Will People Be Condemned for Not Believing in Jesus though They’ve Never Heard His Name?

[Silverhair]

I have dealt with all your Bible verses. It's clear you don't understand what God 8s telling in scripture.
Read and see that God draws each person He has given to Jesus. When they are drawn, they also believe. Those not drawn, don't believe.

But you haven’t believed in me even though you have seen me. However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.

But Jesus replied, “Stop complaining about what I said. For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. As it is written in the Scriptures, ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. (Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.) “I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life.
(John 6:36-37;43-47)

You keep saying you have dealt with those verses {Rom 1:16, 1Ti 2:3-4, Joh 12:32, Joh 3:17} but the question is why do you not believe them.

These are your words "Read and see that God draws each person He has given to Jesus. When they are drawn, they also believe. Those not drawn, don't believe."

This is what we see in the bible regarding who will be drawn to Christ:
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

So if we followed your logic we would have universalism, are you a universalist?

We know that Christ came to save the world which actually is the desire of the Father:
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

What God says and what your calvinism teaches are poles apart. Now which do you think an honest person should be teaching?

You do realize that Joh 6:36-37, 43-47 is Christ speaking to Jews and reminding them that it was through their scriptures that they should have known Him. Those that did trust what their scriptures had said could recognize the Messiah. Some examples: Simeon, all of the disciples that stayed with Him including the Apostles, Mary & Martha, Lazarus.

You even show that those that would receive the teaching of God and believed it would know the Messiah. Your own quote " Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." This was before Christ's crucifixion.

After Christ had risen we see Paul saying the same thing:
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

What is clear is that I trust the bible but I do not trust your calvinist misunderstanding of the bible. Do you think that your calvinism is superior to scripture?

 

[taisto]

You keep saying you have dealt with those verses {Rom 1:16, 1Ti 2:3-4, Joh 12:32, Joh 3:17} but the question is why do you not believe them.

These are your words "Read and see that God draws each person He has given to Jesus. When they are drawn, they also believe. Those not drawn, don't believe."

This is what we see in the bible regarding who will be drawn to Christ:
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

So if we followed your logic we would have universalism, are you a universalist?

We know that Christ came to save the world which actually is the desire of the Father:
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

What God says and what your calvinism teaches are poles apart. Now which do you think an honest person should be teaching?

You do realize that Joh 6:36-37, 43-47 is Christ speaking to Jews and reminding them that it was through their scriptures that they should have known Him. Those that did trust what their scriptures had said could recognize the Messiah. Some examples: Simeon, all of the disciples that stayed with Him including the Apostles, Mary & Martha, Lazarus.

You even show that those that would receive the teaching of God and believed it would know the Messiah. Your own quote " Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me." This was before Christ's crucifixion.

After Christ had risen we see Paul saying the same thing:
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

What is clear is that I trust the bible but I do not trust your calvinist misunderstanding of the bible. Do you think that your calvinism is superior to scripture?

Read what you wrote. Silverhair the issue has nothing to do with us believing the verses. The issue is you interpret the verses from a humanist perspective and I interpret them from a gracious, Sovereign God perspective. We disagree because of how we perceive God. You think God is effected by our free will choices. I think humans are effected by God's free will choices.

Because of that, you spew hatred for your imagined calvinism and I reject humanism. Neither of us are going to budge since we are convinced that the Bible speaks from the perspective we hold. Ultimately you and I will stand before the King and we will know which perspective pleased Him. I will always give God 100% of the credit for His work in saving me. I have no idea what you will do, but when I read your words, it all points to you giving man the credit for causing God to save them. I have quoted you directly where you tell us that man must do something to be saved. Your teaching is graceless and not what God teaches us in the Bible.

In the above quote, you have merely fallen upon your philosophy, quoting verses that actually destroy your argument and then barking at your phantom calvin. You are just a clanging gong and banging cymbal in my ears.
You have stated your point. I have stated mine. We have nothing more to say.

