Will Catholics Be "Left Behind"?

[servant4him]

Those who claim that someone of one denomination of Christianity will be left behind or go to Hell when that someone believes in God truly then they are DEFINATLEY not going to.
It is blaspheme to say anything of the such.
I hope that whoever says this realizes their horrible mistake.

--God Bless All Christians!--

 

[Kathryn]

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:3

God Bless

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

but the denial of the very entrance to the kingdom by the Baptists is even worse!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What are you talking about? (neal)

You're in denial that you're a denier? Your denomination fiercly holds back the penitent believer from being baptized FOR the remission of sins and thereby sends them to a devil's hell unprepared thinking "I'm saved" when they've never even entered the kingdom. Yeah, you baptize, but only as a worthless, pointles symbol. None who are baptized in the Baptist religion have faith in the operation of God as Colossians 2:12 speaks of, because the Baptist pastor brainwashes them into believing that there is no operation of God in baptism. I don't care how rude you think it is - I'm sick of this heresy! It's sending millions to hell and it makes me sick! You know what? I'm leaving this board. Titus 3:10 says "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject." I think that rejecting DHK and you and all the heretics that fight against the entrance to Christ's kingdom is long overdue. I'm outa here.

[ June 18, 2003, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

[DHK]

You're in denial that you're a denier? Your denomination fiercly holds back the penitent believer from being baptized FOR the remission of sins and thereby sends them to a devil's hell unprepared thinking "I'm saved" when they've never even entered the kingdom. Yeah, you baptize, but only as a worthless, pointles symbol. None who are baptized in the Baptist religion have faith in the operation of God as Colossians 2:12 speaks of, because the Baptist pastor brainwashes them into believing that there is no operation of God in baptism. I don't care how rude you think it is - I'm sick of this heresy! It's sending millions to hell and it makes me sick! You know what? I'm leaving this board. Titus 3:10 says "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject." I think that rejecting DHK and you and all the heretics that fight against the entrance to Christ's kingdom is long overdue. I'm outa here.

Wow!! This is the first time that I have looked into this thread, and I see my name being mentioned in a heated debate where I am being called a heretic fighting against entrance to the Kingdom of Christ! What did I do??

Well, let’s clear some things up.
#1.

Your denomination fiercely holds…

My denomination?? Hold it right there! I am an IFBer. I don’t belong to any denomination. No false accusations please. If your going to accuse me in a thread I haven’t even visited then at least be accurate in your accusations. I don’t believe in denominations. I have never been a part of a denomination since I have been saved. Have we got that straight?

#2. No believer needs to be baptized for the remission of sins. Where do you get the idea that they do? If you baptize a believer, then obviously his sins are already forgiven. One baptizes a believer because his sins are forgiven. You know an understanding of those Greek prepositions is a tricky thing. Maybe you’ll get it someday. Until you do, you better rely on comparing Scripture with Scripture, and come to the rightful conclusion that one must simply “call upon the name of the Lord, and be saved.” That’s pretty simple isn’t it? Paul never mentioned baptism there, and for good reason. In 1Cor.1, he as much denounced baptism as being unimportant. “For God sent me not to baptize.” What’s that again?? “Sent me not to baptize?” But the Lord sent him to preach the gospel, to save the lost, to be a light unto the gentiles, to deliver them from darkness unto light, to free them from the bondage of sin—and all without baptism. Incredible!!

#3.

Yeah, you baptize, but only as a worthless, pointles symbol

What? You say that the command of the Lord Jesus Christ is worthless! Isn’t that blasphemy? When the Pharisees attributed the works of Christ to the work of Satan, Jesus said that it was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which could never be forgiven. You sound like your getting pretty close. I would never call a command of Christ worthless and pointless.
Yes it is symbolic. It is symbolic of our death to our old life of sin, and our rising again to a new life in Jesus Christ. It may also be symbolic of the very death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

#4.

None who are baptized in the Baptist religion have faith in the operation of God as Colossians 2:12 speaks of,

First, I don’t have religion—I have faith, faith in God. My faith saves me. You have religion for you trust in your works (baptism) for your salvation. You are seeking out for God. That is religion. God already sought out me. By faith I accepted His gift of salvation.

Col2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
--As in Rom.6:3,4, baptism here is purely symbolical. It is a picture. I, through my baptism, am buried (symbolically) with Christ, and I rise again in newness of life, as Christ was raised from the dead. It is the power of His resurrection, and resurrected life that gives me the power to live a victorious Christian life. The water of baptism just gets me wet.

