Featured Will ANY of God's Elect "Miss Heaven"?

I don't.

I was reflecting upon the post that AIC made which he said, "None of those who choose to place thier (their) faith in Jesus Christ for eternal salvation will be lost."

I was, as you post, saying that the faith is not a human faith, but that which God through Christ authors and finishes.

 

Aged man....

Its because from the very beginning mankind has been given the capacity to make reasoned moral choices, as opposed to the instinct driven choices that animals make.

Adam and eve were given a choice to NOT eat of the tree, or to chose to eat of it. They chose to eat of it on thier own. And mankind has been making choices ever since. Some good...bringing blessings, and some bad, bringing hardship, chastisement, and hell, if they dont come to thier senses.

Well, of course. Satan cant do it.

And God grants the gift of regeneration and eternal life to us when we sincerely chose to place our faith in Christ. At that point we are given, as a gift, the unimaginable gift of Christs righteousness.

Of course.

Becuse that is all we have to offer, brother. We are sinners. But the good news is that we have been given the gift of Christs rightiousness.

Losing salvation is an impossiblity. We are granted the gift of eternal life at the moment we place our faith in Christ and are regenerated.


And I appreciate your civil, well mannered conversation

 

I know this is a complicated concept for you to understand, …but his opinion based on his interpretations. A true systematic theologian bases his interpretations on the Bible in whole, you base your interpretations off a poor attempt to box-in and explain those scriptures from what others have philosophized while trying to force-fit a man-made doctrine, namely the Determinist' agenda of 1689 LBC who are followers of Calvin. *That does not make you a true systematic theologian who bases his interetations from the Bible but a follower of the traditions of men. Thus, you have been spoiled and are blinded to the truth and as an immature child you have been carried away on the wind of a false doctrine and decieved.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
(Col 2:8)

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(Eph 4:14)

There's some Biblical truth you would do well to stop ignoring. :thumbsup:

 

God did author the faith of man and He will finish it although that faith has to be placed in Christ trusting He will give us Salvation. Galations 2:16 All men have a measure of faith. (Rom 12:3) I believe it's enough to motovate the man to surrender his rebellion if the man responds to the gospel.
MB

 

Can't both camps of this debate realise that when we all get to heaven, arms will ask jesus if they freely chose Him, cals did God elect them by His will, and he will answer both of them "YES"

 

This is true as described in Romans. Humans have a "human righteousness" that can never attain unto Godly Righteousness, nor does Romans teach that any "reasoned moral choices" are acceptable to God. In fact the Scriptures teach just the opposite.

I would like to suggest a bit of change in your thinking about human versus animals.

When I was young, I too thought that animals functioned upon a instinctive driven living only. However, the latest research has found that great moral and immoral behaviors are just a prevalent in the animal kingdom. Animals rape, murder, steal, deceive and all the other attributes that unregenerate man may display - even perversions. They have rational thinking capacities that are being explored and new discoveries are made almost daily concerning what used to be thought/taught and what actually occurs.


It is fast becoming apparent that the only true difference in humankind and the rest of the animal kingdom is the "image" of God which is not any human characteristic, for all are also imaged in the other animals of the kingdom. The ONLY characteristic that is NOT found in the others is that of a living soul. The breathe of God delivered that into man unlike any other being created. That is the image of God.

The Eden experience is the only time the Scriptures record a "free will" choice made by humankind. From the moment Adam took of the fruit, humankind choices were failure after failure. When confronted by God, the first was avoidance, then blame. That is the pattern of every human that has ever lived. All choices ultimately fail. All building and creative works start decay from the moment they are formed by mankind. Can the unregenerate make "good" decisions. Certainly, but ultimately all decisions are corrupt. Not one character in the Scriptures lived without sin, and although some made great human decisions, and attempted to attain unto some level of righteousness, the Scriptures clearly teach that none made the righteousness of God, that all failed, that all man's righteousness is nothing to God, just stinky and dirty - filled with excrement.

Here it is very easy to talk past one another.

First it is not "our faith." Each regenerate is given the "measure of faith" it is appointed by God and the person does not choose Christ but is placed "in Christ."

Second, "without that faith it is impossible to please him, for those who come to him must first believe that He is and that He is the rewarder of those diligently who seek Him."

The obvious question is who seeks Him?

Only the believers. The Scriptures teach it like this, "For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man (human spirit/faith) which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God." (1 Cor. 2:11) Here is both the limit of man's ability and the ultimate responsibility of God.

