Will the Lake of Fire Ever Go Out?

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Revelations is not a chronological book. It is not in the 'order' in which it is going to happen.

Rev.14:10

Y----The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
X----and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
X----And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
Y----and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The topic of the Y's are about before the 2nd Coming during the 7 Bowl judgements, the topic of the X's are after the Millenium.


Y----The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
Y----and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
X----and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
X----11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

This passage is an example of a complex chiasm in an antithetical parallel, of an antiphonal grouping.

You haven't stumped anyone. You fail to answer people's questions, and tend to go off on your own rabbit trails. You still fail to answer, in spite of your mixed uo theology, how these that you have mentioned will escape being "tormented day and night forever and forever in the lake of fire" (Rev.20:10).
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I'm pretty sure that the 'worms' here are figurative

So let's see, it is figurative when it supports your theology and not when it doesn't. Ah, I see! The double standard is so clear now!

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]No, the figurative label is applied where the Bible is being figurative. Since 'worms' cannot live through fire, we must come to the conclusion that either it was translated wrong, or it is figurative.

And you failed to answer the question. Are the worms 'immortal' worms?</font>[/QUOTE]I agree with Neal, they are figurative. That answers your question, if you pay attention. BTW, so does John Wesley agree with us:

"Where their worm - That gnaweth the soul, (pride, self will, desire, malice, envy, shame, sorrow, despair,) dieth not - No more than the soul itself: and the fire (either material, or infinitely worse!) that tormenteth the body, is not quenched for ever. Isa 66:24."

The worm is not an actual worm but figurative, denoting the soul. It is the soul that will never die in Hell. The fire will never be quenched. The soul will be tormented forever.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Revelations is not a chronological book. It is not in the 'order' in which it is going to happen.

Rev.14:10

Y----The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
X----and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
X----And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:
Y----and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The topic of the Y's are about before the 2nd Coming during the 7 Bowl judgements, the topic of the X's are after the Millenium.


Y----The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;
Y----and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
X----and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
X----11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:

This passage is an example of a complex chiasm in an antithetical parallel, of an antiphonal grouping.

You haven't stumped anyone. You fail to answer people's questions, and tend to go off on your own rabbit trails. You still fail to answer, in spite of your mixed uo theology, how these that you have mentioned will escape being "tormented day and night forever and forever in the lake of fire" (Rev.20:10).
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]My post is in response to your post:

posted February 01, 2003 12:30 AM

I have answered your questions, with scripture that you call 'not the words of God'.

Just because you don't respect the Bible doesn't mean that I didn't answer your questions.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

My post is in response to your post:

posted February 01, 2003 12:30 AM

I have answered your questions, with scripture that you call 'not the words of God'.

Just because you don't respect the Bible doesn't mean that I didn't answer your questions.

Posting Scripture doesn't answer questions. You can quote the Bible if you like, but that won't answer a person's question. Don't be naive please. You still haven't demonstrated how a person's torment will ascend forever and ever (Rev.14:11), and believe in your heretical doctrine of soul sleep at the same time.
Likewise you have the same trouble with Rev. 20:10
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I'm pretty sure that the 'worms' here are figurative

So let's see, it is figurative when it supports your theology and not when it doesn't. Ah, I see! The double standard is so clear now!

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]No, the figurative label is applied where the Bible is being figurative. Since 'worms' cannot live through fire, we must come to the conclusion that either it was translated wrong, or it is figurative.

And you failed to answer the question. Are the worms 'immortal' worms?</font>[/QUOTE]I agree with Neal, they are figurative. That answers your question, if you pay attention. BTW, so does John Wesley agree with us:

"Where their worm - That gnaweth the soul, (pride, self will, desire, malice, envy, shame, sorrow, despair,) dieth not - No more than the soul itself: and the fire (either material, or infinitely worse!) that tormenteth the body, is not quenched for ever. Isa 66:24."

The worm is not an actual worm but figurative, denoting the soul. It is the soul that will never die in Hell. The fire will never be quenched. The soul will be tormented forever.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]UH, that was ME who said they were figurative.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

UH, that was ME who said they were figurative.

Figurative of someone who will never die, never sleep, but always be tormented.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
[qb]

My post is in response to your post:

posted February 01, 2003 12:30 AM

I have answered your questions, with scripture that you call 'not the words of God'.