#5.

because the Baptist pastor brainwashes them into believing that there is no operation of God in baptism

Uh Oh! More slanderous accusations, when I am not even there. Hey! There is no brainwashing in our church, ok! The pastor can hardly brainwash me since I am the pastor 
Nope, were not Catholics. Baptism is not a means of grace or a sacrament like you are describing it. It is symbolic, and that is all. There is no operation of God in a symbol.

#6.

. I don't care how rude you think it is - I'm sick of this heresy!

Well I care. If you can’t say something nice; then don’t say it at all. And I am sick of your heresy too. That is about as nicely as I can say it. The Bible says it this way: It is a damnable heresy.

#7.

! It's sending millions to hell and it makes me sick! You know what? I'm leaving this board. Titus 3:10 says "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject."

Yes, the Church of Christ doctrine known as baptismal regeneration is sending millions to Hell. That is enough to make any Bible-believing Christian sick. Titus 3:10 at this juncture could very well be in order.
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

I'm leaving this board. Titus 3:10 says "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject." I think that rejecting DHK and you and all the heretics that fight against the entrance to Christ's kingdom is long overdue. I'm outa here.

That is not my intention. But if you are leaving, bye.

May the Lord bless you, Sola.

And I don't know of a Baptist pastor that has held back a penitent sinner from being baptized. I also find it amusing that you condemn me for baptism being symbolic and yet you condemn Catholics for taking the Lord's Supper literal. At least be consistent.

Neal

P.S. If you don't care how rude you are then you are just as guilty as what you accuse me of. You deny God's Word.

Maybe you should rethink your approach. It is kind of hard to accuse others of things that you do.

[ June 18, 2003, 05:20 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Servantforhim,

The Thessalonian Christians were concerned about the death of their loved ones as to where they were going and about the day of the Lord's return. Study both epistles and you will come to believe that Christ coming for His church is before the Great Tribulation and the resurrection and judgment of the lost will take place after the 1,000 year reign of Christ. A supportive passage about this is found in Revelation chapter twenty.

I understand what you mean about occasional need for confession of sin, but to say we are all sinners conflicts with the idea of a Christian. Christians don't make a practice of sinning [I John 3:9] while sinners do just that. Rather than calling yourself a sinner do what the Apostle John did by saying, that He was a son of God through faith in Jesus. [I John 3:2; John 1:12]]

 

[servant4him]

Do Catholics believe in the Rapture?

 

[Ray Berrian]

No one is saved through adult baptism. The thief on the Cross did not have time to go to the Jordan to be baptized and yet he went to Paradise/Heaven. And yet after we are saved we will be prompted by the Spirit to follow Christ's direction to be baptized. [Mark 16:16]

 

[Ray Berrian]

servantforhim,

It is my understanding that the tradition of their church speaks of one final judgment day. There may be some Catholics who believe in the gifts of the Spirit who understand the rapture of the church.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi servant4him,

You asked, "Do Catholics believe in the Rapture?"

Yes, Catholics do believe in the Rapture, but not in the pre-trib rapture theology that is less than 200 years old.

Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).

If you would like a free audio tape explaining the Catholic belief from the Bible, visit
http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/free_tapes.asp

and order "The Rapture and the Bible" and/or visit the following link and read the online article:

http://www.catholic.com/library/rapture.asp

[ June 19, 2003, 01:38 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber,

You referenced yourself the rapture of the saints into Heaven in I Thess. 4:1, which is from the pen of the Apostle Paul under the guidance of the Lord Himsel nearly 2,000 years ago.

Tell these people the truth. You believe in the Second Coming of Christ from Revelation 19:11-21 a one more time final coming to judge everyone at the end of the world.

The Thessalonian account refers to only His coming for the church. Notice, who He is coming for in I Thess. 4:16, only those who have died in Christ and not one sinner. Sometimes we conclude our letters by saying, In Christ, Ray. 'For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, and THE DEAD IN CHRIST (only) shall rise {from the dead} first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air . . .'

In the Thessalonian account we meet Him in the air; {at the rapture} and in Revelation 19:11 He will be bringing His saints with Him as He touches down on the earth, destroying those who are not in Christ, meaning the unsaved. [Zechariah 14:4] At the Second Coming Jesus' blessed feet will set down on the Mount of Olives, [vs. 4] the same place and way in which He left this earth for Heaven as our Mediator. [Acts 1:11-12]

The wicked will be judged after the 1,000 year Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. That is why John says in Revelation 20:5 ' . . . the rest of the dead {meaning the wicked dead} lived not again until the thousand years were finished.'