For one to consider that a human generated faith must be expressed to attain to Godly righteousness, violates the Scriptures of Hebrews when the writer is expressing the priestly appointment. Remember all believers are heirs of God and priests.

Here is what Hebrews states:

Heb 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
2 Who can have compassion on the ignorant, and on them that are out of the way; for that he himself also is compassed with infirmity.
3 And by reason hereof he ought, as for the people, so also for himself, to offer for sins.
4 And no man takes this honor unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. ​

Here is Paul's offering from Galatians:

Ga 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. ​

So, the Scriptures point to two areas:

one - faith is not of human generated ability
two - heir ship is appointed by the call of God.​

Perhaps an observer reading this thread might need a bit more clarification here, so I would give two responses.

The first is to the unbeliever, the unregenerate, one who is not yet "born from above."

The Scriptures teach that no man is righteous, that no man can seek God, that the gift of God is eternal life.

What then is this "offer" that an unregenerate can bring? There is nothing worthy to offer, not even ourselves. The natural man can receive nothing of God, not even of the Spirit of God outside the common graciousness extended to all (rains on just and unjust). The unregenerate are but dust with a living soul. Can they offer the soul? Christ ask, "What will a man give for his soul." That would imply ownership responsibility. However, the soul was not ours to begin with, but the gift breathed in to humankind to make us different from the rest of the creatures God created. It is important for the unregenerate to understand that they can gain all the world has to offer both in unrighteous and righteous and still not attain to God's standard of acceptance.


The second response is to the believer, for of all points this is very important!!!

The believer certainly has been given the gift of eternal life, and that is never to be diminished or off handily passed by.

However, do not neglect what the Scriptures say, "He that has begun a good work in you..." How is it that it is then begun by humankind attempts of offering? The believer does not offer to God to receive salvation, it is the Gift of God based on unmerited favor.

The Lord Jesus stated, that He wants total submission - "Give heart, mind, soul, strength..." Paul states, "I am crucified ..."

The submission to God, is paramount for the victorious believer. "God resists the proud..."

HeirofSalvation is very correct when he says, "... all we have to offer..." for that is exactly what Christ demands of every believer - our utmost for Him.

Here is a real neat part of the discussion.

Just when are we "granted the gift of eternal life." Most would state that it is at the point of "accepting" or some other term the Lord Jesus Christ.

However, that is a human event that God already knew would take place.

Reader, there is a lambs book of life. According to The Revelation, there are two items to keep in mind. First, the Lamb (Christ) was slain from the foundation of the world, and second, the names of that book were written before the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou saw was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. ​

I realize that I could have selected other passages to establish the principle, but these came to mind for they speak directly of redemption and in context the means of redemption for the believer and the eternal judgement for the unregenerate.

Just when is the believer saved? The answer is when God chooses.

Form humankind perspective, a person is drawn by the work of the Word and Holy Spirit, their darkened minds become aware of the need of salvation and then, as Romans states, while the word of belief is already in their hearts and mouth, the believer confesses Christ as their Savior. To some, they would say that at salvation God grants the new nature.

From God's perspective, it is obviously a dimensional difference. God is not subject to time and space. He is not subject to human conditions and events. As Sovereign, He has appointed who is to be a believer, written the name in the Lamb's book, and sealed it with the promise of the crucifixion. That person will come to Christ, and will be a believer, for the Father has given that person to Christ - all that the Father give will come to Him.

 

My post addresses Icon’s common, shameful accusations and deplorable debate tactics of reiterating that my (and other’s on this board) reasoning are carnally based because they do not agree with the 1689 LBC interpretations with a clear biblical explanation of what a true systematic theologian is led by and what it is not led by.

Your question, which you directed at my post, has nothing to do with that subject and seems to completely by-pass the point made and heads off in another direction.

It would do you well to learn to understand that there is never a logical conclusion come to when one contunually changes the subject in the way you commonly do and the type of argument you make neglects critical thinking skills (the science of logic, "philosophy") which bring value to a philosophical argument which should be designed toward coming to the truth in a matter concerning premises, claims and issues being discussed. The kind of argument you make is that "argument" and serves no real ethical purpose on a debate board but to cause more argument without there ever being a goal of a conclusion. I wish you and others here would learn to realize the difference.

 

Perhaps Romans 10, it gives a better illustration of how faith is given and the resulting compelled expression(s); neither of which is of any human volition.

