Will the LORD Actually Sit Upon the Throne of David in Zion Per Ps 132:11-18

[JD731]

Do Baptists believe these words they read?

Here is what is said in those verses and the answer before comments should be a yes or a no.

11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.
16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.
17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed.
18 His enemies will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish.

My answer is a solid yes and I say, WOW, It could not be stated more clearly than this.

 

[xlsdraw]

Absolutely.

 

[David Lamb]

Do Baptists believe these words they read?

Here is what is said in those verses and the answer before comments should be a yes or a no.

11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.
16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.
17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed.
18 His enemies will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish.

My answer is a solid yes and I say, WOW, It could not be stated more clearly than this.

When somebody asks, "Do Baptists believe/do so-and-so?" we need to remember that one of the Baptist distinctives is the autonomy, under Christ, of the local church. So, except in a few cases such as believers' baptism, it isn't right to say that Baptists believe or do certain things. In this case, I am sure some Baptists believe that Christ will sit on the literal throne of David in earthly Zion, but by no means all do.

I am a Baptist, and I believe what John Gill wrote in his commentary on Psalm 132:

"So he was set upon the throne of David, as it was foretold both by the prophet Isaiah, and by the angel to the virgin, he should, Isa 9:6,7 Lu 1:32,33; not in a literal sense; for though he was no doubt right heir to the throne of David so understood, yet his kingdom was not of this world; but he was set as King over God’s holy hill of Zion, the church; and reigned over the house of Jacob, the whole Israel of God; the mystical and spiritual Israel, consisting of Jews and Gentiles: his throne, or the seat of his kingdom, is the church; his sceptre the Gospel; his crown the glory true believers in him give him; his laws, by which he rules, are its his word, and written in the hearts of his subjects; and his kingdom shall continue for ever."

 

[JD731]

When somebody asks, "Do Baptists believe/do so-and-so?" we need to remember that one of the Baptist distinctives is the autonomy, under Christ, of the local church. So, except in a few cases such as believers' baptism, it isn't right to say that Baptists believe or do certain things. In this case, I am sure some Baptists believe that Christ will sit on the literal throne of David in earthly Zion, but by no means all do.

I am a Baptist, and I believe what John Gill wrote in his commentary on Psalm 132:

"So he was set upon the throne of David, as it was foretold both by the prophet Isaiah, and by the angel to the virgin, he should, Isa 9:6,7 Lu 1:32,33; not in a literal sense; for though he was no doubt right heir to the throne of David so understood, yet his kingdom was not of this world; but he was set as King over God’s holy hill of Zion, the church; and reigned over the house of Jacob, the whole Israel of God; the mystical and spiritual Israel, consisting of Jews and Gentiles: his throne, or the seat of his kingdom, is the church; his sceptre the Gospel; his crown the glory true believers in him give him; his laws, by which he rules, are its his word, and written in the hearts of his subjects; and his kingdom shall continue for ever."

Concerning what I have underlined above, David, what if I told you that Paul, who wrote the doctrines and the explanation of the church of Jesus Christ and how it apllies to gentiles, and who received all the mysteries of it by revelation, did not use the word "throne" and he used the word "thrones" only once? Here;

Co;l 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Being honest, don't you think that is more than a little strange given all the emphasis and swearing that God did about it in the OT and in the gospels, and even in the Acts?

1 Cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward. (gentile-ward)
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

WOW! The dispensation of the grace of God is the definition of the mystery of Christ???? Given to Paul who was not even saved until seven years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ and thousands of Jews had already been saved during those previous 7 years, long before the mystery was revealed?

Could John Gill have been wrong??

 

[Dave G]

Do Baptists believe these words they read?

I've asked myself that very question many times over the years...
In fact, It seems to me that there are so few professing Christians ( "Baptist" or otherwise ) that actually believe the Scriptures on all subjects ( not just this one ).

