Will become a church member

[evangelist6589]

Just spoke with the pastor. While we had a talk about tithing and he gave his view and I gave my view we both agreed to disagree as I tried to speak in gentleness. He seemed to question the Missionary Church Baptism and the movement in general associated with the CM&A I know that they are legit in terms of the essentials of the faith.

I have been a member of 2 Reformed Calvinist churches in other states and neither asked me to get Baptized again due to my salvation and baptism in the Missionary Church. But oh well I simply said that we agreed on the essentials of the faith and since he knew I was Reformed I did not wish to get into any debates over secondary issues of doctrine. So I think in this case I an have fellowship with Arminian and the IFB as long as we do not try and militate our views on one another.

RC Sproul calls Norm Geisler his friend and has supported Arminian organizations and teachers. I need to learn from him.

 

[padredurand]

Just spoke with the pastor. While we had a talk about tithing and he gave his view and I gave my view we both agreed to disagree as I tried to speak in gentleness. He seemed to question the Missionary Church Baptism and the movement in general associated with the CM&A I know that they are legit in terms of the essentials of the faith.

I have been a member of 2 Reformed Calvinist churches in other states and neither asked me to get Baptized again due to my salvation and baptism in the Missionary Church. But oh well I simply said that we agreed on the essentials of the faith and since he knew I was Reformed I did not wish to get into any debates over secondary issues of doctrine. So I think in this case I an have fellowship with Arminian and the IFB as long as we do not try and militate our views on one another.

RC Sproul calls Norm Geisler his friend and has supported Arminian organizations and teachers. I need to learn from him.

I pray this move is a blessing for both you and the church.

 

[Judith]

I wish you the best in searching for a church, but I do not believe that the philosophy "to agree to disagree" is biblical or honoring to the Lord. We are told this.
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be in agreement?
What matters is can you change to the pastor's beliefs?

 

[evangelist6589]

I wish you the best in searching for a church, but I do not believe that the philosophy "to agree to disagree" is biblical or honoring to the Lord. We are told this.
Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be in agreement?
What matters is can you change to the pastor's beliefs?

I believe that secondary matters of doctrine are debatable. Eschatology, alcoholic beverages, style of tracts, worship style, bible translations, and such. Or do you think that these are essentials of the faith?

No I cannot conform to the pastors Arminian views.

 

[evangelist6589]

I pray this move is a blessing for both you and the church.

Thanks. I just hope that I do not get into an argument with the deacons over Reformed Theology.

 

[Tom Butler]

In the church I serve, there are both Calvinists and non-Calvinists, and we get along just fine. At least three of our deacons are DoGs.

I would say that the majority of our members are not DoGs. Those of us who are place great value on unity. By that I mean we're not going to militantly push our DoG views. We are unified on just about everything else. And those areas where there are different viewpoints are not tests of fellowship.

 

[evangelist6589]

In the church I serve, there are both Calvinists and non-Calvinists, and we get along just fine. At least three of our deacons are DoGs.

I would say that the majority of our members are not DoGs. Those of us who are place great value on unity. By that I mean we're not going to militantly push our DoG views. We are unified on just about everything else. And those areas where there are different viewpoints are not tests of fellowship.

Yeah I need to take that attitude. The church is not going to change and neither am I. However they are great at fellowship and seem to care about each other. I am been in Reformed churches where all they ever did was debate and argue and fight. The doctrine was dead on, but the attitude of the church did not verify the testimony of there gospel. Yes I remember one church in CA where I just loved the pastors preaching and he always hit the nail on the head. However some of the members in the church where as rude as a unbeliever. One such person was the secretary whom even the Charismatic churches said was a rude person. The Charismatic church had a point!

Another church in SS the pastor would always debate and argue with a certain Hyper Dispensationalist whom always showed up to cause an argument each sunday. They never removed him from the church, but the pastor each and every week would argue and debate with the man. It was like going to a boxing match and we all got our entertainment. They both liked to argue with one another... However newcomers often left the church and never came back.