Just because you don't respect the Bible doesn't mean that I didn't answer your questions.

Posting Scripture doesn't answer questions. You can quote the Bible if you like, but that won't answer a person's question.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Don't be naive please.

Naive- Lacking worldly experience and understanding.....but this is mans definition not God's.
Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

You still haven't demonstrated how a person's torment will ascend forever and ever (Rev.14:11)

But you have again demonstrated your disrespect for the Word of God and CHANGED what it says!
You posted:
a person's torment will ascend forever and ever
The Bible says:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
And here is what the Bible says of people who do this:
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

....and believe in your heretical doctrine of soul sleep at the same time.

It is really quite simple, I believe the Bible because I love God. You probably don't because you cannot reconcile yourself to follow the Bible's study method:
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Likewise you have the same trouble with Rev. 20:10

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I don't have a problem with this verse. When this happens I will be happy and glad that God promised me this:
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And He has already proclaimed to all who reject His Word:
Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

The Seventh Day Adventist Church bases it's doctine on the WORD of GOD as a whole. We do not change, exclude, add to, or take away, from ANY of HIS WORDS.

ALL. That word has FINALITY to it.

I claim these verses in Jesus Name:
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Sorry if my use of the Word of God offended you, but it is the only thing in this world worth quoting.

God Bless

[ February 02, 2003, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

UH, that was ME who said they were figurative.

Figurative of someone who will never die, never sleep, but always be tormented.
DHK </font>

NOW the worms are being tormented?

This just keeps getting better and better!

 

[BobRyan]

DHK Posting Scripture doesn't answer questions. You can quote the Bible if you like, but that won't answer a person's question.

As it turns out - God's Word IS the best answer to doctinal questions. Surprised?

DHK Don't be naive please. You still haven't demonstrated how a person's torment will ascend forever and ever (Rev.14:11),

Rev 14 does not say "their torment will ascend forever".

Again - your position requires a misreading of the text -- a re-edit of the text?

"They will be tormented IN the Presence of Christ AND IN the presence of His saints.... and the SMOKE of their torment ascends up forever".
Rev 14:10-11.

Are you trying to ask if the SMOKE ascending forevere in Rev 14 is the SAME principle that we saw in the OT when SMOKE was ascending forever?

DHK
and believe in your heretical doctrine of soul sleep at the same time.

Are you arguing with the Apostle Paul's statement in 1Thess 4 about "Those who have fallen asleep"???

Or are you upset with Christ's statements about Lazarus in John 11 "Lazarus SLEEPS, I go that I may wake him"??

Do you find it "a problem" for you view that BOTH PAul and Christ would use that description for the "Dead in Christ"?

Again - I am assuming that the text is stating the matter in a way that is a problem for your tradition's view of the subject.

Is that the problem?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[neal4christ]

Don't tell me I actually stumped someone.

What of the verb form in 2 Peter 2:9 that I told you about? Do you just ignore it? See bottom of page 7.

Neal

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
DHK Posting Scripture doesn't answer questions. You can quote the Bible if you like, but that won't answer a person's question.

As it turns out - God's Word IS the best answer to doctinal questions. Surprised?

I know of a Muslim that read the entire Bible through, but still is a Muslim believing in Allah, and Mohammed as his prophet. Reading or posting Scripture does not do one iota of good unless you understand and believe what you are reading and/or posting.

DHK Don't be naive please. You still haven't demonstrated how a person's torment will ascend forever and ever (Rev.14:11),

Rev 14 does not say "their torment will ascend forever".

Again - your position requires a misreading of the text -- a re-edit of the text?

"They will be tormented IN the Presence of Christ AND IN the presence of His saints.... and the SMOKE of their torment ascends up forever".
Rev 14:10-11.

Are you trying to ask if the SMOKE ascending forevere in Rev 14 is the SAME principle that we saw in the OT when SMOKE was ascending forever?

[/QUOTE
I quoted, and paraphrased a bit by memory. I will do it more accurately for you this time:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
--Now it is fairly clear isn't it? The smoke of their torment will arise forever and ever. If it is the smoke of their torment, then it becomes obvious that their torment is forever and ever. "Their," meaning all who had worshipped the beast and had received his mark. That will have been a considerable number of people world-wide that we are speaking of--all tormented, day and night, forever and ever. This is no soul sleep.