 

[3AngelsMom]

To the original question:

YES

Reason? Because when Jesus returns, all the wicked will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming (Paruosia), which will leave all the righteous, in Christ behind.

Lahaye and Jenkins have it backwards.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
No one is saved through adult baptism. The thief on the Cross did not have time to go to the Jordan to be baptized and yet he went to Paradise/Heaven. And yet after we are saved we will be prompted by the Spirit to follow Christ's direction to be baptized. [Mark 16:16]

Greetings Ray,
First off, I agree that no one is 'saved' through Baptism, but I have a slight issue with your statement about the thief on the cross.

Could you site chapter and verse that tells us, without doubt, that he 'went' to Paradise/Heaven?

Thanks,
Kelly

 

[Carson Weber]

Could you site chapter and verse that tells us, without doubt, that he 'went' to Paradise/Heaven?

Because, if your denomination teaches soul-sleep, you are bound to bend over backwards to defend it, even at the expense of sound exegesis arrived at through the literal-historical interpretation of Scripture.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

Could you site chapter and verse that tells us, without doubt, that he 'went' to Paradise/Heaven?

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Could you site chapter and verse that tells us, without doubt, that he 'went' to Paradise/Heaven?

Because, if your denomination teaches soul-sleep, you are bound to bend over backwards to defend it, even at the expense of sound exegesis arrived at through the literal-historical interpretation of Scripture.

Perhaps if people knew how to write in complete sentences we would all benifit from their limitless understanding, and wisdom of proper exegesis and literal-historical interpretation of Scripture.

Since that is surely NOT happening, none of us can exceed our high school educated minds, and REALLY know what God meant when He inspired the writer of Hebrews to say (Heb 9:27) "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Instead of the ever popular doctrine of "it is appointed unto men not to really die but to either go right to heaven or hell or purgatory". Strange how God worded that so that when our limited minds couldn't comprehend "die-then-judgment" a MAN would come along in a big hat and a dress and tell us "that's not reaaaaalllyyy what He meant, it REALLY means 'not really die-purgatory-hell/heaven', so just ignore what those words really mean, because it isn't good exegesis to read it the way it is written".

Use the logic that God has given you, and think for yourselves.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

1. Did Jesus go to Paradise TODAY?
2. Did the theif DIE 'today'?
3. Is there punctuation in the original languages?

May God Bless your BIBLE studies,
Kelly

 

[Ray Berrian]

3AngelsMom,

One general guide is that anything to do with Jesus death is at the end of each of the Gospels. But, to answer your question when the thief died he went to paradise. [Luke 23:43]

When Jesus went to paradise with the reconciled thief [Luke 16:23] He took all of the Old Testament saints who were in Abraham's bosom on to the glory of Heaven. Abraham's bosom was a divided place where those in Hell could actually view those who were in the infinitely better place called paradise. [Luke 16:23]

As you probably know that now during this church age anyone who loves Jesus and dies goes directly to Heaven and by-passes the alleged Purgatory, and comes instanteously to the felicity of Heaven into the Presence of our Lord. [II Cor. 5:8 & Philippians 1:23]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
1. Did Jesus go to Paradise TODAY?
2. Did the theif DIE 'today'?
3. Is there punctuation in the original languages?

(Mat 5:26 KJV) Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

(Mat 26:34 KJV) Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

(Mark 14:30 KJV) And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

(Luke 23:43 KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

(John 3:3 KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

(John 3:5 KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(John 3:11 KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

(John 13:38 KJV) Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

(John 21:18 KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

The only important question that you need to deal with is: Did the thief go to Paradise that day or not? Was Jesus telling the truth or not. If the thief did not go to Paradise that day, then Jesus Christ is the biggest liar that ever lived, and did not keep His Word.

There are no mental gymnastics you can do with exegesis of this verse. It reads just as plainly in the Greek as it does in the English. Jesus said: "Today, you shall be with me in Paradise."
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
[QB] 3AngelsMom,

One general guide is that anything to do with Jesus death is at the end of each of the Gospels. But, to answer your question when the thief died he went to paradise. [Luke 23:43]

Luke 23:43, could you respond to the 3 questions in my last post referring to that verse?

When Jesus went to paradise with the reconciled thief [Luke 16:23] He took all of the Old Testament saints who were in Abraham's bosom on to the glory of Heaven.