Sadly,
It shouldn't surprise me all that much, given the times that we are in;
For that's where we seem to be in these last days...the "falling away" spoken of by Paul to the Thessalonians.

 

[JD731]

I've asked myself that very question many times over the years...
In fact, It seems to me that there are so few professing Christians ( "Baptist" or otherwise ) that actually believe the Scriptures on all subjects ( not just this one ).

Sadly,
It shouldn't surprise me all that much, given the times that we are in;
For that's where we seem to be in these last days...the "falling away" spoken of by Paul to the Thessalonians.

I share your grief Dave G. The church cannot survive without authoritative words from God. God knows that. He warned us about division over words and told us to speak the same things. Most of the Baptists here have traded words for philosophies and believe in themselves. I think he has permitted this end times translation frenzy to test us, but that's just me.

But, what about a yes or no on the op..

 

[David Lamb]

Concerning what I have underlined above, David, what if I told you that Paul, who wrote the doctrines and the explanation of the church of Jesus Christ and how it apllies to gentiles, and who received all the mysteries of it by revelation, did not use the word "throne" and he used the word "thrones" only once? Here;

Co;l 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Being honest, don't you think that is more than a little strange given all the emphasis and swearing that God did about it in the OT and in the gospels, and even in the Acts?

1 Cor 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward. (gentile-ward)
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

WOW! The dispensation of the grace of God is the definition of the mystery of Christ???? Given to Paul who was not even saved until seven years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ and thousands of Jews had already been saved during those previous 7 years, long before the mystery was revealed?

Could John Gill have been wrong??

Sorry, you seem to have misunderstood what I was saying. My point was that it is wrong to ask, "Do Baptists believe/do such-and-such?" because Baptists hold to the autonomy of the local church under Christ. I gave the example of John Gill (and myself) as Baptists who don't believe that Jesus will sit on the literal throne of David in the earthly Zion. I am sure there are other Baptists who do believe that.

 

[Deacon]

Will the LORD Actually Sit Upon the Throne of David?

Isn't Jesus already seated on the throne?

Promise:
Psalm 89:26–29 (NASB 2020)
He will call to Me, ‘You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.’
I will also make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.
I will maintain My favor for him forever, And My covenant shall be confirmed to him.
So I will establish his descendants forever, And his throne as the days of heaven.

Psalm 110:1 The Lord says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

Fulfillment:
Acts 2:33–35 Therefore, since He has been exalted at the right hand of God, and has received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear. For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” ’

Ephesians 1:20–22 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and made Him head over all things to the church,Acts 5:31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Colossians 3:1 Therefore, if you have been raised with Christ, keep seeking the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.​

Colossians 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Hebrews 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Christ now sits upon the throne of David at God's right hand.

Rob

 

[Dave G]

But, what about a yes or no on the op

I would think that was self-evident given my post, but to answer the question with a "yes" or a "no"...
By and large, no they do not;
On many subjects.

From my perspective, they'd rather believe what their local church or even the radio teaches, and not God's very words.

 

[Dave G]

Christ now sits upon the throne of David at God's right hand.

Rob, David's throne was at Jerusalem.
Right now, and according to God's word, He currently sits on the right hand of His Father God, making intercession for the saints.

If He were sitting on David's throne, He would be in Jerusalem, would He not?

 

[JD731]

Sorry, you seem to have misunderstood what I was saying. My point was that it is wrong to ask, "Do Baptists believe/do such-and-such?" because Baptists hold to the autonomy of the local church under Christ. I gave the example of John Gill (and myself) as Baptists who don't believe that Jesus will sit on the literal throne of David in the earthly Zion. I am sure there are other Baptists who do believe that.

David, I mentioned Baptists because I am on a site for Baptists only and I note that Baptists here hardly agree on anything. So I did not ask my question based on Baptist teaching but I asked Baptists if they believed what Ps 132:11-18 says. When you say you do not believe what it says you are obviously viewing the words as a metaphor or a similitude or a parable or a figure in spite of the fact the passage is dealing with specific and known personalities and places and things like Jehovah and David and Zion and a throne on earth.

