deliberately ignoring my question? What does 'shall never die' mean? If someone dies, does that mean that Jesus is a liar?

 

[michelle]

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Scripture teaches that Christ paid for them and that even eternity does not allow enough time for us to pay for them ourselves.
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Yes very true. (feels good saying this to you also - ha ha ha ) I think many are not understanding that if one is truly saved, they will obey their Lord. This is why Jesus said, if you love me, you will keep my commandments. If we are truly saved, we will truly love the Lord, for this is the first commandment, that the Lord said would be written upon the believers heart, and He is able to keep us from falling. Jesus Christ is the founder and finisher of our FAITH. IT is Him who works in and through us. It is not of works, lest any one should boast, I think applies to this, as well as Faith without works is dead. Whose works are they? They are the works of Christ.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by michelle:
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Why is there a hell in the first place? Why is there a judgment for unbelievers after believers have already been separated out from them and crowned?
--------------------------------------------------


It is the spiritual abode for those who have died in UNBELIEF and disobediance, and they are awaiting the resurrection to eternal damnation - the Lake of Fire. These will recieve bodies, but go into the lake of fire in them. Those who are saved, their spirits are cleansed and are with the Lord already here on earth, but when our flesh dies, our spirit REMAINS with our Lord. It is our glorified bodies that we await, and that comes at the rapture, to which is ONLY FOR THE SAINTS, those of the past up until the time Jesus calls us up, and those who are alive and remain shall also be caught up together with them, to meet the Lord in the air, and there we shall forever be with the Lord. Then is the Judgement Seat of Christ, IN HEAVEN, prior to the millenial kingdom. We are NEVER going to Hell and we CANNOT if we are SAVED. One cannot go into heaven and be in the presence of the Lord, if they are not covered by the blood of Christ's righteousness.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

You are absolutely right Michelle. (Boy, writing that feels good ).

If a Christian who was bought with the blood of Christ can go to hell then Jesus' sacrifice was not sufficient to save us from our sins.

The doctrine being espoused here is warmed over RCC purgatory. Either Christ paid for our sins or we have to pay for them.

Scripture teaches that Christ paid for them and that even eternity does not allow enough time for us to pay for them ourselves. </font>[/QUOTE]Of course writing it feels good. That doesnt make it true. To say that this doctrine is purgatory just shows that you don't understand purgatory, or why it is unscriptural in the first place. So the RCC taught that someone might be punished after death, big deal? They also taught that we should pray for them to get them out faster, and have masses said in order to speed their exit out of purgatory. Purchasing indulgences was another option. These are the reasons purgatory was rejected, then it was just decided to chuck the whole thing, and believe that Christians have nothing to fear at the judgment seat. This is contrary to every ounce of scripture about the judgment seat, and denys that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. If you do not fear God, you have no wisdom.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by michelle:


Yes very true. (feels good saying this to you also - ha ha ha ) I think many are not understanding that if one is truly saved, they will obey their Lord.

This is a satanic lie, Michelle. Christians can and do disobey their Lord every day. You are looking to your works to save you? Or do you believe that the blood of Christ truly covers your sins?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
BTW;
We are not advocating that you can lose your salvation.

No. You seem to be advancing the notion that salvation in Christ is not complete. You basically deny that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us as an act of pure grace.

We are not advocating some kind of purgatory.

Frankly, that is exactly what you are advocating. Purgatory is a place that RCC devises for Christians to pay for sins that weren't paid for by works and ritual during life. You are saying that Christians that fail to meet some undefined standard will be punished for their sins for 1000 years before being welcomed into heaven.

We are not advocating that you as a Christian burn forever.

Again, you are advocating the idea that Christ's suffering was not sufficient to cover all of our sins. But rather that we must "burn" for awhile to pay for them.

We are not telling you this out of some kind of morbid joy in spreading fear.... We simply would like to see Christians, especially in the western world, return to the Fear of the Lord, and make an impact on society.

Two notes: First, your first statement contradicts the second. You say you aren't spreading fear but then acknowledge that your objective is to strike fear in Christians.

Second, no matter what your motives are you cannot legitimately justify the ends by the means. It is never acceptable to do wrong in order to achieve a "good" end.

