Will the Lake of Fire Ever Go Out?

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

3AngelsMom says, Never does not mean never; eternal does not mean eternal.

I'm sorry did you want to QUOTE me saying that or did you just want to misrepresent me again?
Pretty sure I just USED the word NEVER to say that the WICKED will NEVER receive immortality.
NEVER means NEVER. Not ever. Won't happen. As opposed to WILL happen.

And in Rev.20:10
"shall be tormented day and night forever and ever," does not mean "tormented," does not mean "day and night," and does not mean "forever and forever." This is blatant unbelief and denial.

Actually it is blatant misrepresentation. You like doing that don't you? Let me give you some advice: COPY AND PASTE.
Tormented does mean tormented. Day and night, means DAY and NIGHT, and for ever means for ever. ALL of these must be viewed in the light of WHO they are talking about. The wicked WILL be tormented, until they die. There will be people going into the fire, day and night, until the judgment is over. (there are quite a few people who will be going through the judgment) They will burn forever, which is until they die.
On the flip side, which I have already pointed out and you conveniently ignored, there ARE times in the Bible where for ever means eternity. When referring to GOD who immortal, omnipotent, all knowing and to the Saints who are redeemed from the earth and given immortal bodies. THEY will live for all eternity.
Just like you said. Some words have more than one meaning.

Using 3AngelsMom logic: IPet.3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Christ didn't suffer, just like those in Rev.20:10 were not tormented. Never did He suffer, not even "once" just as those in Rev. 20:10 will forever and ever. He wasn't even put to death in the flesh. It was just a sleep that Christ took. If just a sleep, there was no need for a resurrection at all. Christ really didn't rise again from the dead for he really didn't die in the first place. Isn't amazing with the things you can do with Scripture, when you begin to spiritualize and allegorize everything. However I wouldn't be too surprised if you believed all of the above.
DHK

Once again you prove my point, although, I would like to rephrase my point.
Original:
Pot calling the kettle black
</font>

You really don't have much too say here do you? The fact is words are to be taken literally, unless context can conclusively show that they should not be, or that they should be taken figuratively. You have failed to do that. Context in either Rev.14:10,11 or the whole of Rev.20:10-15 does not indicate that we should be taking anything figuratively. These are events that will happen. These are individuals that will be cast into a literal lake of fire and will be tormented day and night forever and ever. If words mean anything to you, you will believe the straight literal meaning of the Bible, or flatly deny it. The entirety of Scripture cannot be spiritualized or taken figuratively at a person's whim and will. Context determines the meaning. The meaning of "tomented day and night forever and ever," is exactly as the context meant it to be, literally. Look the words up in a dictionary; take the primary meaning of each word; and you will have the understanding of those verses. To do anything else with it is perverting the Word of God, and that is what you insist on doing.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Again, you are arguing with yourself. I didn't say that forever was figurative. I said that it has a different meaning than what you applying it to mean. I have in no way, shape, or form tried to argue that for ever is figurative.

Since you CANNOT prove that the wicked receive immortality, my point still stands. I have asked you over 10 times to prove it and you have yet to do it.

The word for ever only means eternal to those who HAVE eternal life. Since the wicked DO NOT HAVE eternal life, and you have failed to prove this, even though you believe it so strongly, it still remains that if a person does not have the ability to live for eternity, then for ever means until they die.

Samuel, Jonah, the slave, NONE of them are still where the Bible said they would be for ever. There are just 3 examples of how those words can have a different meaning when it is speaking of those who DO NOT HAVE immortal bodies.

To do anything else with it is perverting the Word of God, and that is what you insist on doing.

Would that be anything like saying 'is to be' when the Bible says 'and to be', or changing something like 'the smoke of their torment ascends forever' to 'their torment ascends forever'?

Just checking.

You really should pay closer attention to what is written before you respond.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Okay, 3AngelsMom. Yeah, Mr. Zodhiates really did change what the Word of God says! I am sorry, but "reserved being punished" does not sound like it is waiting till the day of judgement. Well, I guess there is nothing else to say to you. Have fun!

