Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

[church mouse guy]

You are insisting that Gabriel's inspired prophecy was in error.

The 70 weeks/490 years are still running on; the wonderful promises concerning the Messiah were not fulfilled.

Even worse, Jesus' triumphant claim that the saving work given him by his Father was FINISHED was mistaken.

May I suggest that it is you who is in error, not Daniel, not Gabriel & not Jesus?

No, I am not saying what you say that I am saying. I am on my desktop at the moment so I can copy and paste and give a fuller answer since I am not very adept at doing that on my cell phone.

Daniel 9:24 (KJV) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The promises of Daniel 9:24 and others deal with restoring a sort of garden of Eden or ending evil on earth. Transgression is to be finished on earth; there is still transgression on earth. There is to be an end of sins; there are still sins on earth. There is to be everlasting righteousness on earth--there isn't.

Daniel 9:26 (KJV) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off....

Jesus was crucified and cut off. All of the good things are awaiting the Blessed Hope when the rest of the prophecy will be fulfilled by Jesus.

The return of Jesus:

Revelation 19:11-21 (KJV) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is what it will be like when Daniel 9:24 is totally fulfilled:

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[Covenanter]

No, I am not saying what you say that I am saying.

And I say that you are saying what I say you are saying ...

Daniel 9:24 (KJV) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The promises of Daniel 9:24 and others deal with restoring a sort of garden of Eden or ending evil on earth. Transgression is to be finished on earth; there is still transgression on earth. There is to be an end of sins; there are still sins on earth. There is to be everlasting righteousness on earth--there isn't.

Daniel 9:26 (KJV) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off....

Jesus was crucified and cut off. All of the good things are awaiting the Blessed Hope when the rest of the prophecy will be fulfilled by Jesus.

Jeremiah had prophesied 70 years - now fulfilled so Daniel prayed. The response was 70 weeks (of years) would see completion of God's dealing with his people through his Messiah.

By his incarnation, taking the nature of man, born of a virgin into the family line of Abraham & David, Jesus lived as a man under the Law of God, yet without sin. After his baptism & anointing John introduced Jesus to Israel as "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." Jesus was the spotless lamb of God symbolised in the sacrifices and specifically prophesied by Isaiah 53. That sacrificed ended the ritual animal sacrifices as prophesied by Gabriel.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.... "​

The demands of obedience required under the Old Covenant were perfectly fulfilled by the LORD Jesus Christ, and he established the prophesied New Covenant in his own blood.

No further man-made temple or sacrifice is required - it would amount to blasphemy. Note in Hebrews 10 -

9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.​

Jesus completed, FINISHED his God-given saving work as prophesied by Gabriel. He established the Gospel of repentance & faith in Christ secured by the blood of the New Covenant. The present age is not a parenthesis but the prophesied age when God's blessing for all families, all nations, is being applied to individual believers - God's elect, God's redeemed people.

All that remains is for Jesus to return for resurrection & judgment, & to bring into existence the NH&NE where there will be perfect righteousness - a Paradise better then Eden.

 

[church mouse guy]

So do you think that there has been an end to sin?

 

[Covenanter]

So do you think that there has been an end to sin?

YES in accordance with prophecy - Heb. 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Was Gabriel mistaken? Could he also be mistaken in his word to Zechariah -

Luke 1:16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
....... you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in their own time.​

and Mary -

31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”​

Is Jesus, are we, still waiting for Jesus to begin his reign? Note Heb. 10 -

12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
​

I believe that is right to say that all the prophecies have been eternally & perfectly accomplished by our LORD, and are being implemented in real time.

Although we do sin in practice, the sin of God's redeemed people has indeed been ended by Christ, & we are seen as sinless in God's sight.

 

[church mouse guy]

YES in accordance with prophecy - Heb. 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Was Gabriel mistaken? Could he also be mistaken in his word to Zechariah -

Luke 1:16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
....... you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in their own time.​

and Mary -

31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”​

Is Jesus, are we, still waiting for Jesus to begin his reign? Note Heb. 10 -

12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
​

I believe that is right to say that all the prophecies have been eternally & perfectly accomplished by our LORD, and are being implemented in real time.

Although we do sin in practice, the sin of God's redeemed people has indeed been ended by Christ, & we are seen as sinless in God's sight.

So there are no more sins anywhere in the world?

Daniel 9:24 (KJV) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[ntchristian]

And I say that you are saying what I say you are saying ...


Jeremiah had prophesied 70 years - now fulfilled so Daniel prayed. The response was 70 weeks (of years) would see completion of God's dealing with his people through his Messiah.