I too pray that Christians will be revived and fear God again. But that comes from drawing nearer to God... not by being threatened with hell. If one draws near to God, they can't help but be overcome with reverent fear and recognize His right to be Lord.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by James Newman:
You are looking to your works to save you? Or do you believe that the blood of Christ truly covers your sins?

The blood of Christ covers our sins therefore we do not have to pay for them again in hell.

This is a simple equation James. Either Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for our sin or it wasn't. Either He paid all or we still have to pay in whole or in part.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by James Newman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
You are absolutely right Michelle. (Boy, writing that feels good ).

Of course writing it feels good.</font>[/QUOTE] Michelle is probably aware that I was referring to our extended disagreements on Bible versions. Most of my limited time on the BB is spent there since that along with easy believism are the chief problems in fundamentalism today.

That doesnt make it true.

No. The sufficiency of Christ's propitiation makes it true.

To say that this doctrine is purgatory just shows that you don't understand purgatory, or why it is unscriptural in the first place.

It is unscriptural because it teaches that people must pay for their own sins either through works or through punishment in purgatory.

You fill in different details but the main premise is the same. You deny that Christ paid for all of our sins and that some Christians must pay for part of their own in hell.

 

[James_Newman]

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

What does this mean?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by James Newman:
This is contrary to every ounce of scripture about the judgment seat, and denys that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. If you do not fear God, you have no wisdom.

Fear of God and fear of hell are not synonomous.

The fear of God results from the recognition of the whole of His character and attributes, not simply the fact that He will condemn some to hell.

I pray that we will fear hell for the sake of the lost who will go there. I pray that we will fear God for the sake of His glory.

 

[michelle]

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This is a satanic lie, Michelle. Christians can and do disobey their Lord every day. You are looking to your works to save you? Or do you believe that the blood of Christ truly covers your sins?
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Wow, I didn't realize this. When I was first saved, I studied the word of God fervently on my own, and had not yet found a church for 3 years, and this is what the Lord has shown me from the scriptures, and my study of them. I do not think that God is really clear about what rewards are given or taken away are, but the FACT IS that our sins are ABSOLUTELY PAID FOR 100% by Jesus Christ. Now, the works we do AFTER our salvation that follow our salvation, are not of our OWN WORKS, but as SACRIFICES to our Lord because we love HIM and strive to be in HIS WILL and DO HIS WILL. THis is what we will be rewarded for, and have things taken away. What those are, scripture is not clear. But, if we are truly saved, there is no sin that we have, do, or can committ, that Jesus Christ has not already paid for. Otherwise, we would not be able to recieve our glorified bodies at the rapture. If we died, we ALL would AUTOMATICALLY go to Hell, which is contrary to what the scriptures say, that to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. We who are saved will REMAIN with our Lord until the day that we recieve our glorified bodies, to which is the blessed hope of the church. There is no equation for hell in this truth. Only for those who are not saved. If we are truly saved, then we most definately have a fear of the Lord and because of this, strive to please him and obey him, and sin no more. Because we are in the sinful flesh, we are tempted, and sometimes can fall, but the Lord chastens us and corrects us, and brings us to repentance, so that we are found without spot and without blemish and as being perfect as our Father in Heaven is Perfect. We cannot do this of our own selves. It is the Lord who convicts us and works through and in us. If we are not showing forth these things, we are showing that we are not truly saved, and most definately will go to hell, if we do recieve salvation. Do you own yourself? Or have you been bought with a great price? What is the cross, and why is it the Lord said we must pick up the cross and follow him? If we are truly saved, we will follow him, and there is not condemnation. If we are not saved we better get saved.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by Scott J:
This is a simple equation James. Either Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for our sin or it wasn't. Either He paid all or we still have to pay in whole or in part.

Allow me to "muddy up" the question if I may. Do you (Scott, Michelle, Bob, et. al.) believe that God chastens his children. Yes or no? Now that is a simple question.

If chastening in this life is not contrary to grace, (Christ paid it all, so why chasten us for sins already paid for?) why would chastening in the next (If there be such a thing) be contrary to that same grace.