Neal

Did you even read the rest of my post? I too have a Spiros Zodhiates bible. The Key hebrew/greek study Bible. It has the same gramatical notations in it as does your program. I used the SAME references that you did, and came to a COMPLETELY different conclusion from you.

Could it be that you are LOOKING for that conclusion rather than seeking what God actually said? Don't get offended by that question. Be honest with yourself. I took the time to properly examine that entire verse in the original greek, in the literal translation, in the NKJV, in the NASB, and in the key greek study bible (KJV). All of which are NOT on my computer and it did take me some time to do it.

I might add that when I was doing this, it was with a mind set to find the truth. Not to prove my point or disprove yours, but to know what the ACTUAL truth is.

When I went to college, I was an English major. The greek language is something that I have a fairly reasonable grasp of. Many of their words have more than one meaning, and also have different tenses. When two words come together to make one verb, the two words are then defined by each other.

Here is a simple example:

"The money that I made is saved in the bank to be used for the car I want"

The complete verb there is 'saved to be used'. The "money" is the subject.

It means that the money is infinitely saved 'to be used' is a present passive participle, that depends on the time of the purchase to actually be in the present. That the money is saved is the infinite. It is being saved for an undetermined amount of time. When it is no longer being saved, it will then be 'used'.

It is a complex thing to understand, that is why people go to college to learn about it.

If you close your mind, you can't learn anything. Always remain teachable.

God Bless.

 

[neal4christ]

Did you even read the rest of my post? I too have a Spiros Zodhiates bible. The Key hebrew/greek study Bible. It has the same gramatical notations in it as does your program.

Actually, the program and the Bible are not the same things. The program is much more in depth than the Bible (I have two of the Bibles). It gives notations for every word, rather than the Bible for some words. Another thing, why are you looking at Zodhiates' Bible? You just ripped me for it and then you use it? Hmmm.

All of which are NOT on my computer and it did take me some time to do it.

Are you trying to imply something? I have books too, and I actually prefer them.

When two words come together to make one verb, the two words are then defined by each other.

So "to reserve being punished" does not mean what it says, but "to reserve to be punished"? Let's see, I understand it to be that they are reserved while being punished. But that is not it?

I am sorry that you come to a different conclusion. Have fun!

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Did you even read the rest of my post? I too have a Spiros Zodhiates bible. The Key hebrew/greek study Bible. It has the same gramatical notations in it as does your program.

Actually, the program and the Bible are not the same things. The program is much more in depth than the Bible (I have two of the Bibles). It gives notations for every word, rather than the Bible for some words. Another thing, why are you looking at Zodhiates' Bible? You just ripped me for it and then you use it? Hmmm.

All of which are NOT on my computer and it did take me some time to do it.

Are you trying to imply something? I have books too, and I actually prefer them.

When two words come together to make one verb, the two words are then defined by each other.

So "to reserve being punished" does not mean what it says, but "to reserve to be punished"? Let's see, I understand it to be that they are reserved while being punished. But that is not it?

I am sorry that you come to a different conclusion. Have fun!

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't rip you for using it, I was referring to your contradictory statements.

'you got it from spiro' vs 'it's in the bible'

Why would I slam you for using something I have?

(Why do you have 2 of them?)

'reserved being punished' is not what it said.

I have already explained this in depth to you, if you want to hold to your tradition rather than fully understand the Word of God, then who am I to try to stop you.

God Bless

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

Since you CANNOT prove that the wicked receive immortality, my point still stands. I have asked you over 10 times to prove it and you have yet to do it.

The word for ever only means eternal to those who HAVE eternal life. Since the wicked DO NOT HAVE eternal life, and you have failed to prove this, even though you believe it so strongly, it still remains that if a person does not have the ability to live for eternity, then for ever means until they die.

Samuel, Jonah, the slave, NONE of them are still where the Bible said they would be for ever. There are just 3 examples of how those words can have a different meaning when it is speaking of those who DO NOT HAVE immortal bodies.

To do anything else with it is perverting the Word of God, and that is what you insist on doing.