Are you arguing with the Apostle Paul's statement in 1Thess 4 about "Those who have fallen asleep"???

I already explained this to 3AAngelsMom. "Sleep" and "death" are simply synonyms at times in the Scriptures. There is nothing difficult to understand about that. Those who have fallen asleep are those who died.

Or are you upset with Christ's statements about Lazarus in John 11 "Lazarus SLEEPS, I go that I may wake him"??

The same as above. Lazarus is dead. I go to raise him from the dead, or cause him to live.

Do you find it "a problem" for you view that BOTH PAul and Christ would use that description for the "Dead in Christ"?

Words have meanings; some of them have more than just one meaning.

Again - I am assuming that the text is stating the matter in a way that is a problem for your tradition's view of the subject.

I have no problem with any of the verses or texts; it is you that fail to explain how tormented forever and ever can mean anything else but what it says. That is your problem. It normally called "unbelief."
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Don't tell me I actually stumped someone.

What of the verb form in 2 Peter 2:9 that I told you about? Do you just ignore it? See bottom of page 7.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Do you actually think I would ignore you on purpose? I'll go check......

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The tense of this word is an action it is not a state of being word. The word 'being' is not in the original text. It is a verb. 'to punish', 'to cause to be punished', does not equate 'being punished'.

Did you ever think of it being a present passive middle participle? That means the action is presently being done to the ones it is referring to. Therfore you get "being punished". Presently occuring to the the ones being held. You really should look at what the verb form really is.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Well, considering that BEING would be the participle, and BEING is not in the text, it really doesn't matter if BEING is a participle. The word in question is 'punished' (kolazo) and in the light of the rest of the statement 'reserved', we automatically know the state of 'kolazo', is future tense.

Here is a comparison of the word 'reserved' (tereo):
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
(BTW, both of the words 'judgment' are the same as well.)
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment {to be punished:}

The word 'kolazo' is only in the Bible in ONE other place. It was translated there a little differntly that 'under punishment' or 'being punished', let's look:
Act 4:21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

Notice it is in FUTURE tense. The complete verb being 'might punish' indicates a future punishment. This verse is not referring to judgment, but it is the only other use of the word 'kolazo'.

Let's see what Job thought of this topic:

Job 21:27 Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me.
Job 21:28 For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked?
Job 21:29 Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens,
Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
Job 21:31 Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what he hath done?
Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.
Job 21:33 The clods of the valley shall be sweet unto him, and every man shall draw after him, as there are innumerable before him.
Job 21:34 How then comfort ye me in vain, seeing in your answers there remaineth falsehood?

Job had a good grasp on the Truth of Scripture. He was being attacked by people who saw his state. This man he is arguing with had just made the statement speaking of the wicked:
Job 20:26 All darkness shall be hid in his secret places: a fire not blown shall consume him; it shall go ill with him that is left in his tabernacle.

Job rebuked him, rather harshly, because he could see that this man was being manipulative and deceptive by mixing error with truth. Job 'knew his thoughts'. This man was trying to attest to the 'dead' being tormented.
Job set him straight.

Job 21:30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

The wicked IS reserved TO the day of judgment, and SHALL BE brought forth to the DAY of wrath.

There is no way that living in torment RIGHT now in a disembodied state, could NOT be a reception of the reward. If you believe that the reward is torment in hell, then saying these people are already there RIGHT NOW, is saying that they have already received their reward. Since the judgment HAS NOT taken place, that would make it impossible.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
Originally posted by BobRyan:
DHK Posting Scripture doesn't answer questions. You can quote the Bible if you like, but that won't answer a person's question.

As it turns out - God's Word IS the best answer to doctinal questions. Surprised?

I know of a Muslim that read the entire Bible through, but still is a Muslim believing in Allah, and Mohammed as his prophet. Reading or posting Scripture does not do one iota of good unless you understand and believe what you are reading and/or posting.

And as you have shown, it doesn't do one iota of good if the person you are posting them for has no respect for the Bible.

DHK Don't be naive please. You still haven't demonstrated how a person's torment will ascend forever and ever (Rev.14:11),

Rev 14 does not say "their torment will ascend forever".