Romans 10

2 For I bear them record that they (Israel) have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they (Israel) being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.
5 For Moses describes the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which does those things shall live by them. ​

(this is human righteousness in comparison to the next part)

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaks on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) ​

(to ponder "if you died today would you spend eternity in heaven" is human faith in intellectual pondering with no success as to actual faith and true expression unto salvation)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;​

(Where was the word of faith and from source was it generated? The preaching of the Word of God)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

(the Word was already in the heart, and in the mouth - there was no human volition, only a response predicated upon that Word and work of the Holy Spirit for the next verses validate the claim of Christ upon the soul)

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. ​

What joy that last part (11 - 13) gives of the hope that all are saved in the same manner. There is no advantage of station, living, education, standard, but the expressive proclamation that believers make.

 

Ben, this kind of post really doesn't make much value to anyone.

It is complaining and demeaning, and really offers nothing of edification to what you would use to actually support your view.

In effect it is saying that someone, in which you have little background of knowledge about, is beneath your exalted ascendancy of understanding all things and this board needs to "learn to realize" how you are different and desire that all conform to what you expect.

Sorry, but frankly, that kind of post is in design the very kind you and others are complaining about from Icon - accept at least he backs his up with Scriptures and documented historical figures and documents.

Are you not like one who would complain about the splinter in someone's eye and leave the beam hanging out of your own eye?

 

Your post is a great example of why it is of no value here...a typical display of ignorance of the principals of logic addressed in my post followed by the typical BB protocol of "argumment by Ad Hominem".

Some debate board!

 

Yep, Blame me for your lack. Isn't that what Adam did to Eve?

Ultimately, it is of little value to the board, if you attack someone for a weakness that you perceive rather than posting Scriptures and principle foundational documents that just might support your view.

But, then if that is all you can actually rely upon, then I suppose the suggestions of others as to what would actually benefit the readers of the board is of little value.

I thought you might actually be someone who could challenge the BB with accurate Scriptural postings that would enhance the understanding of the readers. Perhaps I was mistaken in such hope which is disappointing.

 

Not at all .Agedman sees through your philosophical facade and tells you what many of us have said. Your posts would be better served to use and address the scriptures.

Benjamin,

I am not be as skilled as many of the theologians who i quote from. But i do have a biblical understanding of the whole bible...based on the bible alone.
Next time i am going to pass through Glendale, we can meet at the Pilot/Flying J truckstop.
I will have my bible with me....hopefully you will bring yours. If you want to discuss bible teaching or doctrine, i will deal direct from the bible, not from calvins institutes, Jl dagg, Jp boyce...or anything else. Just the bible.

You can do the same.....we will see how that works out. The truck driver , and the evidentialist philosphical pseudo intellect. If i have been lead astray, by mans tradition it should not be long before you have me back on track. One thing however...it will be bible discussion...not these xy= g-de discussions.

 

What a bunch of useless verbiage. :laugh:

 

Right from the very beginning submission is required and this cannot be done with out decision.

Generated isn’t the word I would use. The man is convinced by the preaching of the Word. The faith as I see it was already there because everyman has it. Not everyman actually hears the gospel. Not because they can’t but because there was no one to preach it. The next verse states that “If” thou shalt confess. The word “if” strongly suggest the man must choose his ultimate destination

I really do not follow just where you are getting this from about the volition. I see choice writen all over it I simply don't know how it is that you do not see that. I'm willing to admit that I myself had the word as you call it in my mouth many times before I confessed and what brought it on was the conviction. I did not confess the first time I was drawn. It took many times and many times of hearing the gospel preaching. There was no change in me until I surrendered to the righteousness of God. That was a decision, though I admit, it was heavily influenced by my being convinced it was what I needed.

Exactly and that proclamation requires a decision and no where in the passage above does it support a predestination to Salvation nor a prefaith regeneration. The reason for preaching the gospel is to convince the Lost that they need Christ.
MB

 

:thumbs::wavey::thumbs:

 

Yes, I know, I should know better than to try to explain the merits of logical reasoning to Determinists, they obviously don't understand those values to begin with. It is a complete waste of time.

 

You are correct (in my opinion) that in the original it is a typical if/then statement such as if this then that.

In application, if the Word was already in the heart and in the mouth, then response is automatic. If the Word was not already in the heart and mouth, then the response may be human generated words (pray this prayer after me). Such is the case of those who may be of shallow dirt who sprout acceptably in the short term but have no real root.

This portion of Romans may help a bit.

Romans 10

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. ​

I would present this line of thinking that may show that both of us are actually stating the same line of reasoning.

Using your own testimony, above, you mentioned that the word was followed by conviction and that brought about confession. That is so neat!!! It follows the pattern of Paul.

