Will the Lake of Fire Ever Go Out?

You really don't have much too say here do you? The fact is words are to be taken literally, unless context can conclusively show that they should not be, or that they should be taken figuratively. You have failed to do that. Context in either Rev.14:10,11 or the whole of Rev.20:10-15 does not indicate that we should be taking anything figuratively. These are events that will happen. These are individuals that will be cast into a literal lake of fire and will be tormented day and night forever and ever. If words mean anything to you, you will believe the straight literal meaning of the Bible, or flatly deny it. The entirety of Scripture cannot be spiritualized or taken figuratively at a person's whim and will. Context determines the meaning. The meaning of "tomented day and night forever and ever," is exactly as the context meant it to be, literally. Look the words up in a dictionary; take the primary meaning of each word; and you will have the understanding of those verses. To do anything else with it is perverting the Word of God, and that is what you insist on doing.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Again, you are arguing with yourself. I didn't say that forever was figurative. I said that it has a different meaning than what you applying it to mean. I have in no way, shape, or form tried to argue that for ever is figurative.

Since you CANNOT prove that the wicked receive immortality, my point still stands. I have asked you over 10 times to prove it and you have yet to do it.

The word for ever only means eternal to those who HAVE eternal life. Since the wicked DO NOT HAVE eternal life, and you have failed to prove this, even though you believe it so strongly, it still remains that if a person does not have the ability to live for eternity, then for ever means until they die.

Samuel, Jonah, the slave, NONE of them are still where the Bible said they would be for ever. There are just 3 examples of how those words can have a different meaning when it is speaking of those who DO NOT HAVE immortal bodies.

Would that be anything like saying 'is to be' when the Bible says 'and to be', or changing something like 'the smoke of their torment ascends forever' to 'their torment ascends forever'?

Just checking.

You really should pay closer attention to what is written before you respond.

God Bless

 

Did you even read the rest of my post? I too have a Spiros Zodhiates bible. The Key hebrew/greek study Bible. It has the same gramatical notations in it as does your program. I used the SAME references that you did, and came to a COMPLETELY different conclusion from you.

Could it be that you are LOOKING for that conclusion rather than seeking what God actually said? Don't get offended by that question. Be honest with yourself. I took the time to properly examine that entire verse in the original greek, in the literal translation, in the NKJV, in the NASB, and in the key greek study bible (KJV). All of which are NOT on my computer and it did take me some time to do it.

I might add that when I was doing this, it was with a mind set to find the truth. Not to prove my point or disprove yours, but to know what the ACTUAL truth is.

When I went to college, I was an English major. The greek language is something that I have a fairly reasonable grasp of. Many of their words have more than one meaning, and also have different tenses. When two words come together to make one verb, the two words are then defined by each other.

Here is a simple example:

"The money that I made is saved in the bank to be used for the car I want"

The complete verb there is 'saved to be used'. The "money" is the subject.

It means that the money is infinitely saved 'to be used' is a present passive participle, that depends on the time of the purchase to actually be in the present. That the money is saved is the infinite. It is being saved for an undetermined amount of time. When it is no longer being saved, it will then be 'used'.

It is a complex thing to understand, that is why people go to college to learn about it.

If you close your mind, you can't learn anything. Always remain teachable.

God Bless.

 

Actually, the program and the Bible are not the same things. The program is much more in depth than the Bible (I have two of the Bibles). It gives notations for every word, rather than the Bible for some words. Another thing, why are you looking at Zodhiates' Bible? You just ripped me for it and then you use it? Hmmm.

Are you trying to imply something? I have books too, and I actually prefer them.

So "to reserve being punished" does not mean what it says, but "to reserve to be punished"? Let's see, I understand it to be that they are reserved while being punished. But that is not it?

I am sorry that you come to a different conclusion. Have fun!

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't rip you for using it, I was referring to your contradictory statements.

'you got it from spiro' vs 'it's in the bible'

Why would I slam you for using something I have?

(Why do you have 2 of them?)

'reserved being punished' is not what it said.

I have already explained this in depth to you, if you want to hold to your tradition rather than fully understand the Word of God, then who am I to try to stop you.

God Bless

 

Sure:
Samuel: 1Sa 25:1 And Samuel died;
Jonah: Jon 2:10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
Slave: is not speaking of a specific person.

Are you talking about the incident with the WITCH of Endor? That has to be the most rediculous things I have ever heard! YOU think that was REALLY Samuel?


Let's see, Saul, in his DISOBEDIENCE consults a WITCH who now, for some reason which is beyond me, has the power to take people OUT OF GOD'S HAND????? Do you realize what you are saying here?

Actually, the theology of the Bible would make it impossible.

Again, parable. I think I already explained this a while ago. I don't have a promise from God that I am going to inherit eternal life in Abrahams chest. I am going to heaven.

He used Greek Mythology to speak to the Pharasees about their greed and lust and selfishness. That parable isn't for a 'better understanding of hell'. You miss the whole point when you try to take a parable literally.

Moses was resurrected, Elijah never died. They are totally different from the wicked who won't have immortal bodies.

God's Spirit IS immortal. There is nothing that is of man that is immortal. When the Life that animates man leaves him he returns to the dust. The Spirit that animated him was GOD. It is not his spirit. Unless you think your familiar spirit is going to heaven so he can come back for one last dispensation for a prophecy!!!!

LIES.

I hope for your sake that God will have mercy on you because of your ignorace. I believe the Bible to be true when it says:
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Jam 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

No one has EVER said that the way to Christ is through Ellen White.

Again, your true colors shine through here.

Insolent.

 

I have already, in sevaral different posts shown from scripture how this doctrine is wrong.

