Willing to Believe: Pelagius

[skypair]

If a child is born sinless and dies moments after being delivered then that child never needed Christ. On his own, he will make it to heaven, on his own merit.

Two things wrong there: 1) He has no merit - he is INNOCENT. God judges such "just" according to innocence is why they go to heaven. 2) He still needs Christ. These infants will be resurrected with the "just" postrib into the kingdom of Christ, there to receive Him as Savior.

Hence, thr truth of "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by Me"

Christ is the only way to heaven. He is the only life.

Only way to heaven BODILY. The OT saints are in heaven in spirit and soul. We who came to Christ will go there in body as well at the rapture. The OT saints and infants must receive bodies in the "resurrection of the just" to earth.

I'm sure you will have questions if you care to investigate this line of theology. Blast away! :laugh:

skypair

 

[Outsider]

skypair,
I appreciate what you have to say, as I do everyone else also.
I am aware of the Pelagian view as I was once called one myself. It is important for you to know that I do not consider myself a calvinist either, although I do favor more calvinistic beliefs.
The problem that I found with Pelagian and Aminians is the root of their salvation is them. No matter how you slice it, they in some form or fashion, say they did it and deserve it. Maybe not all of it, but at least a portion.
Though I do not dismiss our responsibilities, we deserve no credit. Salvation is of the Lord. It is for His glory and honor, not ours.
In order to make either theology completely work, especially the Pelagian, one finds themselves using incomplete scripture or only using half of the truth.
For example:

And they learned the knowledge of evil (they already knew good) after eating the fruit.

Technically, they were driven out so they couldn't partake of eternal life -- the "tree of life."

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The scripture says it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I leave it at that. The Bible also says that they were driven from the garden because they came to know good and evil AND He didn't want them to eat of the tree of life.
Again, I do not want to ignore either fact. To do so, may lead us to error.

My main two reasons for not accepting this doctrine completely is as follows:
1. It gives man credit (Partial or full pending on the theology you have adopted).
2. It provides another way to life without the need for Christ.

1) He has no merit - he is INNOCENT. God judges such "just" according to innocence is why they go to heaven.

I simply look at this completely different. I find no scripture to support that man at anytime is innocent and deserving of eternal life. Life is only found in Christ and the what He done for us.

When I read John chapter 11, I see a wonderful illustration of how we are born spiritually. When Christ raised Lazarus from the dead. Lazarus played no part in this resurrection. Only after being made alive by Christ, he obeyed Christ and came forth. God received all the glory for this miracle and Lazarus was the beneficiary.

The hardest thing for any person to admit is that we are not in control. We feel that we are the difference. When God saved my soul, I found out that I was not the difference. I done all I could do, all I knew to do and it simply wasn't enough. I was at the mercy of an all Powerful, Loving, Merciful God. He showed mercy on me. It was His decision. I was saved by grace through faith, and that not of myself, it was the gift of God. Not of works lest I should boast. I became His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

I respect your view.

 

[The Archangel]

These infants will be resurrected with the "just" postrib into the kingdom of Christ, there to receive Him as Savior.

Is this to say that there is a postmortem opportunity to be saved????

The Archangel

 

[skypair]

Is this to say that there is a postmortem opportunity to be saved????

Yes. Is it your position that Christ is NOT the Way? Or that every deceased fetus/infant goes to hell? Or is there some other "scheme" for infant salvation that you can document with scripture? Any or all responses are invited. :type:

skypair

 

[skypair]

The problem that I found with Pelagian and Aminians is the root of their salvation is them.

That is the "trash talk" anyway. OK, which of these things do you believe Arminians/Pelagians did to save themselves: 1) died on the cross? 2) "worked for" their own salvation? 3) prayed the so-called "sinner's prayer? 4) walked some "aisle?" 5) whatever blasphemy you choose.

Listen, Outsider, marriage or COVENANT (as in NEW covenant) require TWO parties. The last and ONLY unconditional covenant I know of is the Abrahamic. What about you? Tell me what other covenant doesn't involve our cooperation.

Though I do not dismiss our responsibilities,...

Oh, but you DO!

In order to make either theology completely work, especially the Pelagian, one finds themselves using incomplete scripture or only using half of the truth.

Funny but from my side -- YOU have the "half-truth." From reading Sproul's book, Willing to Believe, I believe I may be "semi-Pelagian." We'll visit that in the next chapter. But Calvinism TOTALLY ascribes the work to US and not to Christ!!!