Would that be anything like saying 'is to be' when the Bible says 'and to be', or changing something like 'the smoke of their torment ascends forever' to 'their torment ascends forever'?
</font>

Samuel, Jonah, the slave, NONE of them are still where the Bible said they would be for ever.
Are you sure about this? Can you prove it? How do you know? Do you have special revelation telling you otherwise?
Concerning Samuel, God gave him a special dispensation to come back from the dead (or the paradise that he was already in) and give Saul one last word or prophecy. According to your theology both his body and soul were dead and/or sleeping. This would have been impossible.

Concering Abraham, We still see him alive and well in Luke 16, 2,000 years later, where we also get a glimpse into what Heaven and Hell were like in the Old Testament times. Not a pretty picture for the rich man, and all others who went to Hell. Was Jesus lying in that story. Was he teaching an untruth. Would he even use a lie to teach the truths of the story of the Rich man and Lazarus. Think carefully before you answer. What truths was Jesus teaching in Luke 16 about the Rich man and Lazarus? Would he use falsehoods in order to teach truth?
What about Elijah and Moses? How long ago in history did they die before they appeared again on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus?
The spirit never dies. It is immortal. It goes either to Heaven or Hell. And at the Resurrection the body will join the spirit, and it too will become immortal: the just for Heaven, and the unjust for Hell.

Too bad Ellen G. White burns in Hell, for leading so many astray with her heretical false doctrines. Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by me." He never said that Ellen G. White was the way.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

Since you CANNOT prove that the wicked receive immortality, my point still stands. I have asked you over 10 times to prove it and you have yet to do it.

The word for ever only means eternal to those who HAVE eternal life. Since the wicked DO NOT HAVE eternal life, and you have failed to prove this, even though you believe it so strongly, it still remains that if a person does not have the ability to live for eternity, then for ever means until they die.

Samuel, Jonah, the slave, NONE of them are still where the Bible said they would be for ever. There are just 3 examples of how those words can have a different meaning when it is speaking of those who DO NOT HAVE immortal bodies.

To do anything else with it is perverting the Word of God, and that is what you insist on doing. -DHK

Would that be anything like saying 'is to be' when the Bible says 'and to be', or changing something like 'the smoke of their torment ascends forever' to 'their torment ascends forever'?

Samuel, Jonah, the slave, NONE of them are still where the Bible said they would be for ever.

Are you sure about this? Can you prove it? How do you know? Do you have special revelation telling you otherwise?

Sure:
Samuel: 1Sa 25:1 And Samuel died;
Jonah: Jon 2:10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
Slave: is not speaking of a specific person.

Concerning Samuel, God gave him a special dispensation to come back from the dead (or the paradise that he was already in) and give Saul one last word or prophecy.

Are you talking about the incident with the WITCH of Endor? That has to be the most rediculous things I have ever heard! YOU think that was REALLY Samuel?

Let's see, Saul, in his DISOBEDIENCE consults a WITCH who now, for some reason which is beyond me, has the power to take people OUT OF GOD'S HAND????? Do you realize what you are saying here?

According to your theology both his body and soul were dead and/or sleeping. This would have been impossible.

Actually, the theology of the Bible would make it impossible.

Concering Abraham, We still see him alive and well in Luke 16, 2,000 years later, where we also get a glimpse into what Heaven and Hell were like in the Old Testament times. Not a pretty picture for the rich man, and all others who went to Hell.

Again, parable. I think I already explained this a while ago. I don't have a promise from God that I am going to inherit eternal life in Abrahams chest. I am going to heaven.

Was Jesus lying in that story. Was he teaching an untruth. Would he even use a lie to teach the truths of the story of the Rich man and Lazarus. Think carefully before you answer. What truths was Jesus teaching in Luke 16 about the Rich man and Lazarus? Would he use falsehoods in order to teach truth?

He used Greek Mythology to speak to the Pharasees about their greed and lust and selfishness. That parable isn't for a 'better understanding of hell'. You miss the whole point when you try to take a parable literally.

What about Elijah and Moses? How long ago in history did they die before they appeared again on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus?

