convicted1
Guest
I know the answer, but I thought I'd ask this to go along with the "non-elect" thread. What are your thoughts?
Personally, the obvious answer is a resounding "NO"!!
Personally, the obvious answer is a resounding "NO"!!
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Will an "elect" person die lost?
- Thread starter convicted1
- Start date
Oh ok,...your correct & he cant loose his or her salvation either...cool isn't it.
convicted1
Guest
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Using the Biblical definition of lost, yes, happens quite often. Many, if not most of God's sheep spend their lives wandering lost in the wilderness.
you'll probably have apoplexy (in surprise) at my answer, but the answer is "yes".
the elect is eternally secure in Christ, no one and nothing can take away his soul from the Father's clutches, but, in the gospel sense, he can die lost.
1st, God's elect is all over the world (which is why God SO loved the world.....)..they can be found in prehistoric US, historic US, and post-history US (whenever that may be) and you can apply that chronology to all continents, sub-continents, islands, islets, etc., and to every tribe, tongue, and nation.
2nd, God's elect is in all stages of physiological and psychological growth, that is, embryos, fetuses, infants, child, adolescence, adults, imbeciles, idiots, etc.
3rd, God's elect were elected to glory (heaven, to be with God), not for the earth, or the world, therefore their spiritual, moral, theological, theistic or atheistic bents were never under consideration, They were elected based on God's sovereign right to bestow mercy on whom He will regardless of their earthly backgrounds.
which brings us to why the elect can be gospelly lost.
the elect may die in utter ignorance of his Savior (but knowledge of His Savior was never a requirement for eternal salvation;
that death in ignorance may be because of certain circumstances in his life: tribal, geographical, political, chronological.
the elect may die in rebellion against the word, rebellion manifested in the same way as those in Hebrews who were said "impossible to renew again unto repentance".
but let me give you the exercise from this point on.
In how many other ways can a soul elect unto eternal salvation be gospelly lost here in time ?
DrJamesAch
New Member
The problem with this is it is asking the wrong question. Can an elected person person be lost? YES but that depends on how you define election, and that is wherein the problem lies. It's an issue of what election is and what it is not.
I will use the illustration of a mother with 10 children who adopts a plan to get her kids to clean their rooms [this is for analogy sake to describe election, not the works of cleaning a room].
Mom pre-plans that if her children will clean their room, they will get ice cream, and $5. Those who do not clean their room are grounded. In order to get the ice cream, they must clean their room. Five of the children cleaned their room and thus inherited the blessings of the ice cream and the $5. The other 5 did not and were grounded.
Later, the mom becomes generous and makes the same offer to the entire neighborhood (or, the Gentiles, if you will).
The "election" here is the plan that mom made ahead of time of the conditions, results, and consequences. God has made a plan ahead of time for the world to receive and inheritance. The results of a person who comes to Christ by faith, is that they receive eternal life because that was the plan ahead of time. Those who believe are also given different gifts to edify the body of Christ. Some do get all the same gifts, and some gifts are specific to a particular individual.
The entire plans that God has for each person are what constitute election. Election does not force a person to believe. Election is what describes the destiny of a person ONCE THEY BELIEVE. Election is not a FUNCTIONAL part of salvation, but DESCRIPTIVE of the inheritance that God planned ahead of time for ANYONE to receive that receives Christ by faith.
This is why a Calvinist can not answer the question "how do you know YOU are elect?" because they have a fundamentally different view of election. If election is a PRESCRIPTIVE and FUNCTIONAL part of salvation, there's no way to answer that question. If election is DESCRIPTIVE of your inheritance, then you can answer the question because election describes what is received when a person meets the conditions for salvation. When a person can honestly claim that they have acknowledge their sinful state, the penalty that Christ paid for sin which was conquered through His death and resurrection, and by turning from self to Christ in faith, that person HAS REPENTED and has met the conditions for salvation and can point to the meeting of those conditions as evidence that they KNOW they are saved because it is based on an objective standard that God requires for salvation. Romans 10:9-13, Acts 8:37, 1 Cor 15:1-4.