The scripture says it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I leave it at that.

Did Adam know evil?? Did Adam know good? Sure he knew good! No, he didn't know evil.

My main two reasons for not accepting this doctrine completely is as follows:
1. It gives man credit (Partial or full pending on the theology you have adopted).

Is the "new covenant" bilateral or unilateral?

2. It provides another way to life without the need for Christ.

Heavens man!! It is ELECTION that provides "another way!"

I simply look at this completely different. I find no scripture to support that man at anytime is innocent and deserving of eternal life.

Heaven help the aborted fetuses!!! Heaven help YOU if your mother if your mother believed in "women's right!"

When I read John chapter 11, I see a wonderful illustration of how we are born spiritually. When Christ raised Lazarus from the dead. Lazarus played no part in this resurrection. Only after being made alive by Christ, he obeyed Christ and came forth.

WHAT!!!??? Lazarus was DEAD! Are you "DEAD?" NO! This is an inappropiate illustration!! How does a DEAD man OBEY anything??? Lazarus is an illustration of the resurrection of the OT saints. Again you have been deceived by those who know NOTHING about salvation and who would "make merchandise" of you for their own "profit!" We will meet in heaven and have a good cry about this. :tear:

The hardest thing for any person to admit is that we are not in control.

Nonsense! [Profanity edited out.] You better Choose or you are DEAD!!!

We feel that we are the difference. When God saved my soul, I found out that I was not the difference. I done all I could do, all I knew to do and it simply wasn't enough. I was at the mercy of an all Powerful, Loving, Merciful God. He showed mercy on me. It was His decision. I was saved by grace through faith, and that not of myself, it was the gift of God. Not of works lest I should boast. I became His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

You better be the "difference" or there is no relationship. God is your "passive" Father only in your first birth. If you don't choose Him as "Father," forget your "rebirth."

skypair

I respect your view.[/quote]

 

[Outsider]

skypair,

I am not trying to change you nor do I want to draw this out into a back and forth debate. I do respect your view on the subject. Like I said, I was there myself. The message I preach is that everyman is lost needing a Savior. I never dismiss man's responsibilty, even if you think I do. If a man never chooses to follow Christ, he will not be saved. If we embrace the great works of Christ, rather than our own, we are much better off.

No doubt, you study hard. I am excited that you do. We need good Christians studying the Word more. By what I see from some of your many posts, you appear to have it all figured out. Always with an answer and apparently never wrong. No doubt that is from the great work that you do.

I also love to study the Word. I must not be as advanced as you are but I understand that I am what I am by the grace of God. His grace is sufficient for me.
As I have said many times, I chose Christ! I willingly chose Christ! But more than that, I am so thankful that God chose me!!:godisgood:

I love preaching the gospel. I preach Christ! I preach that one must repent. They must CHOOSE to follow Christ and they must be born again. And when I pray, I thank God for what He done for me. I don't tell Him how I deserved it, I thank Him for the free gift He gave to an undeserving reprobate like me.

I do not claim to be a 5 point calvinist, but I do agree with some of Calvin's views. But every church service I have attended, Bible study I have been apart of, or even watching a preacher on TV, No matter how much of a Pelagian or Arminian they may be, when they humble themselves in prayer, they pray as a Calvinist. Not choosing but asking. Not telling but confessing. Not telling what wonderful things they did but begging for a blessing. If you are honest with me, you will admit that you do to. But somehow, when not in prayer, that entire doctrine is heresy??? Go figure...

I love you brother, may God bless you in all that you do. I look forward to other discussions. I love to study and discuss the Word of God.

 

[The Archangel]

Is this to say that there is a postmortem opportunity to be saved????

The Archangel

Yes. Is it your position that Christ is NOT the Way? Or that every deceased fetus/infant goes to hell? Or is there some other "scheme" for infant salvation that you can document with scripture? Any or all responses are invited. :type:

skypair

This is heresy, pure and simple. There is no such thing as a postmortem opportunity to believe.

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment

Surely Christ is the only way to salvation, but there are no second chances for salvation. All you get is this life, once death takes you, that is it.
Also, there is very little, if anything, said about infant salvation in the scripture. Certainly it never says or alludes to an opportunity for salvation after death.

To hold to an after death opportunity for salvation is simply heresy and incorrect theology.

Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Skypair,

You wrote:

PURE BS! You better Choose or you are DEAD!!!

