Willing to Believe: Pelagius

[swaimj]

OK, I looked up Ez 18:20. I think the solution is found in Ez 18:32. There, God's command to all of the people whether good or bad is "Repent".

Paul makes a similar argument in Romans chapter 2 and I suspect that this Ez passage is the background for it. (Again, I'm not looking at my bible but working off my memory). Paul says that the one who does righteous will be granted eternal life, but the one who does unrighteously will be judged. If there is "none righteous, no not one" as Paul says, then how can some be judged righteous and granted eternal life? The answer is in the previous context in Romans 1. There, Paul says all are guilty of sin and that we should not sit in judgement on pagan unbelievers. Since we are guilty of the same sins as them, we must repent.

 

[webdog]

He is speaking of being a sinner at conception which precedes birth. If he was a sinner at conception then he was a sinner when he became an infant, thus you have infant guilt.

Well, if they are guilty, the only means of salvation is faith in Christ. Please tell my how a zygote has faith in Christ.

The only two options are they are guilty and need faith, and if they cannot have faith, they are damned. That is augustinian original sin, and the reason for infant baptism.

The other option is they are not guilty (like Abimilech was when he took Sarah as his wife).

 

[swaimj]

Many Christians including many calvinists hold that babies are specially protected by God's grace when they die before they can know their right hand from their left; infant baptism not needed.

 

[skypair]

Many Christians including many calvinists hold that babies are specially protected by God's grace when they die before they can know their right hand from their left; infant baptism not needed.

Now you REALLY distance yourself from scripture!! And why??? So you can support some extra-biblical belief???

You're right -- infant baptism is NOT required except by Catholicism and Calvin who never disavowed it. Infants are INNOCENT!

skypair

 

[webdog]

Many Christians including many calvinists hold that babies are specially protected by God's grace when they die before they can know their right hand from their left; infant baptism not needed.

There is no special dispensation in salvation. This becomes very dangerous ground you are treading. If you are guilty, faith in Christ is required...no exceptions.

 

[swaimj]

Then how did David express confidence that he would see his deceased infant again?

 

[webdog]

Then how did David express confidence that he would see his deceased infant again?

His deceased infant was not guilty, as are all infants. Any other scenario and his son is burning in Hell today.

 

[swaimj]

His deceased infant was not guilty, as are all infants.

Webdog, you are not dealing with the verse that says "in sin did my mother conceive me" that I mentioned earlier. This verse refutes your position. Furthermore, Paul says in Romans "For as by one man sin entered the world and death by sin; so death came upon all men for that all have sinned". If David's baby died, then that baby was a sinner. Being a sinner is the reason that death comes upon people at all. If the baby was not a sinner he would still be living today. Yet David said he would see the child again, therefore the child either went to heaven or David is in hell---NOT!

 

[skypair]

OK, I looked up Ez 18:20. I think the solution is found in Ez 18:32. There, God's command to all of the people whether good or bad is "Repent".

No, that is not the purpose of the discourse. The purpose of the discourse is in Ezek 18:2-3 "What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying, 'The fathers have eated sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge?' As I live, saith the Lord, ye shall not have occassion to use this proverb anymore in Israel."

The saying meant that the children bore the father's sins. God said it was incorrect. "The soul that sinneth, it shall surely die. But if a man be just... kept my judgments to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live,..." Thus, if a man has no sin of his own, he is JUSTIFIED before God. That can never happen -- we all will be found lacking -- but NOT on account of "inherited" sin guilt from Adam.

skypair

 

[skypair]

If David's baby died, then that baby was a sinner. Being a sinner is the reason that death comes upon people at all. If the baby was not a sinner he would still be living today. Yet David said he would see the child again, therefore the child either went to heaven or David is in hell---NOT!

Tell that to Jesus. John 9:2-3 (another passage you were too busy to consider) -- "And His disciples asked, 'Master, who did sin, this man or his parents, that this man was BORN blind?' And Jesus answered, 'Neither...'"

But you would have it that Daivd's son was born a sinner deserving of death??

Perhaps now would be a good time to reconsider your theology.

skypair

 

[webdog]

Webdog, you are not dealing with the verse that says "in sin did my mother conceive me" that I mentioned earlier. This verse refutes your position. Furthermore, Paul says in Romans "For as by one man sin entered the world and death by sin; so death came upon all men for that all have sinned". If David's baby died, then that baby was a sinner. Being a sinner is the reason that death comes upon people at all. If the baby was not a sinner he would still be living today. Yet David said he would see the child again, therefore the child either went to heaven or David is in hell---NOT!

I'm sorry, but I just don't see that as a proof text supporting your position. That is poetic liturgy, first of all, and can mean that David was conceived by a sinful act of his mother (adultery, prostitution, etc.) or in our fallen world (in sin) concevied.

