Will the return of Christ be in 2 stages?

[BrotherJoseph]

Because He is coming for His Bride the church First, why because He made that promise. Revelation 3:10 He said that He would keep those who have kept the word of His endurance (patience) from the Time of Trial (temptation) which is coming upon those dwelling upon the earth..

Revelation 3:10 needs to be understood in terms of prior scripture from the same writer John, Jesus said, “In the world you shall have tribulation…” (John 16:33), then He says, “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil” (John 17:15). Therefore we see Jesus did not pray that the church be taken out of the world during tribulation, but rather the church was to remain in the world, but it would not be of the world.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Then we see the things to come hereafter in Revelation 4 and the Church is not mentioned as being on earth after that point. What we see is the 144,000 from the 12 tribes listed of Israel. Christ revealed it all in the boom of Revelation.

Peter told Christians to "hope to the end for the grace that is brought unto you at the REVELATION of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13). By teaching that Christ comes first in the RAPTURE, then later in the REVELATION, you face serious difficulties with this verse. It would not be necessary for Christians to hope to the end for the grace to be brought to them at the REVELATION of Christ, if, in reality, this grace was to be given at a separate rapture years before!

 

[BrotherJoseph]

. Then we see the things to come hereafter in Revelation 4 and the Church is not mentioned as being on earth after that point. What we see is the 144,000 from the 12 tribes listed of Israel. Christ revealed it all in the boom of Revelation.

Brother Revmwc,

If the absence of the word "church can prove the church is absent in chapters 4-18, we would have to conclude that the church is also absent in chapter 19, for the word does not appear in that chapter either! Nor does it appear in Chapter 20 or chapter 21! Also, while the word "church" does not appear after chapter three until the last part of Revelation, the church is not absent in those chapters. In Revelation 13:7, we read that the beast would "make war with the saints." Verse 10 mentions the "patience and faith of the saints"-patience and faith in the midst of persecutions. The "saints" are again mentioned in chapter 16, verse 6. In chapter 17 we read about the Babylonian woman, "drunken with the blood of the saints" (verse 6) and that "in her was found the blood of the saints" (Revelation 18:24), are not the "saints" the church?

 

[revmwc]

Peter told Christians to "hope to the end for the grace that is brought unto you at the REVELATION of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13). By teaching that Christ comes first in the RAPTURE, then later in the REVELATION, you face serious difficulties with this verse. It would not be necessary for Christians to hope to the end for the grace to be brought to them at the REVELATION of Christ, if, in reality, this grace was to be given at a separate rapture years before!

Not at all for their are believers who are saved after the church is taken to Heaven. We know that 144,000 are saved shortly after the church is removed and we see throughout that period that others come to Christ. In fcat we see, Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." His people all those saved during the Tribulation.
Revelation 14:
9 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Now to understand the Snatching away of the Bride we must understand the marriage process of Jesus time and that give us the way those John wrote Revelation too would understand it.

Let me explain the marriage process of Christ Time as I found it in researching this:

A. Here is the process of a marriage in Jesus time.

1. The betrothal process
2. This would be the age in which we currently live
3. A suitable spouse for the bride or Bridegroom was sought out.
4. The church in our day is the Bride which will be suitable for the Bridegroom Christ.
5. The second part of the betrothal was a “prenuptial agreement”
6. The two parties would enter that agreement and sign it before witnesses.
7. Remember Mary was “betrothed” to Joseph, they had entered this stage.
8. Once this had been entered then there would be no sexual relations between them.
9. If either was found in adultery which it would be considered a bill of divorcement would have to be issued.
10. If either party died before the actual ceremony then the other would be considered a widow or widower.

B. The next step was the Wedding


1. The length of the betrothal was generally a year.
2. The wedding was a special ceremony you see that is where we are in Revelation 19.
3. The wedding started with the procession of the groom and his companion’s to the bride’s home that occurred in chapter 4.
4. The company would then escort the Bride and her companions back to the groom’s home.
5. Where there would be a special meal prepared.
6. A celebration ensued until a written marriage contract was issued.
7. The couple would then be escorted to a special “bridal chamber”
8. Where they consummated the marriage.
9. Marriage festivities continued for up to a week.
10. Remember what we see in 1st Peter 3:7-9, 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
11. God’s timetable the marriage celebration has been ensuing for 1 week or the last 7 years of Daniel’s prophecy.
12. The time to issue the marriage contract has come.
13. The Bride is now adorned and ready for the marriage.
14. That is why Christ comes and we meet Him in the Air.