This is absolutely uncalled for. You ought to be ashamed of yourself in addressing a brother using an allusion to profanity. You can disagree with his position, but how dare you "cuss" his position.


This behavior and language has no place among brothers or on this message board. You ought to be more concerned about representing Christ and using this profane phrase is not the way to do that!

I have reported your post (#45) and I have reported you to Dr. Bob and DHK. Please make every effort to apologize to Outsider and the rest of us for your language. More importantly, please take every opportunity to repent before God for this misrepresentation of His character, so that you and He are right.


Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Outsider]

There are two views to every thing. Most think that those two views are the right way and the wrong way. I do not disagree, that is the case sometimes.
If I look at a coffee cup and describe what I see and someone else looks at the same cup but from another position, he/she will ultimately describe the cup differently. Not that either of us is wrong, but from our current position, we are unable to see what the other does.
We become, in the wrong, when we call out the other and tell them that they are blind, not telling the truth, etc...
Now, I do agree that we must becareful when doing this. We are not to accept everything we hear. As I have said before, I preach Christ crucified and resurrected. Him being the way, the truth and the life. No other way will do. I am sure that we all agree on that.

As I mentioned earlier, there are two views. We have man's view and the heavenly view.
When I awoke this morning, I awake to the unknown. I do not know what this day holds for me. I have many choices to make. I have already made some of them and if I live to see the night, I will make more choices. I am held responsible for every choice I make. Not knowing the outcome of anything, I willingly choose the direction I go.
The heavenly view is much different. God is the Alpha and Omega. Many may disagree with my theological position, but what I find in scripture, God knows all things. Even before they happen. So with the choices I make, God is in control and is not shocked by any choice I make. I.E. He already knows.

When a brother or sister takes the position of a Calvinistic view, they may be speaking from that position. I can only speak for myself. I have come to the understanding that God knew me long before I knew Him. God knows all my choices long before I chose them.

We may differ in our positions, but I love you all the same and I do respect your view.

 

[skypair]

This is heresy, pure and simple. There is no such thing as a postmortem opportunity to believe.

"It is given unto man once to die and then the judgment." Right? What MUST the judgment be for infants? Just or unjust? And who is it that are resurrected into the MK? The "JUST." And Who is the only "Way?" Jesus! And when will the "just" first have opportunity to know Jesus? Well, I think you get the picture. This has 1) never been a consideration for you and 2) Calvinism doesn't offer this. So apparently it is "to hell with you" for infants.

Surely Christ is the only way to salvation, but there are no second chances for salvation.

Yes, AND there is ALWAYS a FIRST CHANCE!!!

Certainly it never says or alludes to an opportunity for salvation after death.

Then 1) you have not considered Isa 49:20-23 and 2) you believe ALL deceased infants go to hell. If you are "comfortable with that," I pity your "works" at the Bema!

But just to be clear, state your "allocation" of deceased infants?

skypair

 

[skypair]

This is absolutely uncalled for. You ought to be ashamed of yourself in addressing a brother using an allusion to profanity. You can disagree with his position, but how dare you "cuss" his position.

What about Paul's accusation of "Thou fool" in 1Cor 15:36? Is that not the same as "raca" that Jesus said puts men in danger of counsel (Mt 5:22). Same thing. Don't go threatening me, sir.

I have reported your post (#45) and I have reported you to Dr. Bob and DHK. Please make every effort to apologize to Outsider and the rest of us for your language. More importantly, please take every opportunity to repent before God for this misrepresentation of His character, so that you and He are right.

My dear Aa -- you condemn infants to hell and I caution Calvinists. There is no comparison.

And BS -- "Brown Shirts." Remember them? They enforced Hitler's dogma on all Germany. Go figure!

skypair

 

[skypair]

There are two views to every thing.

That is the way some will justify themselves, yes. Say there are 2 "right" ways to look at it. Yeah, that's Satan's way too! So if one condemns infants to hell and the other says they are innocent and "of such is the kingdom of God" and " the son shall in no wise bear the iniquity of the father," do you detect 2 rights views????

As I have said before, I preach Christ crucified and resurrected. Him being the way, the truth and the life. No other way will do. I am sure that we all agree on that.

Yes, I accept all of that. So what about those who say all this but only "election" counts?

We may differ in our positions, but I love you all the same and I do respect your view.

And I as well! Love is wishing the best even for you enemy!! And I strive, as Paul, hoping and praying that my Calvinist brethren have DONE something (believed effectually) unto salvation.