 

[swaimj]

...can mean that David was conceived by a sinful act of his mother (adultery, prostitution, etc.) or in our fallen world (in sin) concevied.

The first option cannot be true because we know that David's father was Jesse. The second is unreasonable given your argument. The world is sinful and fallen why? It is fallen because of Adam's sin, the same reason that man is fallen and is born in sin. Paul argues for both of these in Romans. Since neither of these is a viable option, we are back to the interpretation I have given. Webdog, I think you are grasping at straws.

 

[webdog]

The first option cannot be true because we know that David's father was Jesse. The second is unreasonable given your argument. The world is sinful and fallen why? It is fallen because of Adam's sin, the same reason that man is fallen and is born in sin. Paul argues for both of these in Romans. Since neither of these is a viable option, we are back to the interpretation I have given. Webdog, I think you are grasping at straws.

It is a sinful world because of Adam's sin...but we are not sinners because of Adam's sin, we are sinners because of our sin else there is no personal accountability. The reprobate don't go to hell for the sin of Adam but their sin. Romans 6 - 7 shows the personal responsibility of sin, not Adam's sin imputed to us.

 

[swaimj]

Thanks for the exchange, Webdog. I think I'm done with this discussion.

 

[skypair]

It is a sinful world because of Adam's sin...but we are not sinners because of Adam's sin, we are sinners because of our sin else there is no personal accountability. The reprobate don't go to hell for the sin of Adam but their sin. Romans 6 - 7 shows the personal responsibility of sin, not Adam's sin imputed to us.

Thanks, web -- but we're apparently run into a "hardened heart." :tear: Not lost, BTW, just hardened in his own opinion.

skypair

 

[Outsider]

skypair,
Here is something to consider:

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

This is in Adam's own likeness and image after the fall. What was Adam's image and likeness. Do you think it may go a little farther than physical characteristics??

Here is part of an article I wrote some time ago:

"All but 8 souls, were destroyed in the flood (1 Peter 3:20). Noah had a direct blood line with all offspring. His wife and his 3 daughter in laws would all die (obviously), and all children that were born after the flood had to come from his 3 sons. So, everyone is born in Noah's blood line. When we look at Adam, the Bible says that while he was in the garden, he and Eve were both naked and not ashamed (Gen 2:25). After the transgression, the Bible says their eyes were open and they knew they were naked and they sowed fig leaves (Gen 3:7). God asked them how they knew they were naked (Gen 3:11)? After they were removed from the garden, Adam and Eve had children. The one we need to focus on is Seth. The Bible teaches that Seth was begat by Adam, after his own image, in his own likeness (Gen 5:3). This was in his likeness and image after the fall. When we see the blood line from Adam to Noah, it goes through Seth (Gen 5:3-32). This means, we all were born with the original sin of Adam, in his fallen state, also known as being born in sin. "

A two year old child knows how to lie. Even if it is sheltered and has never been lied to or never taught how to lie. That is inherited. Christ, born of the virgin Mary, didn't have this "inherited gene". When He was two years old, He didn't tell a lie. He was perfect.

Now Adam got something when he ate of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil. Most people only focus on what he lost. He gained something too. He gained the "Knowledge of good and evil". This is why God drove them from the garden.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

My question to you (And anyone else) is this, what happens to a man who comes to know good and evil? I am not saying he kills, cheats, tells a lie or knowingly sins in any way. He just simply comes to know good and evil. Would he not be driven from the garden also? Adam received something when he sinned and he passed it on to everyone in his blood line.
I do support the doctrine of original sin. That meaning we are all born with it and when we come to the knowledge of good and evil, we are held accountable for it. No way to avoid it.
The true Aminian view is that you are born as a blank sheet of paper. Not good or bad. In other words, you have the power to live the perfect life (Just with the common understanding that none do). The doctrine of original sin teaches that you do not have that power, you have it at birth. The only way to avoid it is to be born of a virgin.

 

[Outsider]

webdog,

The reprobate don't go to hell for the sin of Adam but their sin.

People die and go to hell because they fail to believe. Christ paid for all sin. Adam's, mine, yours and even those who do not repent. Christ paid for it all.
If someone goes to hell, its not because of what they done. It is for what they failed to do. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, not all believe and trust in Christ Jesus.

 

[webdog]

webdog,



People die and go to hell because they fail to believe. Christ paid for all sin. Adam's, mine, yours and even those who do not repent. Christ paid for it all.
If someone goes to hell, its not because of what they done. It is for what they failed to do. We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God, not all believe and trust in Christ Jesus.

Yes, but failing to believe is a sin.