 

[Silverhair]

Read what you wrote. Silverhair the issue has nothing to do with us believing the verses. The issue is you interpret the verses from a humanist perspective and I interpret them from a gracious, Sovereign God perspective. We disagree because of how we perceive God. You think God is effected by our free will choices. I think humans are effected by God's free will choices.

Because of that, you spew hatred for your imagined calvinism and I reject humanism. Neither of us are going to budge since we are convinced that the Bible speaks from the perspective we hold. Ultimately you and I will stand before the King and we will know which perspective pleased Him. I will always give God 100% of the credit for His work in saving me. I have no idea what you will do, but when I read your words, it all points to you giving man the credit for causing God to save them. I have quoted you directly where you tell us that man must do something to be saved. Your teaching is graceless and not what God teaches us in the Bible.

In the above quote, you have merely fallen upon your philosophy, quoting verses that actually destroy your argument and then barking at your phantom calvin. You are just a clanging gong and banging cymbal in my ears.
You have stated your point. I have stated mine. We have nothing more to say.

The fact that you can not see the error in your view is telling. You are relying on pagan philosophy whether you know it or not. FYI I am not a humanist I am a Christian. But I am glad to see that you reject humanism, so do I.

God is sovereign and it would be rather a good idea if you would actually let Him be. You keep saying God has to save people your way but the bible disagrees with your way.

Actually God is affected by human response to the gospel. If we will humble ourselves and call out to Him for forgiveness of our sin and mercy He will save us. Jas 4:6, 10 Remember it is by grace we are saved through faith. Eph 2:8

Have you not read Eph 1:13 or Rom 1:16 or Rom 10:13? God only saves those that trust in His son or do you think there is another way?

The root of your deterministic view is based in paganism and it would be worthwhile for you to spend some time checking it out. But I do doubt that you will. I do pray that God will, in His mercy, open your eyes to the truth.

 

[taisto]

The fact that you can not see the error in your view is telling. You are relying on pagan philosophy whether you know it or not. FYI I am not a humanist I am a Christian. But I am glad to see that you reject humanism, so do I.

God is sovereign and it would be rather a good idea if you would actually let Him be. You keep saying God has to save people your way but the bible disagrees with your way.

Actually God is affected by human response to the gospel. If we will humble ourselves and call out to Him for forgiveness of our sin and mercy He will save us. Jas 4:6, 10 Remember it is by grace we are saved through faith. Eph 2:8

Have you not read Eph 1:13 or Rom 1:16 or Rom 10:13? God only saves those that trust in His son or do you think there is another way?

The root of your deterministic view is based in paganism and it would be worthwhile for you to spend some time checking it out. But I do doubt that you will. I do pray that God will, in His mercy, open your eyes to the truth.

 

[Silverhair]

View attachment 8574

@taisto you do realize that they used a gong to wake people up. Open your eyes to the truth of scripture. When your understanding of scripture is based on pagan philosophy then you should question what you are supporting.

Why are you so reluctant to check that out, are you afraid of what you will find?

 

[canadyjd]

Salvation is only through Jesus. But I am not going to put restrictions on how Jesus saves people, and I am certainly not going to say that Jesus needs ME to save people.

Again, all people have the opportunity to be saved through Jesus. God desires for all human beings to be saved, and He has provided sufficient means that this goal be accomplished. If any are not saved, it is because they reject God's provision of salvation by their own agency.

God determined the one and only means by which people come into a right relationship. This is found in 1 Corinthians and other places.

God was well pleased, through the foolishness that f the message preached (Jesus Christ and Him crucified) to save those who believe.

Peace to you

 

[Arthur King]

God determined the one and only means by which people come into a right relationship. This is found in 1 Corinthians and other places.

God was well pleased, through the foolishness that f the message preached (Jesus Christ and Him crucified) to save those who believe.

Peace to you

I agree with everything you said here. But again, how Jesus reaches people with the gospel is not something I am going to place restrictions on. And I am certainly not going to argue that Jesus needs me, or anyone else, to reach the people he wants to reach.