My main concern is that they have said to themselves "God requires NOTHING of me." Salvation is "activated" by OBEDIENCE to the gospel! Many, MANY have derogated the "sinner's prayer!" Many have said, "This is dictating to God what He must do" rather than Him telling us what WE must do. Have any of them taken "marriage vows?" Do they realize that marriage requires an UP FRONT COMMITMENT? So what about their salvation?

I am mystified by them telling me what God is going to do in light of them doing NOTHING!

skypair

 

[MB]

That is the way some will justify themselves, yes. Say there are 2 "right" ways to look at it. Yeah, that's Satan's way too! So if one condemns infants to hell and the other says they are innocent and "of such is the kingdom of God" and " the son shall in no wise bear the iniquity of the father," do you detect 2 rights views????

Yes, I accept all of that. So what about those who say all this but only "election" counts?

And I as well! Love is wishing the best even for you enemy!! And I strive, as Paul, hoping and praying that my Calvinist brethren have DONE something (believed effectually) unto salvation.

My main concern is that they have said to themselves "God requires NOTHING of me." Salvation is "activated" by OBEDIENCE to the gospel! Many, MANY have derogated the "sinner's prayer!" Many have said, "This is dictating to God what He must do" rather than Him telling us what WE must do. Have any of them taken "marriage vows?" Do they realize that marriage requires an UP FRONT COMMITMENT? So what about their salvation?

I am mystified by them telling me what God is going to do in light of them doing NOTHING!

skypair

We all have to submit to the righteousness of Christ or we will die and go to hell. It's that simple.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
MB

 

[skypair]

We all have to submit to the righteousness of Christ or we will die and go to hell. It's that simple.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
MB

So is that a "vote" for infant condemnation?

skypair

 

[Outsider]

skypair,
I do not know who is saying infants that die are hell bound. It is the view of Hyper-Calvinism, but I have never eluded to that. I have stated my position on this, and if I am not mistaken, you agreed with me.

We (Me and you) must be careful. Self-Righteousness is always around. When a brother shares his view of the gospel, and we disagree with it, that doesn't mean we are right and they are wrong.
When I was born again, I thought I knew it all. I come to find out that wasn't the case. We are not born fully grown. Consider this:
1 Cor 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

Paul obviously knew more that those at Corinth and he chose not to tell them. Simply because they were not willingly able to accept it.
When I first heard of Calvinism in any form, I acted as you do. Like I said, I am not a true Calvinist, but some of the points that are made are good. It may be meat to some and milk to others, but to me, some of it is very good.

In a past sermon, I asked the question "In the past 5 years, have you changed any of your beliefs"? You would have been amazed at the number of people replied "None".
My response to this is; "If you haven't changed any of your views in the past 5 years, it means one of two things. 1. You know everything already. 2. You haven't grown in the Word in the past 5 years."
This doesn't mean we should start changing our own doctrine. But when we study scripture, we must do it with an open and willing mind. If we don't, we will always be stuck on milk. None of us know it all. You have something to offer me and I am interested in what you have to say. Maybe, just maybe, someone else has something to offer you. You may disagree with the theology as a whole, as I have, but it doesn't mean its all wrong either.

As for your remarks:

And BS -- "Brown Shirts." Remember them? They enforced Hitler's dogma on all Germany. Go figure!

Come on now brother. It doesn't bother me, but this is a public forum. A lot of people who like reading your posts are going to read this one also. If you say thats what it truly was, then ok. But if it meant something else, it is much better to admit it and move on than to try and cover it up.

Last thing. You have a couple of times mentioned a marriage.

Have any of them taken "marriage vows?" Do they realize that marriage requires an UP FRONT COMMITMENT? So what about their salvation?

Are you aware of the marriage custom in the time period Christ was here teaching and preaching? Just because we have a custom today does not mean it was the way it was back then. Christ used examples to teach. He used things they could relate to. If often spoke of Him being the groom and us the bride.
In the custom during that day, The man would go to the father and bargain for the his future wife. When they came to an agreement on the price the man had to pay, the man would pay the price. At that point, the marriage covenant was established. The bridegroom then went to his father's house and prepared a place for his new bride. The bride was to always be on watch for the groom because she did not know when he was returning. When he did return for her, he would come with his wedding party. His coming would be proceeded by a loud shout. Etc...
Does any of this sound familiar? What role did the bride play? Our custom of marriage is a little different. If we try to apply what Christ was saying with our customs today, we may be in error.