 

[JonC]

In the church I serve, there are both Calvinists and non-Calvinists, and we get along just fine. At least three of our deacons are DoGs.

I would say that the majority of our members are not DoGs. Those of us who are place great value on unity. By that I mean we're not going to militantly push our DoG views. We are unified on just about everything else. And those areas where there are different viewpoints are not tests of fellowship.

This is my experience also. As I was reading yesterday I came across an old statement which highlights what I'd say here. I posted it elsewhere. But:

“Had these great men [General and Particular Baptist leaders] ‘agreed to disagree’ on the doctrine of Predestination, and had their people mingled together freely in their devotional meetings as they did here, their differences would soon have been forgotten; and united they would have exerted an influence in favor of truth, of the extent and benefit of which they themselves probably never dreamed. Unhappily they keep up their collisions; were thrown asunder; and afterwards existed as two separate, and in some respects antagonistic, denominations.” RBC Howell, second president of the SBC, from “The Early Baptists of Virginia”, 1857.

Evan - It is entirely possible that both you and the church will benefit from being united in Christ despite having disagreements in understanding/interpretation on secondary issues.

 

[salzer mtn]

Arminian, free willers, whatever you want to call them build their evangelistic message around two points, God loves every one and Christ died for every one. This is the very opposite of God chose the elect and Christ died for the elect. There is so much difference in their belief, one must question if the other is worshiping a god of their own imagination. If you truly believe in the doctrines of grace as it is preached by Sovereign grace preachers, you will be miserable among the free willers. Also they will try to convert you to their thinking, don't think they won't.

 

[Don]

Arminian, free willers, whatever you want to call them build their evangelistic message around two points, God loves every one and Christ died for every one. This is the very opposite of God chose the elect and Christ died for the elect. There is so much difference in their belief, one must question if the other is worshiping a god of their own imagination. If you truly believe in the doctrines of grace as it is preached by Sovereign grace preachers, you will be miserable among the free willers. Also they will try to convert you to their thinking, don't think they won't.

How much you wanna bet those "free willers" say the same about you?

 

[JonC]

Spurgeon preached “the two great doctrines of human responsibility and divine sovereignty.” He believed that truth had suffered because one group of brethren would not see the truth while another had magnified out of proportion that which they did see. People in ether camp would probably be miserable among brethren of the other. But there are many churches and brethren that do recognize truth yet do not magnify that truth out of proportion. I think your satisfaction in this church you speak of, Evan, will depend on where you and the church stand in this regard.

 

[salzer mtn]

Spurgeon preached “the two great doctrines of human responsibility and divine sovereignty.” He believed that truth had suffered because one group of brethren would not see the truth while another had magnified out of proportion that which they did see. People in ether camp would probably be miserable among brethren of the other. But there are many churches and brethren that do recognize truth yet do not magnify that truth out of proportion. I think your satisfaction in this church you speak of, Evan, will depend on where you and the church stand in this regard.

There is a big difference in human responsibility which Spurgeon preached and human ability which he didn't preach.

 

[preacher4truth]

There is a big difference in human responsibility which Spurgeon preached and human ability which he didn't preach.

That's a great and truthful response putting the issue in proper perspective. Typically those bringing up 'responsibility' are really meaning human ability. :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Arminian, free willers, whatever you want to call them build their evangelistic message around two points, God loves every one and Christ died for every one. This is the very opposite of God chose the elect and Christ died for the elect. There is so much difference in their belief, one must question if the other is worshiping a god of their own imagination. If you truly believe in the doctrines of grace as it is preached by Sovereign grace preachers, you will be miserable among the free willers. Also they will try to convert you to their thinking, don't think they won't.

I totally agree....if it was me....but its not.

 

[JonC]

There is a big difference in human responsibility which Spurgeon preached and human ability which he didn't preach.