B. We see verses 8 & 9 now, 8 "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

1. She is now arrayed and prepared.
2. Fine linen clean and white
3. Fine linen the righteousness of saints
4. Now others are called to the marriage feast of the Lamb.
5. These are what God is saying.
6. Do you see the marriage process?
7. The Bride was brought for the time of the Tribulation and the festivities have been taking place in Heaven while the Tribulation is occurring on Earth.
8. Now is the time for the Marriage contract to be issued and the marriage feast to continue.


A. The Bride has been preparing herself for a week,

1. Every spot and every blemish was being removed

2. The wood hay and straw which most believers received had to finish burning

C.Each of the rewards not of intrinsic value had to be consumed

1. You see those were the rewards of the things done in the flesh by the believer
2. The Bride had been preparing herself
3. She had been 7 years or as we see in Daniels 70 weeks the last week of Daniel’s weeks was in full swing on the Earth!
4. The Bride had been in Heaven during this time preparing for the wedding,
5. All her works done in the flesh had to be fully consumed
6. And her dress made spotless for the wedding and verse 7 said the time for that marriage had come.


D. Now the Lord is set to return to the Earth this is the Second Coming of The Lord Jesus seen here in verse 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

1. Heaven is opened and a white Horse was beheld by John
2. The marriage now complete the Lord will come forth to complete the redemption of the earth itself.
3. The Bride now fully married to the Bridegroom it is time for Him to reign in His Kingdom.
4. So Heaven is opened!
5. The Bridegroom comes forth on a white horse!
6. Remember this is a different White Horse and rider than what was seen in Chapter 6.
7. He is coming forth here to return
8. As King of Kings and Lord of Lords

That is the second coming and the marriage must take place before His return according to Revelation 19.

 

[revmwc]

Brother Revmwc,

If the absence of the word "church can prove the church is absent in chapters 4-18, we would have to conclude that the church is also absent in chapter 19, for the word does not appear in that chapter either! Nor does it appear in Chapter 20 or chapter 21! Also, while the word "church" does not appear after chapter three until the last part of Revelation, the church is not absent in those chapters. In Revelation 13:7, we read that the beast would "make war with the saints." Verse 10 mentions the "patience and faith of the saints"-patience and faith in the midst of persecutions. The "saints" are again mentioned in chapter 16, verse 6. In chapter 17 we read about the Babylonian woman, "drunken with the blood of the saints" (verse 6) and that "in her was found the blood of the saints" (Revelation 18:24), are not the "saints" the church?

But it does appear in chapter 19,
7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

If she is still on earth how has she, the wife (the Church, the Bride) of Christ been in Heaven and made herself ready? The Marriage takes place in Heaven before the return to earth, she is already ther, and where and when did she get there?
Notice too as He comes we see verse 14 of Chapter 19,
14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."
What do we see about how the Bride is adorned? Verse 8 of chapter 19, "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

The Church is seen as quite evident in Chapter 19. The wife the army all dressed in fine linen clean and white. That is the Church, the Bride and Wife of Christ. And she comes with Him at His return to the Earth.

 

[revmwc]

Revelation 3:10 needs to be understood in terms of prior scripture from the same writer John, Jesus said, “In the world you shall have tribulation…” (John 16:33), then He says, “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil” (John 17:15). Therefore we see Jesus did not pray that the church be taken out of the world during tribulation, but rather the church was to remain in the world, but it would not be of the world.

Except the word in John 16:33 has a different Greek word than Revelation 3:10. John 16:33 is THLIPSIN many affliction, while Revelation 3:10 uses peirasmou meaning trial. Again In John 17:15 we have yet another Greek word that you show as tribulation it is ponErou wicked of wicked one. Protection in this world while the Church is here He asked for protection from the evil one that is protection from Satan as we walk in this world.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Not at all for their are believers who are saved after the church is taken to Heaven. We know that 144,000 are saved shortly after the church is removed and we see throughout that period that others come to Christ. In fcat we see, Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." His people all those saved during the.