Again, could you site chapter and verse that would prove that statement?

Abraham's bosom was a divided place where those in Hell could actually view those who were in the infinitely better place called paradise. [Luke 16:23]

According to the verse you cited, in a parable, there were two places, 'hell' or 'hades' in the greek which is commonly traslated in English versions as either 'hell' or 'grave', and Abrahams Bosom. This parable is the ONLY mention of a place called Abrahams Bosom. ONLY. The promise of Eternal Life is given to those in Christ, which shall come to fruition in our entrance to the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, the Paradise of God, with the Tree of Life in the midst of it, which cannot take place until we are changed into immortality. NOW, either this 'story' is TRUE and really did happen, which makes the rest of the promises of the Bible regarding eternity difficult to understand, or it is a parable meant to explain a deeper issue. The simple and undeniable fact that this 'story' is nestled in the midst of several other parables lends the interpretation that, it too, is a parable. Come what may, the idea that there 'used to be' a place for the departed 'souls' to dwell that was 'closed' and 'emptied' after the death of Christ requires us to forget all the passages that refer to the ressurrection of the dead and eternal life.

As you probably know that now during this church age anyone who loves Jesus and dies goes directly to Heaven and by-passes the alleged Purgatory, and comes instanteously to the felicity of Heaven into the Presence of our Lord. [II Cor. 5:8 & Philippians 1:23]

What I know is that the Bible teaches us that after death we must face judgment. ALL MEN must face judgment. I do not, however, see any evidence that we die and go directly to ANYTHING. As you may well have figured out, I am a card carrying member of the Seventh Day Adventist Church and believe in a doctrine commonly called 'Soul Sleep'. What that means is that when we die, we are instantaneously watching the Coming of Christ! ALL OF US TOGETHER! We do not believe that when we die we will 'spiritually' live in heaven awaiting the Second Coming. We believe that the Bible is quite clear that it will be at the last trump, in the twinkling of an eye, the dead will rise, be changed to immortality and then the living will be changed and join us in the air. That concept does not work with the idea that we go RIGHT to heaven the 'moment' (in earthly dimentional time) that we die. So in EFFECT, we do immediatly see Christ when we die, but NOT in 'spirit'. We die, and 'sleep' through the ages until Christ's return. Then when He comes, and with the Voice of the ArchAngel, and the Trumpet of God, Jesus will herald to us 'AWAKE!!!' and we will come forth to immortality and eternal life! What good news!

Both of those verses that you posted ring true, because for all intensive purposes we ARE with Christ when we leave this body of sin. For our corrupt flesh will be our home until He redeems us from it!

Which, unless anyone wants to SERIOUSLY contradict the Bible, is on the LAST DAY!

Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave (sheol-hell); I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave(sheol), I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell(hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now, if these people who have died over the years were already in a 'hell' of fire and torment, what would be the purpose of taking them out, and casting them into the Lake of Fire?

Keeping in mind always that the Bible is quite clear that it is only required of a man to die ONCE, and after that he is required to face JUDGMENT. What does that mean to you?

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
1. Did Jesus go to Paradise TODAY?
2. Did the theif DIE 'today'?
3. Is there punctuation in the original languages?

The only important question that you need to deal with is: Did the thief go to Paradise that day or not? Was Jesus telling the truth or not. If the thief did not go to Paradise that day, then Jesus Christ is the biggest liar that ever lived, and did not keep His Word.

Or you are wrong. Take out the punctuation that was 'added for CLARITY' and you will see no problem with this verse. Jesus TOLD Him 'today', He did not tell Him 'today you will go'.

There are no mental gymnastics you can do with exegesis of this verse. It reads just as plainly in the Greek as it does in the English.

WRONG.

Jesus said: "Today, you shall be with me in Paradise

Actually He DID NOT say that. He said "Amen soi lego semeron metemou ese en to Paradeiso."
|2532| And
|2036| said
|0846| to
|3588| him
|2424| Jesus
|0281| Truly
|3004| I say
|4671| to you
|4594| today
|3326| with
|1700| me
|2071| You will be
|1722| in
|3588| the
|3857| Paradise.

No commas, no pause. He said it today, and it is IMPOSSIBLE for Him to lie. Jesus DID NOT go to Paradise 'today'.

What did He say to Mary at the tomb when she tried to 'cling' to Him?

Where had He NOT gone?

This doesn't require mental gymnastics, all it requires is simple logic and reasoning. Think for yourselves.

God Bless,
Kelly