Moses was resurrected, Elijah never died. They are totally different from the wicked who won't have immortal bodies.

The spirit never dies. It is immortal.

God's Spirit IS immortal. There is nothing that is of man that is immortal. When the Life that animates man leaves him he returns to the dust. The Spirit that animated him was GOD. It is not his spirit. Unless you think your familiar spirit is going to heaven so he can come back for one last dispensation for a prophecy!!!!

It goes either to Heaven or Hell. And at the Resurrection the body will join the spirit, and it too will become immortal: the just for Heaven, and the unjust for Hell.

LIES.

Too bad Ellen G. White burns in Hell, for leading so many astray with her heretical false doctrines.

I hope for your sake that God will have mercy on you because of your ignorace. I believe the Bible to be true when it says:
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Jam 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by me." He never said that Ellen G. White was the way.

No one has EVER said that the way to Christ is through Ellen White.

Again, your true colors shine through here.

Insolent.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

Samuel, Jonah, the slave, NONE of them are still where the Bible said they would be for ever.

Are you sure about this? Can you prove it? How do you know? Do you have special revelation telling you otherwise?

Sure:
Samuel: 1Sa 25:1 And Samuel died;
Jonah: Jon 2:10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
Slave: is not speaking of a specific person.

His body died and awaits the resurrection. His spirit lives on forever. You failed to mention that.

Concering Abraham, We still see him alive and well in Luke 16, 2,000 years later, where we also get a glimpse into what Heaven and Hell were like in the Old Testament times. Not a pretty picture for the rich man, and all others who went to Hell.

Again, parable. I think I already explained this a while ago. I don't have a promise from God that I am going to inherit eternal life in Abrahams chest. I am going to heaven.

Was Jesus lying in that story. Was he teaching an untruth. Would he even use a lie to teach the truths of the story of the Rich man and Lazarus. Think carefully before you answer. What truths was Jesus teaching in Luke 16 about the Rich man and Lazarus? Would he use falsehoods in order to teach truth?

He used Greek Mythology to speak to the Pharasees about their greed and lust and selfishness. That parable isn't for a 'better understanding of hell'. You miss the whole point when you try to take a parable literally.

Your position is that Jesus is using Greek Mythology (lies and fables) to teach truth? Jesus put Abraham into the context of Greek mythology a lying fable in order to teach a truth about greed and lust. In fact He told an outright lie about Abraham because we know that Abraham never existed in Greek mythology so in effect you accuse the Lord Jesus Christ of being a liar. How much more blasphemous can one be!

What about Elijah and Moses? How long ago in history did they die before they appeared again on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus?

Moses was resurrected, Elijah never died. They are totally different from the wicked who won't have immortal bodies.

Either way they are alive more than 2,000 years later. Whether they were resurrected or just lived that long, how do you account for it. Where were their bodies and their spirits? In the case of Moses it will be just like the rapture won't it. His spirit was in Heaven and his body was in the grave. The two will be joined together. There is no soul sleep here. Elijah was taken straight to Heaven. No soul sleep here either.

The spirit never dies. It is immortal.

God's Spirit IS immortal. There is nothing that is of man that is immortal. When the Life that animates man leaves him he returns to the dust. The Spirit that animated him was GOD. It is not his spirit. Unless you think your familiar spirit is going to heaven so he can come back for one last dispensation for a prophecy!!!!

Laugh as you will, if you do not believe in the immortality of the spirit you will never reach heaven. You must be born again.

It goes either to Heaven or Hell. And at the Resurrection the body will join the spirit, and it too will become immortal: the just for Heaven, and the unjust for Hell.

LIES.

Great rebuttal!! Look at all the Scripture you just used to back it up with. "LIES." Yup, couldn't come up with a better answer myself.
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

'you got it from spiro' vs 'it's in the bible'

I don't know where you get this stuff, but my statements were not contradictory. Let's see, Zodhiates has a Study Bible. And let's see, in that, he has numbers keyed to Strongs and then he has a little notation denoting the part of speech and its form. It is not commentary or anything like that. He simply is stating what the verb form is. I don't know what your problem is with it. It is CLEAR that the Word of God says "to reserve being punished". You can try to explain it away, call me ignorant or that I hold on to tradition, but that is what it says. I am sorry you have a problem with that. It is not with me, it is with the Word of God. Have fun!