Again - your position requires a misreading of the text -- a re-edit of the text?

"They will be tormented IN the Presence of Christ AND IN the presence of His saints.... and the SMOKE of their torment ascends up forever".
Rev 14:10-11.

Are you trying to ask if the SMOKE ascending forevere in Rev 14 is the SAME principle that we saw in the OT when SMOKE was ascending forever?

I quoted, and paraphrased a bit by memory. I will do it more accurately for you this time:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
--Now it is fairly clear isn't it? The smoke of their torment will arise forever and ever. If it is the smoke of their torment, then it becomes obvious that their torment is forever and ever. "Their," meaning all who had worshipped the beast and had received his mark. That will have been a considerable number of people world-wide that we are speaking of--all tormented, day and night, forever and ever. This is no soul sleep.

This verse has never been used to show soul sleep.
Forever does not mean 'through the ceasless ages of eternity'. I have already shown that IN THE BIBLE when the word 'forever' is used, it is referring to the end of something. Samuel, Jonah, the slave, the STATUTES of the Levitical sacrificial laws. ALL of those people died. Jonah was not IN the belly of the fish 'for all eternity', the slave is not serving his master now, and Samuel is not in the Temple in Jerusalem serving God right now.
There ARE applications of the words 'for ever and ever' that DO mean 'for all eternity' and they apply to God, and the redeemed Saints. NEVER are they applied to MORTAL wicked people, who WILL NOT receive immortal bodies.

Are you arguing with the Apostle Paul's statement in 1Thess 4 about "Those who have fallen asleep"???

I already explained this to 3AAngelsMom. "Sleep" and "death" are simply synonyms at times in the Scriptures. There is nothing difficult to understand about that. Those who have fallen asleep are those who died.

SO then you admit that 2 words can have the same meaning, and also at the same time have a different meaning? Kind of like 'for ever'?

Or are you upset with Christ's statements about Lazarus in John 11 "Lazarus SLEEPS, I go that I may wake him"??

The same as above. Lazarus is dead. I go to raise him from the dead, or cause him to live.

SO then if Lazarus was dead, and Jesus raised him, why don't we have a 'I went to Heaven and Jesus made me come back' testimony by Lazarus? Don't you think that would have been a prime opportunity to MAKE CLEAR this doctrine? Interestinly enough NONE of the people that were resurrected by Jesus or the Apostles ever spoke of there being ANYTHING while they were 'dead' (asleep).

Do you find it "a problem" for you view that BOTH PAul and Christ would use that description for the "Dead in Christ"?

Words have meanings; some of them have more than just one meaning.

Kind of like 'for ever and ever'?

Again - I am assuming that the text is stating the matter in a way that is a problem for your tradition's view of the subject.

I have no problem with any of the verses or texts; it is you that fail to explain how tormented forever and ever can mean anything else but what it says. That is your problem. It normally called "unbelief."

Actually it is normally called understanding. The Bible doesn't support the doctrine of eternal torment. As a whole, the Bible teaches that the dead are unconscious, without thought, and silent, as they sleep awaiting the resurrection. The Bible further teaches that ONLY the righteous inherit eternal life, and the wicked do not receive immortality. That is a gift that ONLY the saved get. The choices are not 'eternal life in heaven' or 'eternal life in hell'. The choices are 'eternal life' or 'death'.

The nature of that death IS eternal. The duration is not. Death is not something that can have a duration. It is a thing that happens, and once it does it is a state. Death passes upon all men. That means they die, not 'their body dies but the 'spirit' goes to heaven or hell'. The SOUL that sins will die. I have already shown IN DEPTH that a soul ceases to be a soul when it dies. Dust with breath is a living soul. There is no mention there AT creation of God putting a 'spirit' or 'ghost' in that SOUL.

God Bless.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

This verse has never been used to show soul sleep.
Forever does not mean 'through the ceasless ages of eternity'. I have already shown that IN THE BIBLE when the word 'forever' is used, it is referring to the end of something. Samuel, Jonah, the slave, the STATUTES of the Levitical sacrificial laws. ALL of those people died. Jonah was not IN the belly of the fish 'for all eternity', the slave is not serving his master now, and Samuel is not in the Temple in Jerusalem serving God right now.
There ARE applications of the words 'for ever and ever' that DO mean 'for all eternity' and they apply to God, and the redeemed Saints. NEVER are they applied to MORTAL wicked people, who WILL NOT receive immortal bodies.

