Will the Lake of Fire Ever Go Out?

Actually, I know very little about SDA, so I am in no position to make an assessment. I actually thought I read that your were Baptist in your profile when you first came here. However, I did think it wierd of your views of hell and being a Baptist. The only thing I recognized and know about them is this idea you are talking of about soul sleep. As for the other groups, I leave it up to God to work that out. That said, Scripture is clear about who is saved.

"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9, ESV

This is where most of the cults get hung up. Those who say that Jesus is not Lord and is not God teach a false gospel. That is how I assess groups to see whether they at least get salvation right. To the best of my knowledge, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons to not teach this. I just talked with a JW the other day and he dodged that point every time we brought the conversation back to who Jesus is.

Bringing up Romans 10:9 makes me wonder what you do with I Peter 3:18-20. Who did Christ preach to? These spirits are evidently from the days of Noah. How could he preach to them if they were asleep, unconcious? I know some pastors put you to sleep, but I think Christ's preaching would be different!

Neal</font>[/QUOTE]Jesus is LORD! You can check my profile, it does say SDA, it says also that the last Baptist church I attended was in AR, because I used to be baptist.

Ok 1Pet 3....

I do not see it IN ANY way shape or form the way you do.

With that said.

1Pe 3:13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
1Pe 3:14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.I LOVE THAT VERSE!!

1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Jesus was quickened (made alive) by the Spirit
The next statement CANNOT MEAN that He went to them in 'ghost' form, because it JUST said, He was alive.

BY WHICH, by the same Spirit, He preached to the 'spirits' in 'prison', which most take to mean dead people in paradise, right?

WRONG. Jesus did not go anywhere in the 2 days He was in the tomb. Jesus slept, rested if you will, during the Sabbath day, and rose sometime between sundown on 'Saturday' and the early morning on Sunday. He DID not GO to hell. This passage DOES NOT prove He 'went to hell' and preached to the old people in paradise who died before the flood. Want to know how I know?

Even if there was such a place, NONE of the antideluvians would be there. NONE.

Gen 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Noah and his family were the ONLY ones who were not 'wicked and evil'. There is NO way, I repeat, NO way that God would send His Son to 'paradise' to preach to those who had Noah preaching to them for 150 years. They had their chance!

Make sense?

Now that I have said what I think it DOES NOT mean, I will say what I think it DOES mean.

After Jesus rose from the grave, were there any people who followed Him IN PRISON? Since the OTHER doctrine as applied the word prison to mean 'paradise' I too have applied it to something else. The disciples when Jesus had been dead, and had not shown Himself yet to them, and they did not know where He was were 'in a cage'. Very metaphorical, I know, but follow me. Let's see:

Mar 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Mar 16:10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
Mar 16:11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
Mar 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
Mar 16:13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

There is actually several references to the Apostles being in ACTUAL prison during the period just after Christ Ascended. They were released by Angels.

There is a few different meanings I take this passage to mean, as you can see. But the main one is, God is showing that through His Spirit, He can not only bring life to the dead, but also the importance of Baptism. I think that is actually the theme of that chapter, to see Jesus, learn of His life, and atonement, and to be baptized. In a nutshell!

God Bless.

[ January 29, 2003, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

Depends on what translation you use, I guess.

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water." I Peter 3:18-20, ESV

Please note that the ESV has 'spirit' as lower case.

Maybe you do, but I don't. Prison does not equal paradise to me. Sounds more like torment.

I never said they were in 'paradise'. Prison hardly sounds like 'paradise' to me.

Your interpretation is fine and good, but what do you do with the mention of "the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah"? I noticed you just brushed aside any reference to the days of Noah and applied this verse to the apostles. Truly amazing. I never knew they were alive and disobedient during the days of Noah.

Neal</font>[/QUOTE]Uh, read it again, and this time READ IT. There is like 2 whole paragraphs about the antideluvians. You do know that means, people who lived before the flood, right?

Ok, firstly, IF, (big IF) Jesus went anywhere 'in the Spirit' AFTER He was made alive by it, He went to paradise, because IF there were people in torment, HE would NOT have been preaching to them. Read what I already wrote about the antideluvians, and you will understand. Those people were REALLY bad, SO bad that God KILLED EVERYTHING on this planet except for 8 people! Do you honestly think that He was going there to give them another chance????? That makes no sense.