It is not consistent Biblical hermeneutics to say the "saints" mentioned in chapter 4-18 of Revelation do not mean the church saints, but rather tribulation saints. For one, when we find the word "saints" in chapter 19, we are told this refers to the church. "The marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white, for the fine linen of saints" (Revelation 19:7-8) . The Scofield footnote says: "The Lamb's wife here is the "bride", the Church". But to be consistent, if the saints in Revelation 19 are church saints, how can some rightly argue that the saints mentioned in the chapter before (chapter 18), the chapter before that (chapter 17), the chapter before that (chapter 16), and chapter 13 are some different kind of saints? This is arbitrary.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Then we see the things to come hereafter in Revelation 4 and the Church is not mentioned as being on earth after that point..

The rapture is not the subject of Revelation 4:1, it simply records the experience of John-in spirit-being taken into the heavenly realm. This does not prove we should look for the church in heaven any more than his being taken into the wilderness, to Babylon, would prove the church was there (Revelation 17:3-5). As the various scenes of Revelation unfold, John is represented as being different places-on the earth (he see an angel "code down (not go down) from heaven"-Revelation 10:1, 18:1), he measures what is, apparently, an earthly temple, for its courts are trodden down by Gentiles (Revelation 11:1), he stands upon the sand of the sea and watches a best rise from its waters (Revelation 13:1). Plainly, John cannon be a consistent type of the church in heaven during these chapters.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Except the word in John 16:33 has a different Greek word than Revelation 3:10. John 16:33 is THLIPSIN many affliction, while Revelation 3:10 uses peirasmou meaning trial. .

Yes, but notice the same Greek word for "tribulation" in John 16:33 is used in Mark 13:24 where we read, "24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,", thus that Greek word can indeed be referring to the same tribulation in Revelation. Also, the definition of "affliction" and "trial" as you probably know are pretty much synonyms, thus the distinction between the two different Greek words being used in the two verses isn't as significant as you want it to be.

 

[Van]

Brother Van,

Jesus said "Occupy till I COME" (Luke 19:13). How could the church occupy until He comes, if the church will be raptured away before him coming to step foot on the Mount of Olives? Jesus also said, "I will COME again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3). Plainly this shows that when Jesus comes he receives His people unto himself, but with your belief he receives His people 3 and a half years before He comes and sets foot on the Mount of Olives.

Hi Brother Joseph, I have taken three stabs at presenting what I understand from scripture. I believe you hold differing views. Fine. The center of our worship and ministry is striving to serve Christ in the here and now, not end times. As I said in another thread, I believe my ticket has been punched. Van

 

[Calypsis4]

Brother Revmwc,

Also, if the rapture is separate from the "coming" of Christ to earth, why in the "rapture" passage does Paul call the catching up of believers as "the COMING of the Lord" (1 Thess 4:15) This proves Christ's coming and the rapture are one in the same event as they are both referred to as the "COMING of the Lord"..

No, friend, they are not one and the same....unless you can figure out how it is possible that Christ comes during a time of peace and safety and also at a time of war, bloodshed and chaos.

The Bible teaches both ..........so.........you can't have it both ways at the same time. He cannot be coming at a time when mankind is celebrating peace and safety while at the same time mankind is on the edge of being wiped out by warfare and the worst chaos the world has ever seen.

The Old Testament believers were confronted by the same thing: the prophets prophesied the coming of the Lord.......as a coming King who would be loved and accepted but also as a suffering servant who would be rejected by His own people. Which one was correct? Answer: Both. He fulfilled both starting with his first advent as the suffering One and then later He will come as the King in judgment who will sit on the throne of David.

Best wishes.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

No, friend, they are not one and the same....unless you can figure out how it is possible that Christ comes during a time of peace and safety and also at a time of war, bloodshed and chaos.

The Bible teaches both ..........so.........you can't have it both ways at the same time.

Best wishes.

Hi Calypsis,

#1 Can you give me any historical quote from anyone who held to your position of the rapture occurring before the antichrist and before Christ comes in power and glory prior to 1800? No, I bet you can't. Why? This teaching is a "new doctrine" (thus a false doctrine) of comparatively modern origin, dating from around 1830. Names associated with what was then a new teaching include Irving, McDonald, and Darby.

Looking on down through the centuries, there are certain names that stand out in Christian history: John Wyclif John Huss, Martin Luther, William Tyndale, John Foxe, John Calvin, Isaac Newton, Johh Wesley, NONE of these men believed the church would be taken out before the appearance of the antichrist. But if what you are contending is true , all of Christianity and all these great men were all wrong and nobody got it write until the 1800's?

Also, I noticed you quoted no scripture support your doctrinal stance even though in post # 1 of the OP I challenged and laid out for posters to only reply if they can support their contentions with scripture, thus all we have is your opinion.