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
[qb]

Samuel, Jonah, the slave, NONE of them are still where the Bible said they would be for ever.

Are you sure about this? Can you prove it? How do you know? Do you have special revelation telling you otherwise?

Sure:
Samuel: 1Sa 25:1 And Samuel died;
Jonah: Jon 2:10 And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.
Slave: is not speaking of a specific person.

His body died and awaits the resurrection. His spirit lives on forever. You failed to mention that.

I didn't fail to mention anything. The spirit of a man does not live on forever unless it is part of a body that makes a living soul. That soul could only live on forever if it was immortal, and since the resurrection hasn't happened yet, they aren't.

Concering Abraham, We still see him alive and well in Luke 16, 2,000 years later, where we also get a glimpse into what Heaven and Hell were like in the Old Testament times. Not a pretty picture for the rich man, and all others who went to Hell.

Again, parable. I think I already explained this a while ago. I don't have a promise from God that I am going to inherit eternal life in Abrahams chest. I am going to heaven.

Was Jesus lying in that story. Was he teaching an untruth. Would he even use a lie to teach the truths of the story of the Rich man and Lazarus. Think carefully before you answer. What truths was Jesus teaching in Luke 16 about the Rich man and Lazarus? Would he use falsehoods in order to teach truth?

He used Greek Mythology to speak to the Pharasees about their greed and lust and selfishness. That parable isn't for a 'better understanding of hell'. You miss the whole point when you try to take a parable literally.

Your position is that Jesus is using Greek Mythology (lies and fables) to teach truth? Jesus put Abraham into the context of Greek mythology a lying fable in order to teach a truth about greed and lust. In fact He told an outright lie about Abraham because we know that Abraham never existed in Greek mythology so in effect you accuse the Lord Jesus Christ of being a liar. How much more blasphemous can one be!

I didn't say He was a liar, but you would want to think He was since the Bible is so contrary to your theology. He spoke to them on a level that He knew they would understand. What about the other parables? 10 Virgins waiting for ONE man? Does that mean that you can have 10 wives? Jesus said it!!! Sheesh.

What about Elijah and Moses? How long ago in history did they die before they appeared again on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus?

Moses was resurrected, Elijah never died. They are totally different from the wicked who won't have immortal bodies.

Either way they are alive more than 2,000 years later. Whether they were resurrected or just lived that long, how do you account for it. Where were their bodies and their spirits? In the case of Moses it will be just like the rapture won't it. His spirit was in Heaven and his body was in the grave. The two will be joined together. There is no soul sleep here. Elijah was taken straight to Heaven. No soul sleep here either.

Moses's body was taken by God to heaven. Like it or not, God wanted HIM there, and He had to come get him out of the grave. (Jude 9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.)

The spirit never dies. It is immortal.

God's Spirit IS immortal. There is nothing that is of man that is immortal. When the Life that animates man leaves him he returns to the dust. The Spirit that animated him was GOD. It is not his spirit. Unless you think your familiar spirit is going to heaven so he can come back for one last dispensation for a prophecy!

Laugh as you will, if you do not believe in the immortality of the spirit you will never reach heaven. You must be born again.

Uh, WHERE is that in the plan of Salvation? Your doctrine is heretical.

It goes either to Heaven or Hell. And at the Resurrection the body will join the spirit, and it too will become immortal: the just for Heaven, and the unjust for Hell.

LIES.

Great rebuttal!! Look at all the Scripture you just used to back it up with. "LIES." Yup, couldn't come up with a better answer myself.
DHK </font>

I have already, in sevaral different posts shown from scripture how this doctrine is wrong.

Where is yours for this:

Prove that the wicked receive immortality.

I think you have dodged that one EVERY time I have posted it.

Again, we see you grasping at the straw man.