So a person can have a destiny that was planned by God which is to become adopted (Romans 8:15), but then refuse to believe in Christ. Again, election is descriptive of the destiny that God planned for those who trust Christ as Saviour. When you understand this, you will understand verse like Revelation 3:5 where it appears one can lose their salvation. Election is like a living will that describes our inheritance and what God intended to be received when our old man dies and is crucified with Christ. Those who have received the blessings of that adoption are called elect.
The question shouldn't be whether an "elect" person can be lost, because a person only becomes truly elect in the descriptive sense of the word when they have met the conditions of salvation and thus fulfilling God's election for them. A person can reject their election, but a person who has received Christ, and thus received their inheritance as described by election can never lose their salvation. And because it is an inheritance that was obtained through the work of Christ alone, a believer can not maintain salvation by works (contrary to what Arminianism teaches).
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In your analogy you have the mother "electing" all of her children but only the ones who work for their reward will receive it.
If we carry your analogy over to real life, God elects everyone but only the ones who work for their reward will receive it. That is works salvation and allows no room for grace.
You're also denying the definition of elect. It means to choose, not some sort of "system".
If we carry your analogy over to real life, God elects everyone but only the ones who work for their reward will receive it. That is works salvation and allows no room for grace.
You're also denying the definition of elect. It means to choose, not some sort of "system".
LOL :tongue3: In an earlier P.M. he explained your "works" complaint is precisely where his analogy breaks down...All analogies eventually break-down. But that's not the part which matters in his analogy.
The key point of his analogy, you haven't mentioned. And that is, specifically, what the definition of "election" actually is.
editted to add: actually, he also already covered this above-if you read what he wrote: I'll quote him lodging against his own analogy the complaint you make here:
Maybe more than sheer perusal but actually READING what he said may avoid superflous criticisms.
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Yes I did. I said elect means chosen.
eklektos ek-lek-tos'
from 1586; select; by implication, favorite:--chosen, elect.
I think you miss his argument completely. See my edit for instance.
It's not that he has a different Dictionary definition than you do. Obviously, the English Dictionary definition of a translated Greek word is something I have no doubt you share in common with him.
Whatever his possible errors are.......I'm pretty sure they DON'T consist of having a different Webster's edition as everyone else. (or Strong's)
Earlier PM? I haven't received a PM. I have no idea what you're talking about.
:thumbsup: No....it was in a P.M.... so I guess not indeed :laugh: I was trying to get him to explain what he meant by "election" in his earlier thread, so I asked him in a P.M.:type: It was a P.M. I got from him
I mentioned that to demonstrate that he is NOT trying to convince anyone that works is critical for "election".
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Ventriloquist defending the dummy? Or fellow troll cohort?
The later in the day it gets the more inebriated he becomes and at some point he gets his wires crossed and forgets who he was at the time, or which one did what. For real.
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DrJamesAch
New Member
The analogy wasn't meant to carry over into "real life" that is made clear in the very description of the analogy:
Whether you choose 'election' or 'chosen': CHOSEN TO WHAT? Calvinism misinterprets "chosen" as "YOU are chosen to salvation" instead of how the Bible properly emphasizes that "you are chosen TO SALVATION" 2 Thess 2:13. If you think that the emphasis is on the person in election rather than on the plan, then explain how a person can have their name blotted out of the book of life in Revelation 3:5. Whether choosing or election, neither definition is a FUNCTIONAL element of salvation, it is clearly descriptive as I described in detail above.
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." 1 Peter 1:2
Calvinism is confusing other elements of salvation that ARE functional (justification, sanctification, glorification) with election which obscures the purpose and definition of election.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Hmmmmm...interesting. I believe you're onto something.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I hope I understand you correctly.
You believe faith in Christ is not necessary for salvation?
Theologically speaking The Elect are commonly referred to as those whom God has predestined unto eternal life and who come to Christ by faith during their lifetime. The 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith even deals with those elect individuals who are unable to outwardly respond to the Gospel. These may include infants dying in infancy and those with cognitive impairment that prevent an outward response to the Gospel:
Can an elect person come to faith in Christ after death? No. That is Open Theism and is a heresy and a travesty. Such belief lacks even a scintilla of Biblical support.
Can an elect person come to faith in Christ after death? No. That is Open Theism and is a heresy and a travesty. Such belief lacks even a scintilla of Biblical support.
please qualify what you mean when you say "salvation".
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
A person goes to heaven instead of hell for all eternity.