You need to have a higher view of God's sovereignty.

 

[Reynolds]

This has always bothered me. Clark Pinnock, who was a founding member of the Evangelical Theological Society, ended up in Open Theism, then one who believed in Annihilationism.

In the book on Open Theism, he said that he could not believe in A God who would condemn people who had never heard the name of Jesus.

I know Jesus said he was the Way. But will there be grace for those who never heard?

Paul made that pretty plain. Man received enough natural revelation to make him guilty of his sin.

 

[MB]

The Bible tells us that God drew us to Jesus and Jesus spoke into us new life. Therefore, we heard the gospel and responded in faith.


Indeed God draws all whom He has given to Jesus. God chooses who is drawn and precisely because God draws them, they hear the word of Jesus and believe.

Bunyan's "Pilgrims Progress" is so very good in showing us what happens to men who attempt to go to God on their own terms. The outcome is eternal damnation. There is no other way that a person can be saved except that the Father draws them to Christ and Christ speaks life into them.


The souls of men are in open rebellion to God. Without God choosing to draw them and Jesus speaking life into them, they will forever remain in open rebellion. "How can anyone be saved? With man it is impossible, but with God, all things are possible."

Death is an uncrossable chasm that separates us from God. We cannot cross it until God regenerates us and gives us the bridge to cross.

God doesn't just save men they have to believe first. Belief is faith and with out it. Men are lost..
MB

 

[Alcott]

You must have some posting or thread or rule somewhere that indicates we have some obligation to answer your questions, yes or no.

I have no such rule, but you have no lookout to say I can't post those questions. So peel your taters however you want to.

 

[Alan Gross]

I have no such rule, but you have no lookout to say I can't post those questions. So peel your taters however you want to.

If you want straight answers, shoot straight with us.

Ask a straight question instead of a tangled and bewildering one, unless that's what you're trying to do, is to just confuse the issue further.

 

[taisto]

God doesn't just save men they have to believe first.

Translation: Men must cause God to save them by doing an act of belief. Only then can God save them.

Belief is faith and with out it. Men are lost..
MB

You have it reversed.
Faith causes belief. Without it, men are dead in sin. Therefore God does a gracious work in our lives by breathing life into us and giving us faith by which we believe.

No unregenerate person will ever display faith, which is precisely why, when the disciples asked who could be saved, Jesus said, "with men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

 

[Silverhair]

Translation: Men must cause God to save them by doing an act of belief. Only then can God save them.


You have it reversed.
Faith causes belief. Without it, men are dead in sin. Therefore God does a gracious work in our lives by breathing life into us and giving us faith by which we believe.

No unregenerate person will ever display faith, which is precisely why, when the disciples asked who could be saved, Jesus said, "with men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

@taisto post Calvinism

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,. In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise. So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. The Bible

@taisto you continue to ignore clear scripture, WHY?
Man does not save himself, only God can save and He has chosen to save those that believe.

"Who then can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible." Mar 10:26-27
And the bible shows you just how and why that happens, now @taisto all you have to do is believe it.

 

[canadyjd]

I agree with everything you said here. But again, how Jesus reaches people with the gospel is not something I am going to place restrictions on. And I am certainly not going to argue that Jesus needs me, or anyone else, to reach the people he wants to reach.

You need to have a higher view of God's sovereignty.

Brother, I believe salvation is a work of God from start to finish. I believe every single person God has chosen for salvation will come into a right relationship with God through faith in Jesus.

My view of God’s sovereignty could not be higher.

But thank you for the advice anyway.

peace to you

 

[Salty]

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[Silverhair]

Brother, I believe salvation is a work of God from start to finish. I believe every single person God has chosen for salvation will come into a right relationship with God through faith in Jesus.

My view of God’s sovereignty could not be higher.