Where is yours for this:

Prove that the wicked receive immortality.

I think you have dodged that one EVERY time I have posted it.

Again, we see you grasping at the straw man.


Ignorance should be painful.

 

I don't know where you get this stuff, but my statements were not contradictory. Let's see, Zodhiates has a Study Bible. And let's see, in that, he has numbers keyed to Strongs and then he has a little notation denoting the part of speech and its form. It is not commentary or anything like that. He simply is stating what the verb form is. I don't know what your problem is with it. It is CLEAR that the Word of God says "to reserve being punished". You can try to explain it away, call me ignorant or that I hold on to tradition, but that is what it says. I am sorry you have a problem with that. It is not with me, it is with the Word of God. Have fun!

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Do you think that it is fun to repeatidly tell someone of the knowledge that you have and they continue to cling to the made up doctrine that they have from tradition?

It saddens me. I am not having fun.

God Bless.

 

What? You couln't respond to this? Some rebuttal. You didn't even START to respond.

 

How is it tradition when the literal translation of the phrase in question is "to reserve being punished"? When you prove that is tradition, then I will believe you.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]The Tradition is not in the translation, it is the doctrine that you think this ONE phrase proves. I have demonstrated at length how the verb phrase works. Now either you have no concept of the way verbs work, or you are choosing to cling to a doctrine that is tradition and refusing the knowledge that would give you the meaning of this passage.

I can't prove to you that the 'way it is translated' is tradition. That doesn't make any sense. The way it was written almost 2000 years ago, is the way we read it now (we hope). Why would this ONE verse propigate a doctrine, that is not proved by any other verse, and contradicts other verses?

I can prove that God is dead from the Bible. Does that mean God is dead? No, it means that I can take a verse and make it mean what the doctrine says, rather than using the Bible as a whole to form doctrine.

You are making a conscious choice to choose the doctrines of man, carried on through tradition, over the doctrines of God, carried out through the Bible.

I could concede that the verb says 'being punished' but it still depends upon the rest of the verb 'reserved' for it's timing.

I even showed you where those same words occur elsewhere in the Bible, in regards to the fate of the earth itself. Is the earth burning NOW?

God Bless.

 

What? You couln't respond to this? Some rebuttal. You didn't even START to respond. </font>[/QUOTE]Was there really a need to?

Source of Authority. Ellen G. White claimed to be, "a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light." The official SDA Questions on Doctrine (Q.D.) states that, "the Holy Spirit opened to her mind important events and called her to give certain instructions for these last days, and inasmuch as these instructions, in our understanding, are in harmony with the Word of God, which Word alone is able to make us wise unto salvation, we as a denomination accept them as inspired counsels from the Lord" (Q.D., p. 93). (Emphasis added.) Mrs. White claimed to have received more than 3,000 "inspired counsels from the Lord" (i.e., visions) between 1844 and 1868. (From these "visions," she produced over 100,000 handwritten manuscript pages from which were published 54 books!) Therefore, SDAs have a new source of authority in their lives -- according to SDA's dogma, if an SDA does not accept Mrs. White as infallible, they have no salvation!
The SDA Church made this statement in their Ministry magazine of October 1981, and have never retracted it -- "We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White's writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other" (June 1997, The Baptist Challenge). (Bold added.) This sounds like SDAs also believe that Mrs. White is inerrant.

Seventh Day Adventism

DHK </font>[/QUOTE]

WHERE? In OUR 'dogma' (that's funny) does it say that?

I can post a hundred SDA slam websites for you to go read. None of them have the truth.

The Official SDA Website


Official Ellen White Estate

Get your information from a REAL site and then I will take it seriously.

All that other stuff you have posted is heresay and slander.

God Bless.

 

Actually, I don't believe just this ONE phrase proves it. Thank-you for telling me what I believe and why, though.

Then you never proved it if what you 'prove' is not true.

I am talking of the phrase 'being punished', not 'to reserve'. All I see are quotes regarding reserving, not the phrase 'being punished'.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]That is the point Neal, that if you take away the word 'reserved' then you are looking at an incomplete verb that expresses something that was not intended by the author.

The Complete verb is 'reserved to be punished'. Or if you I must 'reserved being punished'. The word reserved is still there though, being infinite, it causes the present passive TIMING of 'being punished' to be dependent on the TIMING of 'reserved' and since 'reserved' in the infinite is an adverb modifying 'judgement', IT ALL DEPENDS on when the judgment is.

God Bless.

 

Would the same not be true for you looking at only the "to reserve" part and ignoring the "being punished"? The only verses I have seen you put up are dealing with exclusively the 'reserve' part, not the whole, complete "to reserve being punished" verb.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Because, Neal, 2 Peter 2:9 is the ONLY place in the Bible where they are together.

There is only one other place where the word 'kolazo' is used (the one you are saying is 'being punished'):

Act 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

And I do believe I posted it before.

IT IS THE ONLY ONE.

Therefore we must look to understanding the tense of that verb. There are other examples of that kind of verb in the Bible, and it just so happens it is the direct OPPOSITE of 2 Peter 2:9:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

'Remain' is a present passive participle. It too, just like 2 Peter 2:9 is under the control of the timing of 'the coming of the Lord'. Both are future tense. Judgment and Coming.

Reserved unto the judgement to be punished.

No matter how you slice it, the Bible doesn't support a doctrine that states that the wicked are 'being punished' before they are judged. Since we have no evidence that there is any judgment for the wicked prior to the Great White Throne Judgment, then it is only logical to conclude that they are NOT being punished yet.

That may happen in the judicial system of the USA, but God's justice doesn't work like that.

God Bless.