Will- Is there not a cause?

[Havensdad]

Not exclusively, it also means "(own, self, voluntary) will, as...(what) would"


Here are a few commentaries I read on this verse. I am not certain it is as clear cut as you state.



Jamieson, Fausset, & Brown
If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord--The directions given here relate solely to voluntary or freewill offerings--those rendered over and above such, as being of standing and universal obligation, could not be dispensed with or commuted for any other kind of offering ( Exd 29:38 Lev 23:37 Num 28:3, 11-27 , &c.).


Matthew Henry (Lev. 1:3)
2. The owner must offer it voluntarily.


Geneva Study Bible
1:3 If his offering [be] a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the c tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.


J. Vernon McGee
“He shall offer it of his own voluntary will.” May I say, this is free will with a vengeance. The Lord Jesus said, “if any man thirst, let him come…” . This is an lll-inclusive invitation to the human family. None are excluded except those who exclude themselves.

It only refers to will in relation to desire. The word "free" is nowhere in the Hebrew, nor is it implied. Just because an offering is "voluntary" does not mean it is a desire free from outside influence.

 

[quantumfaith]

Personally, I don't usually respond to this ongoing debate calvin vs arminius soteriology.

I can honestly say that I am a follower of neither.

To me, to say that God is in any manner or in any way the cause and/or author of sin to any degree by any venue is repulsive and the arguments thereof are orwellian doublethink.

On the other hand to say that we (mankind, collectively or individually) in any manner or in any way by any venue can effect our own salvation to any degree apart from the absolute sovereign power of God is equally as repulsive.

This is not an indictment of those brethren holding to either view and that is not say that I might not find myself in either camp at some time in the future. I have presently chosen indecision which I suppose is not so good in the eyes of some.

For now, I am caught in what I see as the great gulf fixed between the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man concerning salvation.
But I am content to be here because He is with me and He knows my limitations.

NKJV Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.​

This is what I/we can do.

Proverbs 3

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.​

There are other conflicts between the calvin and arminus views which I cannot bridge with the Scripture.

There are also personal objections to pet doctrines in each view which I am simply unable to reconcile with Scripture.

I am however able to fellowship with either camp (and others camped along the way somewhere between the two), assuming of course that they have the indwelling Spirit.

Here is what I do know (and probably all of us as well): Christ has transformed my life and the Spirit witnesses to my spirit that I am a child of God.

Also "...whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely".

God's blessings to all in this our season of joy.

HankD

Hear here (I didnt know which one to go with)...Very well said. Thank you for your honesty.

 

[Amy.G]

:sleep::sleep::sleep::sleep:

 

[quantumfaith]

:sleep::sleep::sleep:

Amy, you might need to do a sleep study and perhaps use a CPAP.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, you might need to do a sleep study and perhaps use a CPAP.

HA!!!! good one!

It's just gotten so that Luke's rantings put me to sleep. :sleep: Whoops!

 

[quantumfaith]

HA!!!! good one!

It's just gotten so that Luke's rantings put me to sleep. :sleep: Whoops!

I use one now, it has made a remarkable difference in my ability to get sleep, sleep that I never realized I was missing, aside from running out of energy in mid-afternoon.

 

[Amy.G]

I use one now, it has made a remarkable difference in my ability to get sleep, sleep that I never realized I was missing, aside from running out of energy in mid-afternoon.

My husband has used one for about 15 years. It has saved his life. At the time he started using it, his sleep study showed that he was breathing for a few seconds then he would completely stop for a minute or more. He wasn't over weight or anything. The doc said he was born with a narrow trachea.

 

[quantumfaith]

My husband has used one for about 15 years. It has saved his life. At the time he started using it, his sleep study showed that he was breathing for a few seconds then he would completely stop for a minute or more. He wasn't over weight or anything. The doc said he was born with a narrow trachea.

Not sure how these "specialties" will be dealt with in regards to all the changes with medical care in this country. Kudos to your husband for doing this. It was a rather 'fearful" experience for me, worried that my sleep video might end up on Youtube, as many of my former students work in the area hospitals.

 

[Luke2427]

Not exclusively, it also means "(own, self, voluntary) will, as...(what) would"


Here are a few commentaries I read on this verse. I am not certain it is as clear cut as you state.