So as to not make my post too long, in my next post I will provide you a scriptural argument proving that the teaching the church would not remain in the world until THE END is false.



Finally,

 

[BrotherJoseph]

No, friend, they are not one and the same....unless you can figure out how it is possible that Christ comes during a time of peace and safety and also at a time of war, bloodshed and chaos.
The Bible teaches both ..........so.........you can't have it both ways at the same time. He cannot be coming at a time when mankind is celebrating peace and safety while at the same time mankind is on the edge of being wiped out by warfare and the worst chaos the world has ever seen.
..

Hi again Calypsis,

Please explain this passage in relation to your two stage theory. (I will offer my take on it after the quote). We read , "Let both grow together until the harvest and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather together first the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn" (Matthew 13:24-30) and 40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."" (Matthew 13:40-43).

Jesus said that "BOTH" would grow "TOGETHER" until the "END OF THE WORLD"- and then would be the harvest, producing the great separation. This is the Bible teaching. But the two stage theory rapture position, to be consistent, would have to say that BOTH will NOT grow together in the field until the end of the world, for they teach the wheat will be harvested sooner, being separated BEFORE the end. Am I too believe what the two stage theory proports or my Bible?

 

[Calypsis4]

BrotherJoseph, Hi Calypsis,

#1 Can you give me any historical quote from anyone who held to your position of the rapture occurring before the antichrist and before Christ comes in power and glory prior to 1800? No, I bet you can't.

Yes, I can. I've done that very thing right here on B.B. ...last year. So have others. Try a search engine with 'The Church fathers on the rapture' for starters.

Let me help you get started: http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

Why? This teaching is a "new doctrine" (thus a false doctrine) of comparatively modern origin, dating from around 1830. Names associated with what was then a new teaching include Irving, McDonald, and Darby.

No it is not. you swallowed the falsehood that Irving, McDonald, etc. started it. Just read carefully what I posted above and you will see the depth of the error you have accepted.

Looking on down through the centuries, there are certain names that stand out in Christian history: John Wyclif John Huss, Martin Luther, William Tyndale, John Foxe, John Calvin, Isaac Newton, Johh Wesley, NONE of these men believed the church would be taken out before the appearance of the antichrist. Per you, all of Christianity and all these great men were all off base until the 1800's.

Your timing is off, just like your position. IT is not MEN we look to for right doctrine, in the final analysis it must be the Word of God.

Also, I noticed you quoted no scripture support your doctrinal stance even though in post # 1 of the OP I challenged and laid out for posters to only reply if they can support their contentions with scripture, thus all we have is your opinion.

Wink No problem. Luke 21:35-36.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That is the pre-tribulation rapture as described by our Lord who was talking about the tribulation and how it would become a snare to the whole earth...including 'Christians' who didn't live for Him nor believe His words about the end of the world.

So as to not make my post too long, in my next post I will provide you a scriptural argument proving that the teaching the church would not remain in the world until THE END is false.

Then you would not be reading the Bible correctly.

Nonetheless, I wish you well.

 

[Calypsis4]

Hi again Calypsis,

Please explain this passage in relation to your two stage theory. (I will offer my take on it after the quote). We read , "Let both grow together until the harvest and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather together first the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn" (Matthew 13:24-30) and 40 "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."" (Matthew 13:40-43).

Jesus said that "BOTH" would grow "TOGETHER" until the "END OF THE WORLD"- and then would be the harvest, producing the great separation. This is the Bible teaching. But the two stage theory rapture position, to be consistent, would have to say that BOTH will NOT grow together in the field until the end of the world, for they teach the wheat will be harvested sooner, being separated BEFORE the end. Am I too believe what the two stage theory proports or my Bible?

But you did not answer my original question as to how it is that Christ could come during a time when mankind is celebrating peace and safety' (I Thess.5:2-4) while at the same time the world is in utter chaos, destruction and things are so bloody and dangerous that the Lord has to shorten the days for the very elects sake? (Mark 13:20) You didn't bother covering that issue. Why? Secondly, you made no comment about the fact that the prophets prophesied the coming of the Lord in which He was to come as a King who would be popularly received and sit upon the throne of David....but also a suffering servant who would be utterly rejected by His own people.How could those two events happen at the same time? The fact is....they DIDN'T. The secret being that the prophecy was to be fulfilled IN TWO STAGES? (hint, hint, hint.)

