Originally posted by DHK:
1Pet.3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
First, this is not talking of Jesus resurrection. It happened before His resurrection, while His body was still in the grave. He was put to death in the flesh (dead), but made alive in the spirit (not yet in body), by which (at which time) he went and preached to the spirits in prison.
Jesus was quickened (made alive) by the Spirit
The next statement CANNOT MEAN that He went to them in 'ghost' form, because it JUST said, He was alive.
His flesh was dead; his spirit (ghost) was alive (1Pet.3:18). Consider: Jamess 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--James says it very plainly. The body without the spirit is dead. That means the spirit is alive, and the body is dead. That is death. The body is dead and awaits its resurrection, while the spirit of the saved is in Heaven, and the spirit of the unsaved is in Hell.
You seem to be denying the very gospel by which a person is saved: the only gospel by which one is saved: 1Cor.15:1-4,
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
--Christ died. He was dead. What does that mean? Tell me, can God ever die? Was God actually dead for three days and three nights? Was there no one in control of the universe for that period of time, or, IS NOT CHRIST GOD?? Was only His body dead or was God himself (for God is Spirit), meaning the Spirit of Christ, dead also? If you believe that Christ and His Spirit died then you must believe that God died; which if true, everything would have flung into total chaos, for the world is kept together by the hand of His power.
On the Resurrection Day, it was the body of Christ that arose. His spirit had already proclaimed victory to the spirits in prison. He wasn’t giving them a second chance as you said. He was proclaiming His victory. That is what we get from the word “preach” in that context. It was a victory proclamation of the disobedient spirits of Noah’s time. His Spirit entered back into His body on the third day and raised it up. Christ said himself: I have the power to lay my life down; I have the power to take it up again. No man takes this power from me. And no man could. He by His own power, took His body up again. He arose from the dead. A resurrection ALWAYS refers to the body. Before that time His spirit was indeed alive; for it was impossible that God would be dead, and sometime during those three days and three nights he went and proclaimed victory to those disembodied spirits in a “prison” which God keeps them.
BTW, the graves which were opened, opened after the resurrection, and thus have no bearing on this passage of Scripture. All of this happened before His body arose from the dead, not after.
DHK
It was only Jesus who died. It was the Holy Spirit who made Him alive again. There are 3 parts to God. Other wise HOW could Jesus have said "Father, why have you forsaken me" and "Into thy hands I commit My Spirit"?
Jesus took upon the sins of the whole world and at that moment BECAME sin for us. When Jesus was here IN FLESH, He was a separate being. Most of these passages make the doctrine of God being 'just one God' look impossible, but we know that the 3 part God, is ONE. How that is, I don't know. But it is.
Further evidence is that the Holy Spirit decended upon Him like a dove at His baptism. If Jesus IS the Holy Spirit, how could it decend on Him? If Jesus IS the Father, why did He say "Why have YOU forsaken me?" ? Who was Jesus praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane?
There were not any dead people from the flood that were worthy of being saved. Those who were worthy WERE ON THE ARK. PERIOD.
It says that right in the flood record in Genesis.
Jesus was 'quickened' which means MADE ALIVE, and it says BY the Spirit, NOT in the Spirit. HE WAS ALIVE. His BODY was resurrected.
It says that the SAME Spirit (by which also) that made Him alive, made it possible for Him to proclaim something to the 'spirits' in 'prison'.
Jesus was not in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights.
Friday, as the Sabbath was approaching, He died.
Saturday, on the Sabbath He was resting in the tomb.
Sunday, the disciples found the tomb empty.
Which means sometime between Sundown on Saturday and sunup on Sunday, He arose.
That is only one day and 2 nights.
'God is a Spirit' you said.
Yes, one part of the Trinity is the Holy Spirit, but how were we made in the IMAGE of God, if He is not a physical person?
Before the fall of man, Adam and Eve both had immortal bodies, LIKE God. They could not be sick, or harmed, or killed. They were made in His image. Like a mirror. Flesh. Spirit. They were living souls. When they sinned, whatever it was that made them immortal, went bye bye, and they were immediatly 'translated' into mortal people.
At the Resurrection, we will do the opposite. Be translated INTO immortal beings.
'It is immpossible that God would be dead' you said, only brings to mind one thing.
He wasn't dead. HE WAS ASLEEP.
There you are. The doctrine of soul sleep proven in the very death of Christ.
Jesus was quickened by the Spirit, and He GOT UP AND WALKED OUT OF THE TOMB.
Why would Jesus go to the antideluvians and 'preach' His victory? They will be judged just like every other dead person in the Judgement!
That really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Jesus was like "Nener nener nener, I got the victory, nener nener nener"?????
Sheesh.
Again, just because these 'testimonies' are together here, does not mean that they happened in that order.
The Spirit of God, (the same one that quickened Jesus) also went to the spirits in prison.
You want to put that on the antideluvians? How about Noah and his family? Were they not IN a prison?
God 'proclaimed to them'
Genesis 8:15. And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16. Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
17. Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18. And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19. Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20. And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
22. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
The idea that God, through the Spirit was speaking to Noah and his family is a WHOLE lot more feasable than the idea that He was speaking to the wicked 'disembodied' spirits that were in 'prison' (you didn't define that btw).
The word disembodied isn't in there. I don't think it occurs in Scripture at all. However it does say that the WHOLE earth and EVERY living thing that was on it DIED.
As for the Bible calling them 'spirits', well, I will ask God when I get there!
We do have some help now though.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Father of spirits, referring to men, and the word there is 'pneuma' or 'breath, wind, life'. Father of the 'breath that gives you life'. Since HE is the one in control of the 'pneuma' we should be in subjection to Him. So that we can LIVE. So simple.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
This verse is the vision given to Moses, about heaven. He saw the 'spirits' of just men, that were perfected or translated into immortal bodies, there in heaven. NOT ghosts. But MEN. It says MEN.
Num 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
Again, the Father of spirits, only this time it says OF ALL FLESH. ALL. Same word there, 'ruwach' or 'breath, life, wind'. The Spirit that animates all life on earth. They were calling Him the God of all Creation there.
There are 40+ other mentions of the word 'spirits' in the Bible, all of which are either 'ruwach' or 'pneuma' (hebrew and greek respectivly). And in EVERY other verse, other than the ones above, it is talking about angels and demons. hmmm.
Where are the demons?
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Sounds like a prison!
If you were an angel and you lived in heaven and then, you had to come to this earth, and you weren't allowed to leave, what would you call it?
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
There are so many things that this passage could mean. It is fun to speculate, but we won't know for sure until we hear it from God first hand.
Just a few ideas.
God Bless.
Edited to take out the reference to the transfiguration, well, frankly because I am a dork, and I misapplied it!
[ January 29, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]