Ignorance should be painful.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 'you got it from spiro' vs 'it's in the bible'

I don't know where you get this stuff, but my statements were not contradictory. Let's see, Zodhiates has a Study Bible. And let's see, in that, he has numbers keyed to Strongs and then he has a little notation denoting the part of speech and its form. It is not commentary or anything like that. He simply is stating what the verb form is. I don't know what your problem is with it. It is CLEAR that the Word of God says "to reserve being punished". You can try to explain it away, call me ignorant or that I hold on to tradition, but that is what it says. I am sorry you have a problem with that. It is not with me, it is with the Word of God. Have fun!

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Do you think that it is fun to repeatidly tell someone of the knowledge that you have and they continue to cling to the made up doctrine that they have from tradition?

It saddens me. I am not having fun.

God Bless.

 

[3AngelsMom]

quote:by DHK
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Too bad Ellen G. White burns in Hell, for leading so many astray with her heretical false doctrines.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3AngelsMom: I hope for your sake that God will have mercy on you because of your ignorace. I believe the Bible to be true when it says:
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Jam 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.


quote: DHK
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes unto the Father but by me." He never said that Ellen G. White was the way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3AM: No one has EVER said that the way to Christ is through Ellen White.

What? You couln't respond to this? Some rebuttal. You didn't even START to respond.

 

[neal4christ]

Do you think that it is fun to repeatidly tell someone of the knowledge that you have and they continue to cling to the made up doctrine that they have from tradition?

How is it tradition when the literal translation of the phrase in question is "to reserve being punished"? When you prove that is tradition, then I will believe you.

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Do you think that it is fun to repeatidly tell someone of the knowledge that you have and they continue to cling to the made up doctrine that they have from tradition?

How is it tradition when the literal translation of the phrase in question is "to reserve being punished"? When you prove that is tradition, then I will believe you.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]The Tradition is not in the translation, it is the doctrine that you think this ONE phrase proves. I have demonstrated at length how the verb phrase works. Now either you have no concept of the way verbs work, or you are choosing to cling to a doctrine that is tradition and refusing the knowledge that would give you the meaning of this passage.

I can't prove to you that the 'way it is translated' is tradition. That doesn't make any sense. The way it was written almost 2000 years ago, is the way we read it now (we hope). Why would this ONE verse propigate a doctrine, that is not proved by any other verse, and contradicts other verses?

I can prove that God is dead from the Bible. Does that mean God is dead? No, it means that I can take a verse and make it mean what the doctrine says, rather than using the Bible as a whole to form doctrine.

You are making a conscious choice to choose the doctrines of man, carried on through tradition, over the doctrines of God, carried out through the Bible.

I could concede that the verb says 'being punished' but it still depends upon the rest of the verb 'reserved' for it's timing.

I even showed you where those same words occur elsewhere in the Bible, in regards to the fate of the earth itself. Is the earth burning NOW?

God Bless.

 

[neal4christ]

it is the doctrine that you think this ONE phrase proves.

Actually, I don't believe just this ONE phrase proves it. Thank-you for telling me what I believe and why, though.

I can prove that God is dead from the Bible. Does that mean God is dead? No

Then you never proved it if what you 'prove' is not true.

I even showed you where those same words occur elsewhere in the Bible

I am talking of the phrase 'being punished', not 'to reserve'. All I see are quotes regarding reserving, not the phrase 'being punished'.

Neal

[ February 04, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />3AM: No one has EVER said that the way to Christ is through Ellen White.

What? You couln't respond to this? Some rebuttal. You didn't even START to respond. </font>[/QUOTE]Was there really a need to?

Source of Authority. Ellen G. White claimed to be, "a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light." The official SDA Questions on Doctrine (Q.D.) states that, "the Holy Spirit opened to her mind important events and called her to give certain instructions for these last days, and inasmuch as these instructions, in our understanding, are in harmony with the Word of God, which Word alone is able to make us wise unto salvation, we as a denomination accept them as inspired counsels from the Lord" (Q.D., p. 93). (Emphasis added.) Mrs. White claimed to have received more than 3,000 "inspired counsels from the Lord" (i.e., visions) between 1844 and 1868. (From these "visions," she produced over 100,000 handwritten manuscript pages from which were published 54 books!) Therefore, SDAs have a new source of authority in their lives -- according to SDA's dogma, if an SDA does not accept Mrs. White as infallible, they have no salvation!
The SDA Church made this statement in their Ministry magazine of October 1981, and have never retracted it -- "We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White's writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other" (June 1997, The Baptist Challenge). (Bold added.) This sounds like SDAs also believe that Mrs. White is inerrant.