By his incarnation, taking the nature of man, born of a virgin into the family line of Abraham & David, Jesus lived as a man under the Law of God, yet without sin. After his baptism & anointing John introduced Jesus to Israel as "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." Jesus was the spotless lamb of God symbolised in the sacrifices and specifically prophesied by Isaiah 53. That sacrificed ended the ritual animal sacrifices as prophesied by Gabriel.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.... "​

The demands of obedience required under the Old Covenant were perfectly fulfilled by the LORD Jesus Christ, and he established the prophesied New Covenant in his own blood.

No further man-made temple or sacrifice is required - it would amount to blasphemy. Note in Hebrews 10 -

9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.​

Jesus completed, FINISHED his God-given saving work as prophesied by Gabriel. He established the Gospel of repentance & faith in Christ secured by the blood of the New Covenant. The present age is not a parenthesis but the prophesied age when God's blessing for all families, all nations, is being applied to individual believers - God's elect, God's redeemed people.

All that remains is for Jesus to return for resurrection & judgment, & to bring into existence the NH&NE where there will be perfect righteousness - a Paradise better then Eden.

I'm not sure where I stand with regard to eschatology, except for this: I don't believe the church is just a parenthesis, until it is taken out of here so God can then deal with His true center of history, Israel. No, I believe the church is the true center of history, the redeemed from all nations and races, the NEW Covenant, the new Israel -- the spiritual Israel, not physical Israel. Anything less, to me, denies and negates the person and work of Jesus Christ.

 

[church mouse guy]

I'm not sure where I stand with regard to eschatology, except for this: I don't believe the church is just a parenthesis, until it is taken out of here so God can then deal with His true center of history, Israel. No, I believe the church is the true center of history, the redeemed from all nations and races, the NEW Covenant, the new Israel -- the spiritual Israel, not physical Israel. Anything less, to me, denies and negates the person and work of Jesus Christ.

So do you classify your theology as preterist, also?

 

[ntchristian]

So do you classify your theology as preterist, also?

No. Not sure what to label it, though.

 

[church mouse guy]

No. Not sure what to label it, though.

Do you agree that there are no more sins on earth?

 

[Covenanter]

Do you agree that there are no more sins on earth?

I am getting more puzzled by your interpretation of prophecy.

We all agree that in the NH&NE will be there will be perfect righteous & all the redeemed will live in sinless perfection.

I have shown that Jesus declared that he had FINISHED his work given by his Father and that the Apostles in their preaching & writing believed prophecy was fulfilled.

What prophetic scenario do you envisage would have fulfilled prophecy - particularly Dan. 9 - apart from the situation we see in the New Covenant Scriptures & ultimately in the NH&NE? The flood did not restore earth to its Edenic state.

 

[church mouse guy]

I am getting more puzzled by your interpretation of prophecy.

We all agree that in the NH&NE will be there will be perfect righteous & all the redeemed will live in sinless perfection.

I have shown that Jesus declared that he had FINISHED his work given by his Father and that the Apostles in their preaching & writing believed prophecy was fulfilled.

What prophetic scenario do you envisage would have fulfilled prophecy - particularly Dan. 9 - apart from the situation we see in the New Covenant Scriptures & ultimately in the NH&NE? The flood did not restore earth to its Edenic state.

Jesus has not returned and He was cut off so we are awaiting the end of sins, etc.

 

[Covenanter]

Jesus has not returned and He was cut off so we are awaiting the end of sins, etc.

Certainly he was cut off as prophesied - but I've news for you - he rose from the dead.

And as I understand your understanding -
we are waiting for Jesus' second coming;
possibly preceded by the rapture of living believers;
followed by 7 years tribulation that includes 3 1/2 years peace;
followed by the personal return of Jesus, with a sword in his mouth, together with resurrected saints all on white horses;
a war of great slaughter;
1,000 years during which Jesus reigns in person from Jerusalem;
that peaceful earth being inhabited by resurrected saints & subdued unbelievers;
an earth where sin is not evident but still exists in the hearts & souls of the unbelievers;
at the end of the 1,000 years, Satan is released to rally the unbelievers in such a conflict that only divine intervention - fire from heaven - saves Jerusalem from a siege;
final judgment;
Thus sin continues on earth for over 3,500 years - 500 weeks rather than 70.
NH&NE - at last.

Thus by my understanding of your misunderstanding, the 70 weeks, 490 years runs on for over 3,500 years from the date of the prophecy - if Jesus returns in this century.

Go on - now tell me that that means the earth will exist for ONE week - 7,000 years so that that 3,500 years is exactly half a week .....

I believe Scripture can be understood as given by Christians aided by the Holy Spirit. We do not need futurist fantasies.

I wrote -

I am getting more puzzled by your interpretation of prophecy.

We all agree that in the NH&NE will be there will be perfect righteous & all the redeemed will live in sinless perfection.

I have shown that Jesus declared that he had FINISHED his work given by his Father and that the Apostles in their preaching & writing believed prophecy was fulfilled.