Yes, I agree. There is a difference between human responsibility and human ability. Spurgeon preached “Have you a will to be cleansed from sin? A will to be made a new creature in Christ Jesus? Do you will to have eternal life? Then thus says the Spirit to you, ‘Whoever will, let him take the water of life freely.’ Now, notice three vast doors through which the biggest and most elephantine sinner that ever made the earth shake beneath the weight of his guilt may go. Here are the three doors. ‘Whoever’ - ‘will’ - ‘Freely’.” Spurgeon urged the sinner to “plunge” into the water, to “only trust Him” and to “cast yourselves upon the blood and merits of the Lord Jesus and the great work is done!” He had a biblical view of human responsibility.

You are right. While there are some who cannot see anything but divine sovereignty there are also those who cannot see anything but human responsibility (and this changed to human ability and magnified to mean that men ultimately save themselves). I believe Spurgeon to have accurately and eloquently illustrated the error of these two extremes. I’m just saying that if you belong to one of these extremes you most likely need to stick with your crowd or be content never being content.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You know....I saw my father go through this....it was not good. My mom pretty much forced him into her church and he did it but inwardly it always bothered him. More so when kids came along....he really had to bite his tongue ... he went along to keep the peace and that's what your doing. Salzer is 100% correct. Dude, you have caved on your inner most beliefs. You are not compromising. Good luck with living with yourself.

 

[JonC]

If my wife decided we’d become free-will Baptists, being a good Southern Baptist I’d say “no…submit woman!” When I regained consciousness I still wouldn’t become a member. :smilewinkgrin:

Seriously, though, as a complementarian I believe it is the husbands responsibility to provide spiritual leadership in the home. My opinion here would be that there is more to this than the doctrine of the local church. But hey, opinions are like … noses. Everyone has one.

 

[evangelist6589]

Arminian, free willers, whatever you want to call them build their evangelistic message around two points, God loves every one and Christ died for every one. This is the very opposite of God chose the elect and Christ died for the elect. There is so much difference in their belief, one must question if the other is worshiping a god of their own imagination. If you truly believe in the doctrines of grace as it is preached by Sovereign grace preachers, you will be miserable among the free willers. Also they will try to convert you to their thinking, don't think they won't.

Well they do not believe one can lose salvation nor are they KJVO. In the past in my days of ignorance I have been in Evangelical Covenant churches (ordained women, had Emergent theology, New Age teachings) among other churches that were far more out there than the IFB. But yes I see your point as I don't ever get anything out of the sermons. The teaching in SS is okay and next we will be covering eschatology of which I will agree more with IFB over Reformed.

But overall a big problem I am having at this place is that they do not teach doctrine enough nor does the pastor seem like a avid reader of anything beyond Paul Chapel and IFB authors. The word is called Anti-Intellectualism and it rots in the IFB movement.

My wife and her son think that relationships and connections with others is more important than DOCTRINE. I am combating that and only the HS can change them.

 

[evangelist6589]

Spurgeon preached “the two great doctrines of human responsibility and divine sovereignty.” He believed that truth had suffered because one group of brethren would not see the truth while another had magnified out of proportion that which they did see. People in ether camp would probably be miserable among brethren of the other. But there are many churches and brethren that do recognize truth yet do not magnify that truth out of proportion. I think your satisfaction in this church you speak of, Evan, will depend on where you and the church stand in this regard.

I am locked in the church due to my wife and her present inability to see anything beyond relationships and connections with others which she thinks is more important than DOCTRINE. Even in Joel Osteens church the people are nice, friendly, kind, and good ethical people. However that church does not preach DOCTRINE.

 

[evangelist6589]

You know....I saw my father go through this....it was not good. My mom pretty much forced him into her church and he did it but inwardly it always bothered him. More so when kids came along....he really had to bite his tongue ... he went along to keep the peace and that's what your doing. Salzer is 100% correct. Dude, you have caved on your inner most beliefs. You are not compromising. Good luck with living with yourself.

What can I do then???? The one visit I took to a local Reformed Bible church I LOVED IT!!!! The preaching was on fire and they taught the word with conviction. There was WOTM friendly people there and it was a great experience. But it bothered my wife and all...

At the moment I am getting my teaching from my books and sermon podcasts. This is a situation that needs continued prayer...