I think that you are reading 2 different thoughts together as if they were one. Remember the punctuation? That is something translators put in.
18. Because even Christ once concerning sins suffered, {the}just for {the} unjust, so that you he could bring to God, being put to death truly - in {the} flesh, made alive but by {the} Spirit.

19. In which also to {the} in prison spirits going He proclaimed 20. to disobeying ones then,

when once waited (for a 150 years) the of God longsuffering in {the} days of Noah, having been prepared a ship, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

That is a word for word translation. Straight from the Greek.
What is the ESV?
Also, I feel that taking these 3 verses out of that passage loses the context, because the whole mention of Noah there is for the antitype association of Baptism. Also, just because these 'testimonies' are put together, does not mean that they happened together. There is a pretty cool point here, that the same ETERNAL God who 'quickened' the body of Jesus was there with Noah, and all those 'spirits' (pneuma- breath, life, also Holy Spirit) who were in 'prison' were ministered to by Him as well.
Then again, this could mean NONE of that, and could simply be referring to those who were in the special resurrection in Jerusalem, which we know happened sometime after Jesus was resurrected (quickened/ ALIVE):

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It said in the Peter passage that He 'proclaimed' to them something. Maybe what He proclaimed was to 'WAKE UP!' Jesus was quickened first, THEN 'He' proclaimed to the spirits, but is that 'He' speaking of the Holy Spirit, which quickened Him or of Jesus?

Hmm.

 

Get a grip Neal, I didn't say YOU said that, I am referring to a very popular doctrine, that as you can see by DHK's last post HE agrees with.

I am arguing against that doctrine, not something you said.

In your first post you didn't really give me a whole lot to go on, so I filled in the blanks with what I have heard of that passage.

Remember I asked you "RIGHT?" If you don't agree, then cool. I didn't ever say NEAL SAID....

God Bless.

 

It was only Jesus who died. It was the Holy Spirit who made Him alive again. There are 3 parts to God. Other wise HOW could Jesus have said "Father, why have you forsaken me" and "Into thy hands I commit My Spirit"?

Jesus took upon the sins of the whole world and at that moment BECAME sin for us. When Jesus was here IN FLESH, He was a separate being. Most of these passages make the doctrine of God being 'just one God' look impossible, but we know that the 3 part God, is ONE. How that is, I don't know. But it is.

Further evidence is that the Holy Spirit decended upon Him like a dove at His baptism. If Jesus IS the Holy Spirit, how could it decend on Him? If Jesus IS the Father, why did He say "Why have YOU forsaken me?" ? Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane?

There were not any dead people from the flood that were worthy of being saved. Those who were worthy WERE ON THE ARK. PERIOD.

It says that right in the flood record in Genesis.

Jesus was 'quickened' which means MADE ALIVE, and it says BY the Spirit, NOT in the Spirit. HE WAS ALIVE. His BODY was resurrected.
It says that the SAME Spirit (by which also) that made Him alive, made it possible for Him to proclaim something to the 'spirits' in 'prison'.

Jesus was not in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights.
Friday, as the Sabbath was approaching, He died.
Saturday, on the Sabbath He was resting in the tomb.
Sunday, the disciples found the tomb empty.

Which means sometime between Sundown on Saturday and sunup on Sunday, He arose.

That is only one day and 2 nights.

'God is a Spirit' you said.
Yes, one part of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit, but how were we made in the IMAGE of God, if He is not a physical person?

Before the fall of man, Adam and Eve both had immortal bodies, LIKE God. They could not be sick, or harmed, or killed. They were made in His image. Like a mirror. Flesh. Spirit. They were living souls. When they sinned, whatever it was that made them immortal, went bye bye, and they were immediatly 'translated' into mortal people.

At the Resurrection, we will do the opposite. Be translated INTO immortal beings.

'It is immpossible that God would be dead' you said, only brings to mind one thing.

He wasn't dead. HE WAS ASLEEP.

There you are. The doctrine of soul sleep proven in the very death of Christ.

Jesus was quickened by the Spirit, and He GOT UP AND WALKED OUT OF THE TOMB.

Why would Jesus go to the antideluvians and 'preach' His victory? They will be judged just like every other dead person in the Judgement!

That really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Jesus was like "Nener nener nener, I got the victory, nener nener nener"?????

Sheesh.

Again, just because these 'testimonies' are together here, does not mean that they happened in that order.