But thank you for the advice anyway.

peace to you

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

While indeed many are called to the gospel-feast, it will be manifest by their disregarding it, there are but few chosen in such a sense as finally to partake of its blessings. This is indeed a dreadful truth, the greatest part of those to whom the gospel is offered, will either openly reject or secretly disobey it. In short, many hear, few believe. Individual response is essential if they are to be chosen by God unto salvation. While many may be members of the visible, not all are of the invisible church. Hebrews 11:6

Someone may say, “Many are called by Christ but not chosen by God.” Fair enough.
But note three inescapable facts:

1) Nowhere in the New Testament are we informed that the chosen were unconditionally chosen — nowhere. That is an idea imposed upon the biblical teaching of election.

2) If we receive the argument quoted above, that a person can be called but not unconditionally chosen, then that reveals a character flaw in the Lord. Does Christ call someone only for the Father to reject them?

3) However, if we adhere to the concept that the called, or invited, can fail to be among the chosen through rejection of the Son, then we properly frame the matter, allowing each person invited into the kingdom of God as being responsible to trust in Christ, and thus keep the integrity of Christ intact.

 

[canadyjd]

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

While indeed many are called to the gospel-feast, it will be manifest by their disregarding it, there are but few chosen in such a sense as finally to partake of its blessings. This is indeed a dreadful truth, the greatest part of those to whom the gospel is offered, will either openly reject or secretly disobey it. In short, many hear, few believe. Individual response is essential if they are to be chosen by God unto salvation. While many may be members of the visible, not all are of the invisible church. Hebrews 11:6

Someone may say, “Many are called by Christ but not chosen by God.” Fair enough.
But note three inescapable facts:

1) Nowhere in the New Testament are we informed that the chosen were unconditionally chosen — nowhere. That is an idea imposed upon the biblical teaching of election.

2) If we receive the argument quoted above, that a person can be called but not unconditionally chosen, then that reveals a character flaw in the Lord. Does Christ call someone only for the Father to reject them?

3) However, if we adhere to the concept that the called, or invited, can fail to be among the chosen through rejection of the Son, then we properly frame the matter, allowing each person invited into the kingdom of God as being responsible to trust in Christ, and thus keep the integrity of Christ intact.

Your argument makes God unaware of how folks will respond to the gospel prior to hearing it. Either God knows everything before it happens, from the beginning of existence, through the great throne judgment and beyond, or He doesn’t.

Your statement that such truth reveals a character flaw in God is beyond preposterous.

God knows who will respond, but He demands the gospel to go to all, not just the elect. Are you saying God is lying to the folks that hear the gospel, that salvation is possible, even though God already knows they will reject it?

Do they really have a valid offer if God already knows who will believe and who will reject?

peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Your argument makes God unaware of how folks will respond to the gospel prior to hearing it. Either God knows everything before it happens, from the beginning of existence, through the great throne judgment and beyond, or He doesn’t.

Your statement that such truth reveals a character flaw in God is beyond preposterous.

God knows who will respond, but He demands the gospel to go to all, not just the elect. Are you saying God is lying to the folks that hear the gospel, that salvation is possible, even though God already knows they will reject it?

Do they really have a valid offer if God already knows who will believe and who will reject?

peace to you

There is a vast difference between God foreknowing who will trust in His son and God causing someone to trust in His son. God is Omniscient so no surprises but you seem to think that the only way He can not be surprised is if He exercises meticulous control over all that happens. Not a biblical view but it’s what you seem to hold to.

How does my argument make God unaware of who will accept and who will reject the gospel message? You do know that God is Omniscient, right? So since He is Omniscient then there would be no surprises for Him. So God knows that “In short, many hear, few believe. Individual response is essential if they are to be chosen by God unto salvation.” Eph 1:13 Did you not see this or did you not understand what it said?

I have had Calvinist’s use the argument that “Many are called by Christ but not chosen by God.” So I was responding to the argument that a person can be called but not unconditionally chosen. You have God working against Himself. The bible is clear that Christ will draw all to Himself so we have Christ call someone only for the Father to reject them? Even though His desire is for all to be saved. Or are you saying that “all” only means some?