Jamieson, Fausset, & Brown
If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord--The directions given here relate solely to voluntary or freewill offerings--those rendered over and above such, as being of standing and universal obligation, could not be dispensed with or commuted for any other kind of offering ( Exd 29:38 Lev 23:37 Num 28:3, 11-27 , &c.).


Matthew Henry (Lev. 1:3)
2. The owner must offer it voluntarily.


Geneva Study Bible
1:3 If his offering [be] a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the c tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.


J. Vernon McGee
“He shall offer it of his own voluntary will.” May I say, this is free will with a vengeance. The Lord Jesus said, “if any man thirst, let him come…” . This is an lll-inclusive invitation to the human family. None are excluded except those who exclude themselves.

I don't have a problem with the TERM free will- I have a problem with the idea that many hold to concerning it.

It is the illogical notion that there is NO cause for choices men make.

That is indefensible.

And if there is a cause, then we must determine who ultimately controls the cause.

What we will find if we will just use our God given ability to think is that GOD ultimately controls the causes behind choices.

What does that lead us to understand?

That God worketh ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will (Ephesians 1:11) and that "Of him and through him and to him are ALL things" (Romans 11:36)

 

[Luke2427]

This seems to be the Arminian or non-reformed hang up.

When it comes to soteriology they are willing to ask why all the way up to "choice" and then they don't want to take another step nor ask "why" another single time.

I think this is because they know to go ONE MORE step past "choice" will cause them to become Calvinists.

They seem to think that choices do not have causes.

They deny the law of nature God put in place called "Cause and Effect".

For every effect there is a cause. A choice is an effect which has a cause.

Choices do not appear ex nihilo. There are causes, reasons why people choose what they choose.

With John (who chooses Christ) and Jack (who does not) they are only willing to investigate back to the point where they make their choice- and no further.

When you ask them, "But WHY did John choose Christ and Jack not" they say, "He simply did."

But this is meaningless. They deny that there is a cause or refuse to face that fact.

Something CAUSED them to choose what they chose.

Some cleverly say, "Well it was the choices the made all through life up TO the point where they made a choice concerning Christ." But this leaves them with the same problem. WHY did they make that chain of choices differently? Environment? Their personal nature? WHY did they make the choices they made?

Now someone will say- "Well we can't know- it is different for everyone and we can't know their hearts." Two things here:

#1- Fine. But you still have to deal with why one has a heart that drives them to make choices that lead them to Christ and why the other has a heart that drives them to make choices that lead them to hell. Whyn the difference in hearts and who controls those differences- who caused those differences?

#2- We DO know some things about all human hearts. We know that they are all desperately wicked and deceitful above all things.



Do you believe that there is a cause for every choice and every chain of choices?

If so, why are the causes so different for Jack who perishes and John who lives forever?

Who ultimately controlled those causes? Missionaries, Christians, Parents, School teachers, bullies, friends,- or God.

If God controlled the causes for the choices, then guess what- God is the one who determines who comes to Christ and who does not.

Only ONE person did not vote that choices have causes.

So what are we to conclude from this fact?


Who controls the CAUSES?

 

[matt wade]

Only ONE person did not vote that choices have causes.

So what are we to conclude from this fact?


Who controls the CAUSES?

Please let me know who causes a man to choose to commit murder? Who causes a man to commit rape? Who causes a man to molest a child?

 

[Luke2427]

Please let me know who causes a man to choose to commit murder? Who causes a man to commit rape? Who causes a man to molest a child?

When a man works and acts according to his desires he is working or acting freely.

Nonetheless, HIS DESIRES ARE FASHIONED BY EXTERNAL FORCES. Do you understand this?

You are doing EXACTLY what I enunciated in the op of another thread.

Will is bound to desire. Desire is shaped by external forces.

I like calf liver and gravy over rice. Do you?

Probably not- most people don't.

I do not like onions. Do you?

You probably eat them on your burger. Most folks do.

Now if I sat before you identical proportions of calf liver and a Krystal cheeseburger and said, "Choose", you would probably CHOOSE the Krystal burger.

Not me. Those things are covered in diced onions.

Did you make a choice? Yes. Was your will to choose completely free with no inclinations to the one or the other? Absolutely not. If you are like most folks I know your will was bound to choose the burger.

Men always choose what they most want. If you were to choose the stuff you did not like it would be because you wanted to make a point- you still would be doing what you most wanted.

Why would you not choose the calf liver? Because you do not want it. Now here's the kicker- Why did you not want it?