If you don’t mind my asking how did you determine this passage is a parable?

 

[Deacon]

Rob, David's throne was at Jerusalem.
Right now, and according to God's word, He currently sits on the right hand of His Father God, making intercession for the saints.

If He were sitting on David's throne, He would be in Jerusalem, would He not?

So you are differentiating David's throne and the Throne of God.

QUESTION: Are you speaking of a physical throne of David (hidden somewhere in Israel)

...or a symbolic throne (one holding the position and full authority of David)?​

The authors of the NT were quoting passages from the OT to support the full authority and kingship of Jesus.
They quoted these OT passages to indicate where Christ was sitting, at "God's right hand."

Peter was convinced that Jesus received the promises and he preached that message to the Jews of every nation at Pentecost (Acts 2:29–33).
Peter's message to the Jews was that Jesus fulfilled these promises.

“Brothers, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
So because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne,
he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.
It is this Jesus whom God raised up, a fact to which we are all witnesses.
Therefore, since He has been exalted at the right hand of God, and has received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear. (NASB 2020)​

Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you of these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Rob

 

[Dave G]

So you are differentiating David's throne and the Throne of God.

Yes.
One is of David ( a man ) and is an earthly throne, and one is of God ( a Spirit ) and is a heavenly throne.

QUESTION: Are you speaking of a physical throne of David (hidden somewhere in Israel)
...or a symbolic throne (one holding the position and full authority of David)?

Both, but it's not hidden...the throne of David resides in the lineage.
Wherever an earthly king sits and rules from, that is where the seat of his power is and that is where the throne is.

Scripture tells us that the physical throne of David was at Jerusalem, and has not existed since the time of the Babylonian captivity...
The last of David's line to actually rule and reign from there was the king of Judah at the time of the carrying away...Zedekiah.


Since then, no one who was of David's physical lineage has sat in Jerusalem as king over Israel.

 

[Dave G]

But another King will come who is of that line ( Matthew 1:1-17, Luke 3:23-38 ), and we know who He is.
His reign will be the fulfillment of this passage, among many others:

" Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 but, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land." ( Jeremiah 23:5-8 ).

God's word very specifically tells us that the King who is to come, will rule from Jerusalem...not heaven ( Zechariah 14, among many others. ):

" 7 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

Jesus will be at Jerusalem someday, sitting on the throne of David ( not the throne of God )...and I look forward to it.

 

[percho]

But another King will come who is of that line ( Matthew 1:1-17, Luke 3:23-38 ), and we know who He is.
His reign will be the fulfillment of this passage, among many others:

" Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 but, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land." ( Jeremiah 23:5-8 ).

God's word very specifically tells us that the King who is to come, will rule from Jerusalem...not heaven ( Zechariah 14, among many others. ):

" 7 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

Jesus will be at Jerusalem someday, sitting on the throne of David ( not the throne of God )...and I look forward to it.

I like and I will add.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

Also compare that verse with Acts 15:16,17 YLT

After these things I will turn back, and I will build again the tabernacle of David, that is fallen down, and its ruins I will build again, and will set it upright -- that the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and all the nations, upon whom My name hath been called, saith the Lord, who is doing all these things.

Notice the residue of men call upon the Lord and those God took out of the nations for his name.

 

[David Lamb]

God's word very specifically tells us that the King who is to come, will rule from Jerusalem...not heaven ( Zechariah 14, among many others. ):

" 7 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain."

Jesus will be at Jerusalem someday, sitting on the throne of David ( not the throne of God )...and I look forward to it.