However, if we adhere to the concept that the called, or invited, can fail to be among the chosen through rejection of the Son, then we properly frame the matter, allowing each person invited into the kingdom of God as being responsible to trust in Christ, and thus keep the integrity of Christ and of the gospel offer intact.

You ask “Are you saying God is lying to the folks that hear the gospel, that salvation is possible, even though God already knows they will reject it?” You do not seem to be able to understand the concept that God can know all things without causing all things.

If we look at your DoG/TULIP then Calvinism does present God as lying.

“If salvation is not genuinely available to all, why did Christ command His disciples to go into all the world and ‘preach the gospel to every creature’? Is that not giving a false impression, both to His disciples and to all who would read their account of Christ’s teachings in the four Gospels?” Dave Hunt


But what do we see in Calvinism:

Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own theology precludes this, but you it seems do not want to acknowledge that fact.

 

[canadyjd]

There is a vast difference between God foreknowing who will trust in His son and God causing someone to trust in His son. God is Omniscient so no surprises but you seem to think that the only way He can not be surprised is if He exercises meticulous control over all that happens. Not a biblical view but it’s what you seem to hold to.

How does my argument make God unaware of who will accept and who will reject the gospel message? You do know that God is Omniscient, right? So since He is Omniscient then there would be no surprises for Him. So God knows that “In short, many hear, few believe. Individual response is essential if they are to be chosen by God unto salvation.” Eph 1:13 Did you not see this or did you not understand what it said?

I have had Calvinist’s use the argument that “Many are called by Christ but not chosen by God.” So I was responding to the argument that a person can be called but not unconditionally chosen. You have God working against Himself. The bible is clear that Christ will draw all to Himself so we have Christ call someone only for the Father to reject them? Even though His desire is for all to be saved. Or are you saying that “all” only means some?

However, if we adhere to the concept that the called, or invited, can fail to be among the chosen through rejection of the Son, then we properly frame the matter, allowing each person invited into the kingdom of God as being responsible to trust in Christ, and thus keep the integrity of Christ and of the gospel offer intact.

You ask “Are you saying God is lying to the folks that hear the gospel, that salvation is possible, even though God already knows they will reject it?” You do not seem to be able to understand the concept that God can know all things without causing all things.

If we look at your DoG/TULIP then Calvinism does present God as lying.

“If salvation is not genuinely available to all, why did Christ command His disciples to go into all the world and ‘preach the gospel to every creature’? Is that not giving a false impression, both to His disciples and to all who would read their account of Christ’s teachings in the four Gospels?” Dave Hunt


But what do we see in Calvinism:

Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own theology precludes this, but you it seems do not want to acknowledge that fact.

Christ “draws all to Himself”. Ok, let’s think this through.

God is omnipotent. He is Al powerful. If He desired, He could exert whatever “drawing, calling, conviction” influence is necessary on each person for that person to be “saved”. Do you agree?

But not all are saved? Why not? Obviously, for many, God doesn’t exert enough “drawing, calling, influence” for those folks to be saved.

The only options are…..

1. God uses the same amount of “drawing, calling, conviction” on each person to make it “fair”. In this case, there is something different about the people who respond that make them more attuned to God’s influence in their lives.

In other words, they are “special”.

That God would use the same amount of influence on all, knowing many won’t respond, is in fact “choosing” some for salvation and passing over others.

or.

2. God had specifically chosen His elect for salvation and so moved in their lives to make it happen. There is nothing special about the elect, other than they receive God’s mercy at the pleasure of His will.

So, your belief makes those who are saved “special”, different from others because they are more closely attuned to God’s influence and respond with faith.

And, your belief also has God choosing who will be saved because He exert the same influence on all, knowing only the “special” will respond.

My belief has God pouring out His grace on His chosen according to His will.

My view is biblical

peace to you

 

[Salty]

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