Will Jesus succeed at uniting all things to himself?

[Mur]

Malachi 3:2-3 esv
But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.

 

[Mur]

Mark 9:49
For everyone will be salted with fire.

 

[Mur]

Again...

Hebrews 1:3 ESV
He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

 

[Mur]

Zechariah 13:9
And I will put this third into the fire,
and refine them as one refines silver,
and test them as gold is tested.
They will call upon my name,
and I will answer them.
I will say, ‘They are my people’;
and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

1 Peter 1:7 esv
So that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 1:25 esv
I will turn my hand against you and will smelt away your dross as with lye and remove all your alloy.

Isaiah 48:10 esv
Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction

Psalm 66:10 esv
For you, O God, have tested us; you have tried us as silver is tried.

Proverbs 17:3 esv
The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the Lord tests hearts.

Job 23:10 esv
But he knows the way that I take; when he has tried me, I shall come out as gold.

Jeremiah 9:7 esv
Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts: “Behold, I will refine them and test them, for what else can I do, because of my people?



Jeremiah 6:29 esv

The bellows blow fiercely; the lead is consumed by the fire; in vain the refining goes on, for the wicked are not removed.



Proverbs 25:4 esv

Take away the dross from the silver, and the smith has material for a vessel

 

[Mur]

Titus 2:14 esv
Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Ezekiel 22:18-22 esv
Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to me; all of them are bronze and tin and iron and lead in the furnace; they are dross of silver. Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have all become dross, therefore, behold, I will gather you into the midst of Jerusalem. As one gathers silver and bronze and iron and lead and tin into a furnace, to blow the fire on it in order to melt it, so I will gather you in my anger and in my wrath, and I will put you in and melt you. I will gather you and blow on you with the fire of my wrath, and you shall be melted in the midst of it. As silver is melted in a furnace, so you shall be melted in the midst of it, and you shall know that I am the Lord; I have poured out my wrath upon you.”

 

[Mur]

Speaking about terms of purification, the Greek word for torment is also a term relating to refinement. Please read:




◄ 931. basanos ►
Lexical Summary
basanos: Torment, Torture
Original Word: βάσανος
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: basanos
Pronunciation: BAH-sah-nos
Phonetic Spelling: (bas'-an-os)
KJV: torment
NASB: torment, pains
Word Origin: [perhaps remotely from baino "to walk", through the notion of going to the bottom]

1. a touchstone used to test the purity of gold
2. (generally) a test to prove the genuineness of a thing
3. (figuratively) an instrument used in questioning by which one is compelled to divulge the truth
4. (by analogy) torture

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
torment.
Perhaps remotely from the same as basis (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch-stone, i.e. (by analogy) torture -- torment.

see GREEK basis

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 931 básanos – originally, a black, silicon-based stone used as "a touchstone" to test the purity of precious metals (like silver and gold). See 928 (basanízō).

[In the papyri, basanos also means, "touchstone," "test" (so P Oxy I. 58.25, ad 288).

931 (basanois) was "originally (from oriental origin) a touchstone; a 'Lydian stone' used for testing gold because pure gold rubbed on it left a peculiar mark. Then it was used for examination by torture. Sickness was often regarded as 'torture' " (WP, 1, 37).]

Strong's Greek: 931. βάσανος (basanos) -- Torment, Torture Strong's Greek: 931. βάσανος (basanos) -- Torment, Torture

 

[Mur]

The reason that most Christian denominations teach forever punishment is due to the mistranslation of the Koine Greek word "aionion" and its derivatives. You can research that word and some will say it means "eternal" but that would be incorrect because eternal means no beginning and no end and only God is eternal.

Some will say it means "everlasting" or "forever" and still others will say that it means for a period of time or for an age(s). My understanding is that aionion CAN mean forever depending upon the context. I don't know Koine Greek so I can't provide exact definitions. However, I do understand English and I can plainly see when a Bible contradicts itself due to faulty translation. Allow me to provide an example.

Matthew 25:46
King James Version
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Lamentations 3:31
King James Version
31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:

So which of these two KJV verses is correct and which one is erroneous? One says people go into "everlasting" punishment while the other says that God doesn't cast off anyone "for ever".

The KJV and most other English Bibles contain the same mistranslations, including the ESV that I like to use for its ease of reading and understanding. But for some passages I refer to Bibles that provide a literal translation of the Koine Greek, which can make it, well, clunky to read.

Anyway, here is Young's Literal Translation of Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

You see? No more contradiction. People go into the LOF for a period of time, NOT forever!