Zechariah 14:7 says:

“It shall be one day Which is known to the LORD — Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen [That] it will be light.” (Zec 14:7 NKJV)

I think you may mean Zechariah 14:17:

“And it shall be [that] whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.” (Zec 14:17 NKJV)

If that means the literal Jerusalem, that would make nonsense of what Jesus said to the woman at the well:

“Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.” (Joh 4:21 NKJV)

 

[JD731]

Zechariah 14:7 says:

“It shall be one day Which is known to the LORD — Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen [That] it will be light.” (Zec 14:7 NKJV)

I think you may mean Zechariah 14:17:

“And it shall be [that] whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.” (Zec 14:17 NKJV)

If that means the literal Jerusalem, that would make nonsense of what Jesus said to the woman at the well:

“Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.” (Joh 4:21 NKJV)

I wonder, David, about the reasoning and how a statement without context by Jesus Christ to a woman in Samaria would negate and make void the testimony and prophesies of God and man in all the prophets in the old and new testaments that says Jesus Christ will sit on the throne of David in Jerusalem.. I could create a doctrine by using that verse like you have that says one can worship God wherever he is on earth except in Samaria and in Jerusalem. God will accept no worship from those two places and it would be just as true as your doctrine. But both of us would be violating the context and we would be teaching error.

 

[JD731]

So you are differentiating David's throne and the Throne of God.

QUESTION: Are you speaking of a physical throne of David (hidden somewhere in Israel)

...or a symbolic throne (one holding the position and full authority of David)?​

The authors of the NT were quoting passages from the OT to support the full authority and kingship of Jesus.
They quoted these OT passages to indicate where Christ was sitting, at "God's right hand."

Peter was convinced that Jesus received the promises and he preached that message to the Jews of every nation at Pentecost (Acts 2:29–33).
Peter's message to the Jews was that Jesus fulfilled these promises.

“Brothers, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
So because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne,
he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay.
It is this Jesus whom God raised up, a fact to which we are all witnesses.
Therefore, since He has been exalted at the right hand of God, and has received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, He has poured out this which you both see and hear. (NASB 2020)​

Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you of these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

Rob

Here is a little logic. It is a story about a near kins person sitting on David's throne without it ceasing to be David's throne or this person sitting at the king's right hand not sharing in the rule of the kingdom.

18 And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king.
19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right hand.

24 Now therefore, as the LORD liveth, which hath established me (Solomon), and set me on the throne of David my father, and who hath made me an house, as he promised, Adonijah shall be put to death this day.

The throne of David was in Jerusalem
It remained the throne of David after David died
It was the throne of David when his son Solomon was sitting on it
There was not a co-rule when someone temporarily sat on his throne at his right hand.
The throne of David has never been in heaven.
The throne of David is not at the right hand of the Father.

Jesus Christ is temporarily sitting on the Father's throne in heaven at his right hand, a place of honor but not of sovereign rule but to intercede for others to the God as Bathsheba did to Solomon for Adonijah.

Lu 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, (temporarily - see next verse)
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (but not King on David's Throne yet)

18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The plan is for Jesus to return to earth to establish his physical and literal kingdom and to rule as King over all the nations from Jerusalem where David's throne is.

Here is a tidbit for you. In the Psalms there are 12 prayers in 12 different Psalms to our Lord from his people Israel to "arise" and save them from the enemy, who we learn is the antichrist. In only one of those prayers does the Lord speak and then just in one verse. It is in Ps 12:5. Here is what he says;

Ps 12:5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

He is speaking of arising from the Father's throne where he has been sitting since he ascended in Acts 1.

 

[kyredneck]

Will the LORD Actually Sit Upon the Throne of David in Zion Per Ps 132:11-18

No.

From a Baptist that has 'fallen' far away from the sensationalism of Dispensationalism.

 

[JD731]

No.

From a Baptist that has 'fallen' far away from the sensationalism of Dispensationalism.

I have no way of knowing what you think of Jesus Christ and the revelations of God in his words concerning his person and his offices except by your words you write but I think he is indeed sensational and I wish I had a word that transcends this word "sensational" for him but I have a limited vocabulary. I am sorry you feel this way about him and his kingdom and that you have apostatized. Few people will admit it and I do admire you for being one who will, even as it saddens me so because I like you.