The Spirit of God, (the same one that quickened Jesus) also went to the spirits in prison.

You want to put that on the antideluvians? How about Noah and his family? Were they not IN a prison?

God 'proclaimed to them'

Genesis 8:15. And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16. Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
17. Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18. And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19. Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20. And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

The idea that God, through the Spirit was speaking to Noah and his family is a WHOLE lot more feasable than the idea that He was speaking to the wicked 'disembodied' spirits that were in 'prison' (you didn't define that btw).

The word disembodied isn't in there. I don't think it occurs in Scripture at all. However it does say that the WHOLE earth and EVERY living thing that was on it DIED.

As for the Bible calling them 'spirits', well, I will ask God when I get there!

We do have some help now though.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Father of spirits, referring to men, and the word there is 'pneuma' or 'breath, wind, life'. Father of the 'breath that gives you life'. Since HE is the one in control of the 'pneuma' we should be in subjection to Him. So that we can LIVE. So simple.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

This verse is the vision given to Moses, about heaven. He saw the 'spirits' of just men, that were perfected or translated into immortal bodies, there in heaven. NOT ghosts. But MEN. It says MEN.

Num 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Again, the Father of spirits, only this time it says OF ALL FLESH. ALL. Same word there, 'ruwach' or 'breath, life, wind'. The Spirit that animates all life on earth. They were calling Him the God of all Creation there.

There are 40+ other mentions of the word 'spirits' in the Bible, all of which are either 'ruwach' or 'pneuma' (hebrew and greek respectivly). And in EVERY other verse, other than the ones above, it is talking about angels and demons. hmmm.

Where are the demons?

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Sounds like a prison!

If you were an angel and you lived in heaven and then, you had to come to this earth, and you weren't allowed to leave, what would you call it?

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

There are so many things that this passage could mean. It is fun to speculate, but we won't know for sure until we hear it from God first hand.

Just a few ideas.

God Bless.

Edited to take out the reference to the transfiguration, well, frankly because I am a dork, and I misapplied it!

[ January 29, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

What doctrine is that? That Christ went a preached to the condemned to give them a second chance? I didn't know that was a popular doctrine. I don't think DHK was agreeing with that. I always have thought He went to proclaim His victory.

And you are telling me to get a grip? You are the one who blows your top and talks to others in a very condescending manner.

Oh well....................</font>[/QUOTE]Why don't you elaborate on that then Neal.

If He proclaimed 'Victory', WHAT did He proclaim victory over? Why did He go to the antideluvians to proclaim this victory? And what happened to them AFTER He did?

I only get angry when people DO misrepresent me, and in the last post, I did not mis quote or mis represent you, and you were like 'you conveniently skipped over that whole part about Noah, and oh HA HA didn't know the Disciples were there then", THAT is what I am talking about.

I asked you if you knew what antideluvian meant, because you made that statement. I figured you didn't know that I was talking about the people of that time and gave you the benifit of the doubt that you were just ignorant. So I asked you if you knew what it meant and you were like "Of COURSE I know", as if I was implying that you were stupid or something (which I would never do).

Condescending?

You are the first to say that.

Probably won't be the last though, seeing as how unbelievably cruel and unusual I am, always blowing my top and all.

If only you could hear me when I write these posts. You always take me the wrong way.

God Bless.

 

That is the first time I have ever heard the transfiguration interpreted like that. Who told you that was the moment Christ became sin for us?

I don't think Jesus would act like that. Who said that is how He proclaimed His victory?

Neal</font>[/QUOTE]Again, the phrase 'get a grip' comes to mind. It is sarcasm Neal. You know when someone says something that everyone knows IS NOT TRUE in a way that implies that it is true, to be funny????

Who said what? Who cares? It was supposed to be a joke.

ANYWAY!

I get my view of the transfiguration from the Bible.

Why? How do you view it?

Do you not think that He became sin for us?

 

Well, you accuse DHK and I of doing some crazy things with Scripture, but I think that one takes the cake.

Neal</font>[/QUOTE]What? That is an indirect quote of YOU.

what are you talking about?

 

Quit editing your posts!

It's making it too hard to keep up with you!

 

Yes, I believe that He became sin for us. But what makes you say at the point of the transfiguration He became sin. Where do you get that from the Bible?

Neal</font>[/QUOTE]Several different places. Why?

What do you think 'transfigured' means?