Forces outside of you molded your wants. You did not form your taste buds- God did. You did not decide into which family you would be born- God did. You did not decide in which environment and culture you would be raised- God did.

EVERYTHING that molded your desire against calf liver was determined by God.

So is your will really free? No. God determined in eternity past that you would choose the Krystal burger.

At the same time in eternity past God determined I would choose the calf liver.

Now what Arminians do at this point, because the wheels in their mind go into over drive thinking about all the negative connotations of this truth, they abandon rational argument and dive headfirst into emotion. They stop THINKING and start FEELING.

And they say: YOU ARE SAYING THAT GOD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SIN!!!!! And in comes the word "rape"- it is kind of funny- that one ALWAYS comes up.

And then you can't reason with them anymore. Truth doesn't matter. Logic is thrown out the door.

They DON'T CARE what logic proves; they don't like the idea they feel it leads to- and they're done. It doesn't matter if the BIBLE teaches it. It doesn't matter if logic demands it. They don't care. They don't want to EVEN CONSIDER what may be true beyond this point.

Calvinists are the ones who keep thinking at this point- and they are able to go the next step and find out that God is EVEN MORE GLORIOUS than they had dreamed. They find out that God does indeed DECREE all things for the highest of purposes. They find that the Bible is jam packed with this glorious truth.

Arminians are handicapped by irrational emotionalism. They are thus left in the dark on this matter.

 

[matt wade]

When a man works and acts according to his desires he is working or acting freely.

Nonetheless, HIS DESIRES ARE FASHIONED BY EXTERNAL FORCES. Do you understand this?

It's interesting that in these situations you say a man can act freely.

So who gives a man the desire to murder, rape, and molest?

 

[Luke2427]

It's interesting that in these situations you say a man can act freely.

So who gives a man the desire to murder, rape, and molest?

Adam.

You didn't answer my question. A conversation requires that each party respond to each argument the other party makes not just ignore the ones he doesn't want to address and make other arguments of his own.

 

[Steven2006]

Luke,

By the points you are making here are we to assume that you believe that since a gay person has a "desire" for the same s*x, that he/she doesn't have any free will in their sin? If someone in you church came to you with this issue would you tell them that they are made that way, it is not their free choice?

 

[matt wade]

Adam.

You didn't answer my question. A conversation requires that each party respond to each argument the other party makes not just ignore the ones he doesn't want to address and make other arguments of his own.

So anything good a man does, that desire comes from God? Anything bad a man does, that desire comes from Adam?

 

[Luke2427]

Luke,

By the points you are making here are we to assume that you believe that since a gay person has a "desire" for the same s*x, that he/she doesn't have any free will in their sin? If someone in you church came to you with this issue would you tell them that they are made that way, it is not their free choice?

Let me tell you what I find happens in these important discussions on baptistboard.

One will make an argument.

Another will respond ONLY to the parts he chooses and leave the rest alone. And then he will make an argument and one will only respond to what he wants to respond to, etc...

I would like to discuss this with you, but let me make a recommendation that I believe will help us.

Let's write our posts in paragraphs or lines separated by spaces. Then let's respond to EACH paragraph or line each time.

I will begin.

You asked would I counsel someone that it is NOT their free choice.

NO. But I understand free choice differently than I think most Arminians and non-reformed.

I actually believe in free will- but only if it is defined as Augustine, Calvin, Luther and Edwards defined it. The mind choosing; the freedom to do what you want. Free will is the ability to choose to do what you want to do.

The PROBLEM is that the "want" is corrupt for the unregenerate.

The other problem is that the "want" is determined by numerous factors.

Now, do you not agree that there is a reason behind every choice anyone makes?

That reason or reasons causes them to make the choices they make, right?

Now, answer this question, who controls those causes?

 

[matt wade]

Let me tell you what I find happens in these important discussions on baptistboard. [snip]

Why don't you just answer the man's question?

 

[Luke2427]

So anything good a man does, that desire comes from God? Anything bad a man does, that desire comes from Adam?

Matt, I am not JUST going to answer YOUR questions. You are going to answer mine if we are to have a conversation.

Do you think that choices are made spontaneously or do choices have reasons?

Is there a reason why one chooses what he chooses?

 

[Luke2427]

Why don't you just answer the man's question?

I did Matt, why don't YOU answer questions?