The Scriptures say that Paul was struck down and heard, "How long will you kick..." He apparently had been "kicking" (under conviction) for some time, and that is as you confessed. There was no change in Paul until he surrendered, "Lord what would you ..." Just as it was in your conversion. Paul submitted to the Lord Jesus, and so did you.

The unregenerate has no particular concern for the things of God, but you did, and the press of conviction mounted with each exposure to the Word. Therefore, it would follow that you were already were carrying at least the conception of regeneration; that the birthing would take place just as Scriptures state in Philippians 1:

"3 I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: "​

There are those who do not agree with a "pre-faith" (I call it pre-birth) regeneration; I contend that it is impossible for the unregenerate to even respond to the Scriptures and Holy Spirit. The Scriptures state as you know, that it is impossible for the unregenerate to respond more than with "sorrow of this world" without some regenerative work to awakened the person to even sense Godly conviction.

Now, in some schemes, they might construct some special "grace" (sometimes called previenient) to establish this initial relationship. But for all that I have searched the Scriptures, that sort of grace is just not found.

That only leaves the birth of the believer (final conversion) as the result of first being awakened to the need of Christ by the Word and work of the Holy Spirit conviction, the implantation of the Word in the heart and mouth (which is the implantation of faith) and the only response that the person can make.

In that sense, "pre-faith" or "pre-birth" regeneration is really not an accurate depiction. For the Faith imparted by God has already taken root in the heart and with it the new will/nature that will upon complete development birth the believer.

Consider the human conception and birth process as a sort of guide to what happens. Is the pre-birth human, not already a living being yet to be born?

I realize that not everyone will agree on this, but in my opinion the Scriptures have ample support of it.

 

Aged man....

You posted...

Oh my. Its worse then I thought.You have been fully indoctrinated. Lock, stock and barrel.You have drunk the Koolaid in abundance.

None of us have free will. We are all just robots. Wind us up, and off we go....unthinking robots doing as we have been pre ordained to do.

There is, unfortunetly, no need to even go into the rest of your post. It would, sadly fall on deaf ears.

 

We all feel guilty and ashamed for what our sin did to Jesus and we don't want to do any more harm to Him. We can be vulnerability like a person with a broken heart and easy to be manipulated. When we are focused on Jesus walking with Him no mater what men my say you are not on a man centered salvation and don't let men make you feel guilty or ashamed of your salvation to run to their religion that they say is God centered. We can't let what other say about us get us angry and open a door for the devil to have a foot hold in our life. To do or say something we shouldn't. You can't be man centered if Jesus is walking ahead of you or walking with Him.

 

Then why did you even respond in such a dismissive way?

Do you think the response you gave brought any light to the truth?

Perhaps you did not concern yourself with the rest of the post for fear sake. Perhaps you sensed that your own scheme would be found unscriptural and so resort to dismissive ridicule.

I don't know, however your obvious lack of Scripture in the response is sad.

I will then assume you need more proof.

Can you demonstrate from history or the Bible that any "free will choice" man made from the fall until now has not ended in corruption and decay?

Because I consider the answer as no, I will post further in support that the other readers may consider the truth.

Certainly, an evil person can give a good gift - that is Scriptural, but that doesn't make it a lasting gift, nor does it make the giving an expression of "free will."

The Scriptures state that there is no action taken by the unregenerate without selfish or obliged motive and agenda, for the evil person's heart is continually upon evil as the Scriptures state: Genesis 6:5

"And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."​

Is man in any better condition than the days of Noah? Is there some righteousness given to the heart modern man that was not present from the fall of Adam to Noah? Solomon said, Ecles. 8:11

"Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil."​

Is that not pictured in the modern times?

How about what the Lord Jesus said, Mt 12:35

"A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things" and in another place, "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:"​

What treasure can the unregenerate have in the heart?

Does the unregenerate have a "good heart?" NO! The scriptures state the difference between the heart/will of the natural man in comparison to the heart/will of the new creature in 1 Cor 2:

"11 For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. ​

Does not the Scriptures state,

"There is none righteous - not one."​

The non-cal side wants to thump on "all" then dispute when the word all is found in,

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."​

Does the last part of that verse smite the first parts null?

The unregenerate has only one will - to serve evil all the days of their life. For the father of the fallen nature/heart/will is satanic.

The regenerate has only one Godly nature/heart/will given when endowed with the new creature. That new creature is immediately set upon by the satanic nature/heart/will and hence the war of the worlds is enjoined.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against..."​