3AngelsMom says, Never does not mean never; eternal does not mean eternal. And in Rev.20:10
"shall be tormented day and night forever and ever," does not mean "tormented," does not mean "day and night," and does not mean "forever and forever." This is blatant unbelief and denial.

Using 3AngelsMom logic: IPet.3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Christ didn't suffer, just like those in Rev.20:10 were not tormented. Never did He suffer, not even "once" just as those in Rev. 20:10 will forever and ever. He wasn't even put to death in the flesh. It was just a sleep that Christ took. If just a sleep, there was no need for a resurrection at all. Christ really didn't rise again from the dead for he really didn't die in the first place. Isn't amazing with the things you can do with Scripture, when you begin to spiritualize and allegorize everything. However I wouldn't be too surprised if you believed all of the above.
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

Well, considering that BEING would be the participle, and BEING is not in the text

Umm....that is how you translate that participle of "to punish". "Being punished" is the passive participle form. Check it out. I am not making this up. I used Zodhiates Word Study Bible on CDROM to get the participle form for the verb "to punish" in this passage. That is the correct translation for that verb form, "being punished". Funny, that is what the Word of God says, and you say it doesn't say that.

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
Originally posted by 3AngelsMom: This verse has never been used to show soul sleep.
Forever does not mean 'through the ceasless ages of eternity'. I have already shown that IN THE BIBLE when the word 'forever' is used, it is referring to the end of something. Samuel, Jonah, the slave, the STATUTES of the Levitical sacrificial laws. ALL of those people died. Jonah was not IN the belly of the fish 'for all eternity', the slave is not serving his master now, and Samuel is not in the Temple in Jerusalem serving God right now.
There ARE applications of the words 'for ever and ever' that DO mean 'for all eternity' and they apply to God, and the redeemed Saints. NEVER are they applied to MORTAL wicked people, who WILL NOT receive immortal bodies.

3AngelsMom says, Never does not mean never; eternal does not mean eternal.

I'm sorry did you want to QUOTE me saying that or did you just want to misrepresent me again?

Pretty sure I just USED the word NEVER to say that the WICKED will NEVER receive immortality.
NEVER means NEVER. Not ever. Won't happen. As opposed to WILL happen.

And in Rev.20:10
"shall be tormented day and night forever and ever," does not mean "tormented," does not mean "day and night," and does not mean "forever and forever." This is blatant unbelief and denial.

Actually it is blatant misrepresentation. You like doing that don't you? Let me give you some advice: COPY AND PASTE.
Tormented does mean tormented. Day and night, means DAY and NIGHT, and for ever means for ever. ALL of these must be viewed in the light of WHO they are talking about. The wicked WILL be tormented, until they die. There will be people going into the fire, day and night, until the judgment is over. (there are quite a few people who will be going through the judgment) They will burn forever, which is until they die.
On the flip side, which I have already pointed out and you conveniently ignored, there ARE times in the Bible where for ever means eternity. When referring to GOD who immortal, omnipotent, all knowing and to the Saints who are redeemed from the earth and given immortal bodies. THEY will live for all eternity.

Just like you said. Some words have more than one meaning.

Using 3AngelsMom logic: IPet.3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Christ didn't suffer, just like those in Rev.20:10 were not tormented. Never did He suffer, not even "once" just as those in Rev. 20:10 will forever and ever. He wasn't even put to death in the flesh. It was just a sleep that Christ took. If just a sleep, there was no need for a resurrection at all. Christ really didn't rise again from the dead for he really didn't die in the first place. Isn't amazing with the things you can do with Scripture, when you begin to spiritualize and allegorize everything. However I wouldn't be too surprised if you believed all of the above.
DHK

Once again you prove my point, although, I would like to rephrase my point.

Original:
Pot calling the kettle black

New One:
Ignorance should be painful.

Does the word insolent mean anything to you?