What prophetic scenario do you envisage would have fulfilled prophecy - particularly Dan. 9 - apart from the situation we see in the New Covenant Scriptures & ultimately in the NH&NE? The flood did not restore earth to its Edenic state.

 

[Reynolds]

I came across this:
"This second temple lasted until AD 70, when it was razed to the ground by Roman soldiers under Titus. Today, many orthodox Jews long to re-establish the temple and its ancient systems, including the sacrifices. Some even hope that the story of Cyrus will be repeated by a modern ruler.

These Jews took great encouragement when Donald Trump won the 2016 presidential election in the United States because they remembered his promise to recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. They also note that Russian leader Vladimir Putin has expressed a desire for the temple to be restored. “We are poised to rebuild the Temple,” said Rabbi Hillel Weiss, spokesman for a group called the Nascent Sanhedrin"..The third temple prophecy

Not will, its when.

 

[church mouse guy]

Certainly he was cut off as prophesied - but I've news for you - he rose from the dead.

And as I understand your understanding -
we are waiting for Jesus' second coming;
possibly preceded by the rapture of living believers;
followed by 7 years tribulation that includes 3 1/2 years peace;
followed by the personal return of Jesus, with a sword in his mouth, together with resurrected saints all on white horses;
a war of great slaughter;
1,000 years during which Jesus reigns in person from Jerusalem;
that peaceful earth being inhabited by resurrected saints & subdued unbelievers;
an earth where sin is not evident but still exists in the hearts & souls of the unbelievers;
at the end of the 1,000 years, Satan is released to rally the unbelievers in such a conflict that only divine intervention - fire from heaven - saves Jerusalem from a siege;
final judgment;
Thus sin continues on earth for over 3,500 years - 500 weeks rather than 70.
NH&NE - at last.

Thus by my understanding of your misunderstanding, the 70 weeks, 490 years runs on for over 3,500 years from the date of the prophecy - if Jesus returns in this century.

Go on - now tell me that that means the earth will exist for ONE week - 7,000 years so that that 3,500 years is exactly half a week .....

I believe Scripture can be understood as given by Christians aided by the Holy Spirit. We do not need futurist fantasies.

I wrote -

Don't be silly. That idea doesn't help your viewpoint either. Not only are you saying that prophecy is wrong but you are still not saying when there will be an end to sins here on earth. Your silly counting scheme is like calling the intermission at the theater as a part of the author's play.

 

[ntchristian]

Do you agree that there are no more sins on earth?

No. Not sure I get your point.

 

[church mouse guy]

No. Not sure I get your point.

Daniel 9:24 (KJV) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel said that there would be an end to sins on earth among other things. Do you think that this has happened?

 

[ntchristian]

Daniel 9:24 (KJV) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel said that there would be an end to sins on earth among other things. Do you think that this has happened?

No.

But let me add that while I remain open to being convinced on some eschatological issues, I am decidedly not a dispensationalist or Christian Zionist.

 

[Covenanter]

Thus by my understanding of your misunderstanding, the 70 weeks, 490 years runs on for over 3,500 years from the date of the prophecy - if Jesus returns in this century.

Don't be silly. That idea doesn't help your viewpoint either. Not only are you saying that prophecy is wrong but you are still not saying when there will be an end to sins here on earth. Your silly counting scheme is like calling the intermission at the theater as a part of the author's play.

3,500 years instead of the prophesied 490 years cannot be considered analogous to "the intermission at the theater." The 70 weeks prophecy is very specific & certainly does not include the scenario taught by futurists.

Daniel 9:24 (KJV) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel said that there would be an end to sins on earth among other things. Do you think that this has happened?

Did he? We're considering Gabriel's God given prophecy.

What by your understanding needed to happen by the end of the 490 years for "an end to sins on earth?"

Why do you reject the interpretation taught in the NT, the New Covenant Scriptures? The understanding that by his life, death & resurrection, Jesus cleansed & redeemed the people of God of all ethnicities who by repentance & faith accepted the prophesied reconciliation to their Saviour God.

 

[Covenanter]

I'm not sure where I stand with regard to eschatology, except for this: I don't believe the church is just a parenthesis, until it is taken out of here so God can then deal with His true center of history, Israel. No, I believe the church is the true center of history, the redeemed from all nations and races, the NEW Covenant, the new Israel -- the spiritual Israel, not physical Israel. Anything less, to me, denies and negates the person and work of Jesus Christ.

So do you classify your theology as preterist, also?

No. Not sure what to label it, though.

CMG wants to "label" you & your theology. If you accept a label he will define you according to his (mis)understanding of the label, rather than by what you actually believe.

 

[church mouse guy]

CMG wants to "label" you & your theology. If you accept a label he will define you according to his (mis)understanding of the label, rather than by what you actually believe.

What is wrong with calling preterism as preterism? Are you saying that that is a sin? I thought that you said that there are no more sins?