 

[Amy.G]

Are you aware of the marriage custom in the time period Christ was here teaching and preaching? Just because we have a custom today does not mean it was the way it was back then. Christ used examples to teach. He used things they could relate to. If often spoke of Him being the groom and us the bride.
In the custom during that day, The man would go to the father and bargain for the his future wife. When they came to an agreement on the price the man had to pay, the man would pay the price. At that point, the marriage covenant was established. The bridegroom then went to his father's house and prepared a place for his new bride. The bride was to always be on watch for the groom because she did not know when he was returning. When he did return for her, he would come with his wedding party. His coming would be proceeded by a loud shout. Etc...
Does any of this sound familiar? What role did the bride play? Our custom of marriage is a little different. If we try to apply what Christ was saying with our customs today, we may be in error.

I posted a similar question to skypair in another thread, but this is really cool.

The father of the groom chooses the bride.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The price for the bride is paid.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The groom prepares a place.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

The bride waits for the groom.
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

The groom comes for his bride.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.


Wow.

 

[Allan]

I posted a similar question to skypair in another thread, but this is really cool.

The father of the groom chooses the bride.
Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The price for the bride is paid.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The groom prepares a place.
Jhn 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

The bride waits for the groom.
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

The groom comes for his bride.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.


Wow.

I agree with both you and Outsider on the above, but ...

I will also state this - The bride could choose NOT to marry the person or choose TO follow through with the betrothal. Yes, they were arranged most often But not always. We must also remember that the fathers or other males of the family sought to find someone not only finacially benificial but someone their children would WANT marry as well. The bride was not forced to marry the person but she choose to marry the person who sought her and could even choose not to. SHe was not forced and could not be forced to marry any man she did not choose to (unless of course it was a ruthless king/tyrant). Many did mary some men they did not want to, but they choose to do it out of duty. Sad isn't it.

So yes, marriages were arranged but there was far more to it than just the arrangement but also the acceptance of and for the one to whom they were betrothed to. And though I don't agree with Sky's redition or explanation of it, I think this is more to what sky was refering to.

 

[Outsider]

Allan,
I do not disagree with you. I find in Genesis chapter 24 where father Abraham sent his servant to get his son a wife. The father of the bride did say this marriage would take place if his daughter (Rebekah) would agree.
That is the only time (That I have found) where the woman was asked. Nevertheless, she was asked and she had to agree.

I tend to view this custom more like this: We didn't take part in the negotiations. Christ went to the Father and they settled the matter. God told Christ what the price was and He paid it. He now is at His Father's house preparing a place for His bride.
Now our responsibility is to be looking for His coming. He is coming back to get His bride. Those that are not ready, will get left behind.

In the marriage custom in that day, the marriage was done when the Groom paid the price the Father requested. They were leagally married at that time. The ceramony or feast doesn't take place until the Groom returns.
The marriage has been arranged. Are we ready for His return? I truly believe that His bride will be ready and looking for His return.

Nobody will go that doesn't want to go. No one will go unless they have a great desire and are ready to go.

 

[Allan]

Allan,
I do not disagree with you. I find in Genesis chapter 24 where father Abraham sent his servant to get his son a wife. The father of the bride did say this marriage would take place if his daughter (Rebekah) would agree.
That is the only time (That I have found) where the woman was asked. Nevertheless, she was asked and she had to agree.

I tend to view this custom more like this: We didn't take part in the negotiations. Christ went to the Father and they settled the matter. God told Christ what the price was and He paid it. He now is at His Father's house preparing a place for His bride.
Now our responsibility is to be looking for His coming. He is coming back to get His bride. Those that are not ready, will get left behind.

In the marriage custom in that day, the marriage was done when the Groom paid the price the Father requested. They were leagally married at that time. The ceramony or feast doesn't take place until the Groom returns.
The marriage has been arranged. Are we ready for His return? I truly believe that His bride will be ready and looking for His return.

Nobody will go that doesn't want to go. No one will go unless they have a great desire and are ready to go.

No doubt, and agreed. What I was merely stating is that in order for any payment to be made that the marriage would take place, the bride must first concent.

BTW- with regard to the custom and seeking the daughters desire toward marriage. I was speaking not only from biblical aspects but also from a historical stand point as well. They were not forced to marry (unless by a tyranical king), but married who they choose to.