Seventh Day Adventism

DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />3AM: No one has EVER said that the way to Christ is through Ellen White.

What? You couln't respond to this? Some rebuttal. You didn't even START to respond. </font>[/QUOTE]Was there really a need to?

Source of Authority. Ellen G. White claimed to be, "a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light." The official SDA Questions on Doctrine (Q.D.) states that, "the Holy Spirit opened to her mind important events and called her to give certain instructions for these last days, and inasmuch as these instructions, in our understanding, are in harmony with the Word of God, which Word alone is able to make us wise unto salvation, we as a denomination accept them as inspired counsels from the Lord" (Q.D., p. 93). (Emphasis added.) Mrs. White claimed to have received more than 3,000 "inspired counsels from the Lord" (i.e., visions) between 1844 and 1868. (From these "visions," she produced over 100,000 handwritten manuscript pages from which were published 54 books!) Therefore, SDAs have a new source of authority in their lives -- according to SDA's dogma, if an SDA does not accept Mrs. White as infallible, they have no salvation!
The SDA Church made this statement in their Ministry magazine of October 1981, and have never retracted it -- "We believe the revelation and inspiration of both the Bible and Ellen White's writings to be of equal quality. The superintendence of the Holy Spirit was just as careful and thorough in one case as in the other" (June 1997, The Baptist Challenge). (Bold added.) This sounds like SDAs also believe that Mrs. White is inerrant.

Seventh Day Adventism

DHK </font>[/QUOTE]

Therefore, SDAs have a new source of authority in their lives -- according to SDA's dogma, if an SDA does not accept Mrs. White as infallible, they have no salvation!

WHERE? In OUR 'dogma' (that's funny) does it say that?

I can post a hundred SDA slam websites for you to go read. None of them have the truth.

The Official SDA Website


Official Ellen White Estate

Get your information from a REAL site and then I will take it seriously.

All that other stuff you have posted is heresay and slander.

God Bless.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> it is the doctrine that you think this ONE phrase proves.

Actually, I don't believe just this ONE phrase proves it. Thank-you for telling me what I believe and why, though.

I can prove that God is dead from the Bible. Does that mean God is dead? No

Then you never proved it if what you 'prove' is not true.

I even showed you where those same words occur elsewhere in the Bible

I am talking of the phrase 'being punished', not 'to reserve'. All I see are quotes regarding reserving, not the phrase 'being punished'.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]That is the point Neal, that if you take away the word 'reserved' then you are looking at an incomplete verb that expresses something that was not intended by the author.

The Complete verb is 'reserved to be punished'. Or if you I must 'reserved being punished'. The word reserved is still there though, being infinite, it causes the present passive TIMING of 'being punished' to be dependent on the TIMING of 'reserved' and since 'reserved' in the infinite is an adverb modifying 'judgement', IT ALL DEPENDS on when the judgment is.

God Bless.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

Get your information from a REAL site and then I will take it seriously.

During her lifetime she wrote more than 5,000 periodical articles and 40 books; but today, including compilations from her 50,000 pages of manuscript, more than 100 titles are available in English. She is the most translated woman writer in the entire history of literature, and the most translated American author of either gender. Her writings cover a broad range of subjects, including religion, education, social relationships, evangelism, prophecy, publishing, nutrition, and management. Her life-changing masterpiece on successful Christian living, Steps to Christ, has been published in more than 140 languages.
http://whiteestate.org/about/egwbio.asp

The above is from the "official" SDA website. I believe the information given below is more accurate and closer to the truth.