So why did you avoid those important hints about what is to come in our (perhaps) near future?

Best wishes. See you on the way up!

 

[Alcott]

Yeah. Wells Fargo and Butterfield.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Wink No problem. Luke 21:35-36.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That is the pre-tribulation rapture as described by our Lord who was talking about the tribulation and how it would become a snare to the whole earth...including 'Christians' who didn't live for Him nor believe His words about the end of the world.

Hi again Calypsis4,

Regarding the verses you gave above to support church "pre-tribulation rapture", with what is the word "escape" connected? Is it a escape from a period of time- a dispensational great tribulation during the last seven years of this age? It does not say so. A look at the context shows the reference is to "THAT DAY", the time believers will be gathered to meet the Lord in the air and destruction shall fall upon the world. Jesus promised that those who are prayerfully watching and not overcharged with eating and drinking will escape the description of THAT DAY. The same basic message is presented by Paul, "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.2 For yourselves know perfectly that the DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that THAT DAY should overtake you as a thief.5 You are all the children of light... awe are not of the night...6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch... 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" ( 1 Thess 5:1-9) In "THAT DAY", it will bring sudden destruction" upon unbelievers, and "they shall not escape" Christians, however will escape. They are not appointed to wrath. They will be caught up to the Lord in the clouds while destruction falls upon the face of the earth.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Yes, I can. I've done that very thing right here on B.B. ...last year. So have others. Try a search engine with 'The Church fathers on the rapture' for starters.
Let me help you get started: http://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/ No it is not. you swallowed the falsehood that Irving, McDonald, etc. started it. Just read carefully what I posted above and you will see the depth of the error you have accepted.

Thank you for the citation/source, however I would not rely on the writings of the early church fathers to prove the historical position of a doctrine, otherwise we would have to conclude things such as the doctrine of baptismal regeneration were the truth. Can you provide any sources from the time of the reformation forward to before 1800?

Also, granted there were a few quotes, even the author of the article admits, "Although there are not a great number of writings on the end times from the early centuries of the church..." He only provided a couple of quotes. I do find it funny however the same link you provided to prove your position, someone posted a follow up on the same URL many more quotes from early church fathers supporting my position there would be no pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Here they are again so those on BaptistBoard can review them

Cyprian (200-258): “The day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of the Antichrist to draw near, so that WE must all stand prepared for the battle…” (Epistle, 55, 1).

Victorinus (240-303): “…the times of Antichrist, when all shall be injured” (Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John, VI, 5).

Lactantius (240-330): “And power will be given him [Antichrist] to desolate the whole earth for forty-two months….When these things shall so happen, then the righteous and the followers of truth shall separate themselves from the wicked, and flee into solitudes” (Divine Institutes, VII, 17).

Athanasius (293-373): “…they have not spared Thy servants, but are preparing the way for Antichrist” (History of the Arians, VIII, 79).

Ephraim the Syrian (306-373): “Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear…” (Sermo Asceticus, I).

Pseudo-Ephraem (4th century?): “…there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [Antichrist]…” (On the Last Times, the Antichrist etc., 2).

Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386): “The Church declares to thee the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive…it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself ready beforehand” (Catechetical Lectures, 15, 9).

Jerome (340-420): “I told you that Christ would not come unless Antichrist had come BEFORE” (Epistle 21).

Chrysostom (345-407): “…the time of Antichrist…will be a sign of the coming of Christ…” (Homilies on First Thessalonians, 9).

Augustine (354-430): “But he who reads this passage [Daniel 12], EVEN HALF ASLEEP, cannot fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, though for a short time, assail the CHURCH…” (The City of God, XX, 23)

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Hi again Calypsis,
Please explain this passage in relation to your two stage theory... (Matthew 13:40-43).Jesus said that "BOTH" would grow "TOGETHER" until the "END OF THE WORLD"- and then would be the harvest, producing the great separation. This is the Bible teaching. But the two stage theory rapture position, to be consistent, would have to say that BOTH will NOT grow together in the field until the end of the world, for they teach the wheat will be harvested sooner, being separated BEFORE the end. Am I too believe what the two stage theory proports or my Bible?

Calypsis,

As I responded to your verse of Luke 21:36 that you used to support a pre-tribulation rapture of the church, do you care to please respond to the passage I previously posted ( i.e. Matthew 13:40-43) above for you that never received a reply to go against this teaching? I look forward to a reply.

 

[beameup]

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:13-14