 

[Outsider]

I agree with you webdog, John 16:9 clearly tells us that not believing is a sin.
The debate, as I have seen it, is or was the original sin of Adam. Of which, Me, you and everyone else who was ever born was born with and stand guilty of it. We were born with it. No escape.

If Jacobus Arminius was right, then it does contradict the work and the words of Christ.
If a child is born sinless and dies moments after being delivered then that child never needed Christ. On his own, he will make it to heaven, on his own merit.
Christ said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by Me"
Christ is the only way to heaven. He is the only life.

With the doctrine of original sin, that same child needs Christ to go to heaven. What Christ done on the cross, paid the price for that child. It goes to heaven, not because it never willingly sinned, but because Christ took its sin (Original sin of Adam) and nailed it to the cross.
Christ truly is the ONLY way. Anyother way leads only to destruction.

 

[skypair]

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

This is in Adam's own likeness and image after the fall. What was Adam's image and likeness. Do you think it may go a little farther than physical characteristics??

One opinon I have heard from the best of scholars (and I tend to believe it) is that Adam and Eve were "blood poisoned" by the fruit. That is not sin guilt but physical alteration affecting the whole body (much as the "tree of life" would have been in the reverse situation). Rom 8:9 calls it becoming "subject to vanity ... in hope." Obviously it had something to do with the eyes, right?

In fact, we see the eyes play out after the fall in that the "sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were to be desired... and took of them as many as they would." This was transgression of the second "law" of the Garden -- "a man shall leave father and mother and cleave to his [ONE] wife." Noah and family were the only ones monogamous and "pure."

And they learned the knowledge of evil (they already knew good) after eating the fruit.

Here is part of an article I wrote some time ago:

"All but 8 souls, were destroyed in the flood (1 Peter 3:20). Noah had a direct blood line with all offspring. His wife and his 3 daughter in laws would all die (obviously), and all children that were born after the flood had to come from his 3 sons. So, everyone is born in Noah's blood line. When we look at Adam, the Bible says that while he was in the garden, he and Eve were both naked and not ashamed (Gen 2:25). After the transgression, the Bible says their eyes were open and they knew they were naked and they sowed fig leaves (Gen 3:7). God asked them how they knew they were naked (Gen 3:11)? After they were removed from the garden, Adam and Eve had children. The one we need to focus on is Seth. The Bible teaches that Seth was begat by Adam, after his own image, in his own likeness (Gen 5:3). This was in his likeness and image after the fall. When we see the blood line from Adam to Noah, it goes through Seth (Gen 5:3-32). This means, we all were born with the original sin of Adam, in his fallen state, also known as being born in sin. "

You are jumping to conclusions. Dr Rogers used to rightly say that Adam was created in God's image and, after the fall, we are all created in Adam's image" -- that much is true. But you mention "bloodline." Yes, same "blood-sickness" flowed in every ancestor of Adam except Christ.

What does the Bible say cannot inherit the kingdom of God? "Flesh and BLOOD." When Thomas doubted and put his hand in Jesus side and hands, was there blood? No. But if someone stuck their hand into your open wound, what would happen? And where had Jesus been already? To the kingdom of God at His resurrection, right? Wasn't Jesus, then, only flesh and bone? Yes, apparently so.

A two year old child knows how to lie.

Knows evil, yes. Explaining where it comes from is more difficult. First off, it has to develop a mind -- enough knowledge to lie. It doesn't lie at one month, does it? It has to know how to communicate, a process wherein it may have learned to lie.

There's another source, if you will -- survival instinct. It learns to do what it needs to escape pain, no? It knows you will slap it's hand unless it is innocent, right? But that is not even sin yet because it doesn't even know lying is wrong yet. And this is something that reveals sin to you throughout your life -- only it is God that slaps your hand! raying:

He gained the "Knowledge of good and evil". This is why God drove them from the garden.

Technically, they were driven out so they couldn't partake of eternal life -- the "tree of life."

My question to you (And anyone else) is this, what happens to a man who comes to know good and evil?

You posed the question just right there -- he becomes "accountable." If what you mean by "original sin" is a proclivity toward sin, to get our way by self-motion, I agree. If you say this is sin guilt or that we are born sinners (in the way some people are said to be "born golfers," for instance), I disagree. It makes no sense that, just because a person is born with 2 arms, 2 legs, and a head that he is a natural anything until he matures and develops such.

The true Aminian view is that you are born as a blank sheet of paper. Not good or bad. In other words, you have the power to live the perfect life (Just with the common understanding that none do). The doctrine of original sin teaches that you do not have that power, you have it at birth. The only way to avoid it is to be born of a virgin.

Actually, the Pelagians believed in "tabla raza." Arminians agreed on the issue of total depravity, I believe. Arminians also believed you could yo-yo in and out of salvation by human choice.

skypair