The Genesis of Seventh-Day Adventism
Seventh-Day Adventism, Christian Science, and Theosophy have one thing in common at least–they all had hysterical, neurotic women as their Founders! Mrs. Ellen G. White was the founder of the "ism" of this article, though she got her cue from one William Miller of Low Hampton, N. Y., U.S. A. Concerning Mrs. White, "Dr. William Russell, a chief physician in the Seventh-Day Adventist Sanatorium at Battle Creek, long a Seventh-Day Adventist, wrote in 1869 that Mrs. White's visions were the result of a diseased organization or condition of brain or nervous system." Dr. Fairfield, likewise an Adventist, and for years a physician in the same Sanatorium, wrote in 1887 that he had no doubt that her visions were "simply hysterical trances. Age itself had almost cured her."1 We may well pity the poor woman in her ill-health, but we cannot be sentimental about the seriousness of her teachings, which amount to blasphemy and are directly opposed to the Word of God.
Mrs. White's standard work is The Great Controversy between Christ and Satan, which has run through several editions. This contains an authoritative account of the Seventh-Day Adventism teaching. Of this book, however, (Rev.) D. M. Canright (who was intimate with her for years) writes in his volume Seventh-Day Adventism Renounced: "She often copies her subject-matter without credit or sign of quotation from other authors. Indeed her last great book, The Great Controversy, which they laud so highly as her greatest work, is largely (mainly in its historical parts) a compilation of Andrews' History of the Sabbath; History of the Waldenses, by Wylie; Life of Miller, by White; Thoughts on Revelation, by Smith, and other books." "The Pastors' Union of Healdsburg, California, investigated the matter, and published many instances of her plagiarisms.” In spite of such facts, however, the publisher's preface reads, "We believe she has been empowered by a Divine illumination to speak of some past events which have been brought to her knowledge with greater minuteness than is set forth in any existing records, and to read the future with more than human foresight!"
Such a genesis is not very reassuring. In religious matters at least, one expects to find the source for new light coming from a more lofty and spiritual plane. A stream never rises higher than its source; and if this stream of a "new faith" is no higher in source than represented, it does not augur well for subsequent developments. Alas, we do not need to go very far into the depths to find out the muddy and unwholesome character of this that is called Seventh-Day Adventism. William Miller, the progenitor, was found out to be a very false and dangerous prophet, but this much can be said of him-that he stopped short after repeated failures in his own line, from going into the wholesale theories and vapid imaginings advocated by the later Mrs. White, albeit these new theories were built upon his discarded foundation!

SDAs

DHK

 

[neal4christ]

that if you take away the word 'reserved' then you are looking at an incomplete verb

Would the same not be true for you looking at only the "to reserve" part and ignoring the "being punished"? The only verses I have seen you put up are dealing with exclusively the 'reserve' part, not the whole, complete "to reserve being punished" verb.

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> that if you take away the word 'reserved' then you are looking at an incomplete verb

Would the same not be true for you looking at only the "to reserve" part and ignoring the "being punished"? The only verses I have seen you put up are dealing with exclusively the 'reserve' part, not the whole, complete "to reserve being punished" verb.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Because, Neal, 2 Peter 2:9 is the ONLY place in the Bible where they are together.

There is only one other place where the word 'kolazo' is used (the one you are saying is 'being punished'):

Act 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

And I do believe I posted it before.

IT IS THE ONLY ONE.

Therefore we must look to understanding the tense of that verb. There are other examples of that kind of verb in the Bible, and it just so happens it is the direct OPPOSITE of 2 Peter 2:9:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

'Remain' is a present passive participle. It too, just like 2 Peter 2:9 is under the control of the timing of 'the coming of the Lord'. Both are future tense. Judgment and Coming.

Reserved unto the judgement to be punished.

No matter how you slice it, the Bible doesn't support a doctrine that states that the wicked are 'being punished' before they are judged. Since we have no evidence that there is any judgment for the wicked prior to the Great White Throne Judgment, then it is only logical to conclude that they are NOT being punished yet.

That may happen in the judicial system of the USA, but God's justice doesn't work like that.

God Bless.