 

[Mur]

I will sign off for the night with one last statement. Many of the early Christian church fathers believed and taught that ALL will be with God in his Kingdom!

 

[David Lamb]

Of course. It's God's will.

Not so, according to Revelation:

“The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Re 20:10 NKJV)

"Tormented forever and ever" in the lake of fire and brimstone does not fit with being united to Jesus, who is in heaven.

 

[atpollard]

You tell me. I believe that "all things" means ALL THINGS.

I did. The rest of that post presented 3 things that seemed nonsensical to unite “in Christ”, thus “all things” (to my understanding) cannot mean all things without exception. Do you believe that sin and death will be perpetuated through their Union in Christ for all eternity? God forbid it should be so!

While I am generally loathe to discuss Revelation (conversations generate more heat than light), I will point you to the end where God creates a “new heaven and earth” and makes His eternal home among his people … everything else (all evil) having been cast into the lake of fire (the God equivalent of the Burn Barrel where the trash is eliminated). Here we see “all things” which remain are united in Christ (the people Jesus redeemed, dwelling in the New Jerusalem rising from the foundation of the Apostles that Jesus chose, and surrounded by the new “Heaven and earth” (one place) which from John 1 we know “The Word” (Jesus) is the one that creates such things. So “all things” are everything that survives into eternity, and it is included in “all things” because it is “In Christ” (not the other way around).

All Things not in Christ, land in the burn pile with the rest of the trash.

 

[Mur]

All Things not in Christ, land in the burn pile with the rest of the trash.

Ok. So you believe that Jesus will fail to unite all things to him. You also reject a mountain of other scriptures.

 

[David Lamb]

Ok. So you believe that Jesus will fail to unite all things to him. You also reject a mountain of other scriptures.

But you seem to do that, because the Scriptures say that the devil will be tormented "forever and ever" in the Lake of fire, and you seem to ignore that and say that the devil will be united to Christ.

 

[atpollard]

Ok. So you believe that Jesus will fail to unite all things to him. You also reject a mountain of other scriptures.

Posts are accumulating faster than I can read them, so let me just ask:

Have you bothered to discuss any of the verses that do not agree with your position?

How about Matthew 25 [NLT]
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’
37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’
41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’
44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’
45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’
46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

 

[Mur]

But you seem to do that, because the Scriptures say that the devil will be tormented "forever and ever" in the Lake of fire, and you seem to ignore that and say that the devil will be united to Christ.

That's a mistranslation, as I explained earlier in this thread. Here is an accurate translation:

Revelation 20:10
Young's Literal Translation
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

 

[Mur]

46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

Mistranslation.

Matthew 25:46
Young's Literal Translation
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

 

[Charlie24]

Nothing can be done with these who believe God will not leave disobedient man in the Lake of Fire forever.

They reason and twist Scripture to mean what they want it to mean, even though it's not there, making God a liar.

It's like a disease that has to run it's course and nothing can be done.

 

[atpollard]

Mistranslation.

Matthew 25:46
Young's Literal Translation
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

So our promised life in Christ is also only temporary?
It is the EXACT same word and the fates are equal and opposite.
That is the point of the story and verse.

 

[Mur]

Have you bothered to discuss any of the verses that do not agree with your position?

Of course. In my experience all the scripture in the world won't budge the vast majority of Chritians from their doctrine that Jesus tortures people forever in Hell. I just provided a plethora of scriptures that demonstrate that ALL THINGS will be in God's Kingdom and they were all utterly ignored.

So be it.

 

[Mur]

I've provided

So our promised life in Christ is also only temporary?
It is the EXACT same word and the fates are equal and opposite.
That is the point of the story and verse.

I could explain it but why waste any more of my time? It's obvious that you have attained all knowledge of God, his ways, and his plan. Take care.

 

[David Lamb]

That's a mistranslation, as I explained earlier in this thread. Here is an accurate translation:

Revelation 20:10
Young's Literal Translation
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

Whether "to the ages of the ages" as YLT says, or "forever and ever" as ASV, KJV, Bible in Basic English, CEVAustr, EMTV, ERV, ESV, Geneva Bible, GNB, GWV, HCSB, Murdoch, NKJV, RSV, Webster, TRC, and Williams all say (either those exact words, or very similar, like forever more), it certainly does not sound anything like being united with Christ. As for it being a mistranslation, the concordance I use says:

"165 aion [ahee-ohn ]

from the same as 104; n m; TDNT-1:197,31; [{See TDNT 40 }]

AV-ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4, age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age"

104, the word on which it is based, means "always."