We are not talking about atonement here at all. We are taking an honest look at what the Bible repeatedly says will happen to a saved person if he fornicates, if he rebels, if he walks in disobedience. He will not inherit the kingdom!

Rom 11:18-24
1Co 6:9,10
Gal 5:21
Eph 5:5
1Th 2:12
2Th 1:5
2 Tim 2:10-13; 4:1-8
Heb 12:8

That is clear doctrine. So where do they go if they miss the kingdom? That's clear too.

Lacy

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Jim, ARE you saying that certain believers (elect children of God) WILL BE CONDEMNED TO HELL for 1 minute or 1 day or 1000 years?

You almost hit the nail on the head here. Only certain believers ARE elect, and they will NOT be condemned, because they will be reigning with Christ for 1000 years.

2Peter 1
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I ask again, if you believe in the eternal security of a believer, and the sacrifice of Christ was sufficient, then how can we be told to work for our salvation after we have been purged from our old sins??? What does this mean?

Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Ro 8:1 -
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Jim, ARE you saying that certain believers (elect children of God) WILL BE CONDEMNED TO HELL for 1 minute or 1 day or 1000 years?

Other than the degree, what is the difference between this condemnation and the "condemnation" for those who were killed and made sick by God in Corinth for not discerning the Lord's body?

There are "those who are in Christ Jesus but DO walk after the flesh, and not after the Spirit". Otherwise the Bible wouldn't devote verse after verse to warn us (OSAS, eternally secure, bought by the blood, Christians) to be good or else!

lacy

 

[michelle]

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If chastening in this life is not contrary to grace, (Christ paid it all, so why chasten us for sins already paid for?) why would chastening in the next (If there be such a thing) be contrary to that same grace.
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To bring us to repentance of that sin. Jesus is our Priest in Heaven, ever making intercession for the saints. Since we are still in the flesh, we are capable to sin, however, God will bring us to the repentance that Jesus Christ payed the full penalty for, and to which his shed blood atones for. If we are not showing forth repentance in our lives, and striving not to sin, this is good indication we are not really saved. When we truly believe that Jesus Christ paid our debt, we can and are at peace with this. Jesus Christ said, I will NEVER leave you, nor FORSAKE you. If we are truly blood bought, born again christians, we will not strive to sin. Willful sin, would indicate we are not truly saved. If the Holy Spirit of God dwells in us, and He owns us, and Has rule over our lives, then we will follow him. If we are chastised, it is to bring us to repentance, and ask the Lord forgiveness in this life. WE are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise until that day we recieve our glorified bodies:

Ephesians 1

12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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That is clear doctrine. So where do they go if they miss the kingdom? That's clear too.

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It means they go to HELL and are NOT SAVED.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

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10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

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If we are truly saved, and have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, how then can we fail, if Jesus Christ is the founder and finisher of our faith? Before I was saved, I believed in Jesus, and never doubted who He was/is. However I was not saved, as I had not yet repented of my sins and recieved him as my Saviour, and accepted His sacrifice. I believed, yet, I was not yet saved. Hell is not for the SAVED.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by James Newman:
Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

What does this mean?

Read it in context.

The text is primarily and originally written to the "Hebrews" who were being challenged to leave the old covenant.

The chapter begins with a description of the old system and declares it insufficient except for a "remembrance". The writer then shows that Christ fulfills the need for a sacrifice as prophesied.

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

The sacrifice of Christ was completely sufficient for all of our sins.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

There is no more offering for our sin. Chastisement is not an offering for sin but rather a process by which God conforms the believer to the image of the Son per Romans 8. For a Christian to go to hell could serve no other purpose than to pay for sins. Our continued sinfulness on earth is directly related to our flesh... which we separate from at death.

The text you cite deals directly with the fact that Christ ended the system by which men could show obedience and faithfulness to God through sacrifice. If the Jew (or us) rejected God's final sacrifice, there were no others to be had.

Lastly, the last two verses demonstrate that Jews who had heard the gospel were the primary objects of the discourse.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The Jews were being confronted with the end of the Mosaic priestly system. If they withdrew to that system, they were drawing back into perdition. If they accepted the sacrifice of Christ, they believed to the saving of the soul.