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Well, considering that BEING would be the participle, and BEING is not in the text

Umm....that is how you translate that participle of "to punish". "Being punished" is the passive participle form. Check it out. I am not making this up. I used Zodhiates Word Study Bible on CDROM to get the participle form for the verb "to punish" in this passage. That is the correct translation for that verb form, "being punished". Funny, that is what the Word of God says, and you say it doesn't say that.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]You said:
"I used Zodhiates Word Study Bible on CDROM to get the participle form for the verb "to punish" in this passage."

Then you said:
"Funny, that is what the Word of God says, and you say it doesn't say that."

It can't be both. Either you got it from the Word of God or you got if from Spiros.

What word is in the original?

'kolazomenous' (punishment)

Which indeed IS a present passive participle. BUT it is part of a complete verb.

The complete verb is:

'kolazomenous teerein' (punishment reserved)

With kolazomenous in the present passive participle and teerein in the present infinitive, it creates a 'present passive participle' that is wholly dependent on the TIME of the 'present infinitive'.

So, the word 'kolazomenous' which means 'to be punished' is dependent upon 'teerein' which means 'reserved' to denote WHEN it becomes 'present'.

Laymans terms:

Reserved is left infinite in this verse. The punishment is to be done IN the TIME that the infinite is denoting, which is the judgment, and until that time, the punishment is reserved right along with the wicked waiting for the judgment.

God Bless

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

3AngelsMom says, Never does not mean never; eternal does not mean eternal.

I'm sorry did you want to QUOTE me saying that or did you just want to misrepresent me again?
Pretty sure I just USED the word NEVER to say that the WICKED will NEVER receive immortality.
NEVER means NEVER. Not ever. Won't happen. As opposed to WILL happen.

And in Rev.20:10
"shall be tormented day and night forever and ever," does not mean "tormented," does not mean "day and night," and does not mean "forever and forever." This is blatant unbelief and denial.

Actually it is blatant misrepresentation. You like doing that don't you? Let me give you some advice: COPY AND PASTE.
Tormented does mean tormented. Day and night, means DAY and NIGHT, and for ever means for ever. ALL of these must be viewed in the light of WHO they are talking about. The wicked WILL be tormented, until they die. There will be people going into the fire, day and night, until the judgment is over. (there are quite a few people who will be going through the judgment) They will burn forever, which is until they die.
On the flip side, which I have already pointed out and you conveniently ignored, there ARE times in the Bible where for ever means eternity. When referring to GOD who immortal, omnipotent, all knowing and to the Saints who are redeemed from the earth and given immortal bodies. THEY will live for all eternity.
Just like you said. Some words have more than one meaning.

Using 3AngelsMom logic: IPet.3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Christ didn't suffer, just like those in Rev.20:10 were not tormented. Never did He suffer, not even "once" just as those in Rev. 20:10 will forever and ever. He wasn't even put to death in the flesh. It was just a sleep that Christ took. If just a sleep, there was no need for a resurrection at all. Christ really didn't rise again from the dead for he really didn't die in the first place. Isn't amazing with the things you can do with Scripture, when you begin to spiritualize and allegorize everything. However I wouldn't be too surprised if you believed all of the above.
DHK

Once again you prove my point, although, I would like to rephrase my point.
Original:
Pot calling the kettle black
</font>

You really don't have much too say here do you? The fact is words are to be taken literally, unless context can conclusively show that they should not be, or that they should be taken figuratively. You have failed to do that. Context in either Rev.14:10,11 or the whole of Rev.20:10-15 does not indicate that we should be taking anything figuratively. These are events that will happen. These are individuals that will be cast into a literal lake of fire and will be tormented day and night forever and ever. If words mean anything to you, you will believe the straight literal meaning of the Bible, or flatly deny it. The entirety of Scripture cannot be spiritualized or taken figuratively at a person's whim and will. Context determines the meaning. The meaning of "tomented day and night forever and ever," is exactly as the context meant it to be, literally. Look the words up in a dictionary; take the primary meaning of each word; and you will have the understanding of those verses. To do anything else with it is perverting the Word of God, and that is what you insist on doing.
DHK

 

[neal4christ]

Okay, 3AngelsMom. Yeah, Mr. Zodhiates really did change what the Word of God says! I am sorry, but "reserved being punished" does not sound like it is waiting till the day of judgement. Well, I guess there is nothing else to say to you. Have fun!

Neal