Wine & Alcohol part 37

I would say that's nothing to me, since I don't know what that stuff is.

No, you don't, or you would end your post there. Instead, you went on to a long paragraph; therefore you lied.

What are the precise figures on this, and your source thereof?

 

I believe my post said that I have no right to tell others whether to drink or not. I said it was wrong for me. As for comparing drinking and overeating, there is no nexus. You might as well compare drinking to the price of parakeets in China. You really need to reread the post. I spent an entire paragraph saying gluttony is a sin.

 

The "welches" of the day would have had leaven in it. Only a pure ALCOHOLIC wine would be free of yeast. You have it backwards.

 

The KEY in this verse is the big fat BUT in between Excess and BE.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

The semi-colon

A semi-colon consists of a comma with a dot above it:

[SIZE=+3];[/SIZE]
The semi-colon is often used to join together two independent clauses -- in other words, it joins two clauses that could be sentences. For example:
[SIZE=+2]Mary drives a Mercedes; Joanne drives a Chevrolet.[/SIZE]These two clauses could be separate sentences: "Mary drives a Mercedes. Joanne drives a Chevrolet." In the example above, the relationship is probably CONTRAST; we could also use "but" to make this clear: "Mary drives a Mercedes, but Joanne drives a Chevrolet." When we use a semi-colon, it is often because we want to make the reader think about the relationship for herself. This is useful in many situations, such as when writing cautiously, ironically, or humorously.

Please notice in the verse
Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
We have here 2 commandements. BE NOT DRUNK WITH WINE and BE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT.

But is another word for Rather, instead, etc.
You are placing the word "rather" before the word but which completely mistranslates the verse.

 

I resemble that implication!!! :laugh: :laugh:

And we are haviong our annual church picnic/homecoming this Sunday, too. Praise the Lord, and pass the ham, the beans and the potatoes! :smilewinkgrin:

Ed

 

AMEN Bro!:thumbsup:

 

Just by saying "I believe I have the freedom to consume anything I desire," one does indeed put a stumbling block in front of another. Another who reads such and takes a drink because they too 'have the freedom to consume anything' could easily become a drunkard because of that so-called freedom to consume.
'
By stating one is allowed to drink in moderation, they indeed are putting others on that road to destruction.

 

75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol​

Should Christians really totally abstain from alcoholic drinks? Or does God tell us we can drink moderately?​

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In the 1800’s and early 1900’s the church in America took a bold stand for total abstinence. People read research about the word "wine;" Bible studies showed the truth about alcohol. The result was Prohibition with its great benefits. But the prohibition amendment was repealed, and the church began to weaken its conviction against alcohol. Today some pastors say, "What’s wrong with a six pack? Why get hung up on a little wine at a wedding?"​

The Bible is the same "yesterday, today, and forever." What godly Bible teachers said in the past is true today. Dr. Robert Teachout, A Semitic scholar who, in 1979, wrote his doctorate on The Use of Wine in the Old Testament, stated, "Alcohol is never approved by God in any amount for the obedient Christian." ​

Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, author of Wine in the Bible, 1989, says, Drinking Alcohol is...a moral issue. It is...a transgression of God’s law."​

FACTS TO KNOW​

1) The Bible does teach total abstinence from alcohol. Both the main Hebrew word for wine and the Greek word for wine can mean either fermented grape juice or intoxicating wine. The English word wine originally had two meanings also - unfermented juice or alcoholic drink.​

2) In the Bible, verses to show God approves of wine are speaking about unfermented juice. Verses that expose the evils of wine are speaking about intoxicating wine.​

3) The Bible says alcoholic drink is evil. It is not just the amount one drinks that makes drinking a sin. God condemns the drink itself. (Prov 20:1 KJV) Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.​

4) God does not lead us into evil; He delivers us from it. He does not teach us to practice evil in moderation. Jesus did not make, use, approve, commend, or tell us to use intoxicating wine.​

5) God made man to have fellowship with Him. Alcohol goes directly to the brain, the communication center of the body. It interferes with God’s purpose for mankind.


Signal Press Catalog #3058
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75 WARNINGS​

There is more Scripture condemning the use of alcoholic beverages than will be found on the subjects of lying, adultery, swearing, cheating, hypocrisy, pride, or even blasphemy.​

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1) Genesis 9:20-26 - Noah became drunk; the result was immorality and family trouble.​

2) Genesis 19:30-38 - Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality​

3) Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy.​

4) Numbers 6:3 - The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine.​

5) Deuteronomy 21:20 - A drunken son was stubborn and rebellious.​

6) Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.​

7) Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.​

8) Judges 13:4, 7, 14 - Samson was to be a Nazarite for life. His mother was told not to drink wine or strong drink.​

9) 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.​

10) 1 Samuel 25:32-38 - Nabal died after a drunken spree.​

11) 2 Samuel 11:13 - By getting Uriah drunk, David hoped to cover his sin.​

12) 2 Samuel 13:28-29 - Amnon was drunk when he was killed.​

13) 1 Kings 16:8-10 - The king was drinking himself into drunkenness when he was assassinated​

14) 1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the Israelites.​

15) Esther 1:5-12 - The king gave each one all the drink he wanted. The king was intoxicated when he commanded the queen to come.​

16) Psalm 75:8 - The Lord’s anger is pictured as mixed wine poured out and drunk by the wicked.​

17) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.​

18) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.​

19) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.​

20) Proverbs 23:21 - Drunkenness causes poverty.​

21) Proverbs 23:29-30 - Drinking causes woe, sorrow, fighting, babbling, wounds without cause and red eyes.​

22) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.​

23) Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.​

24) Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.​

25) Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable​

26) Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.​

27) Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.​

28) Proverbs 31:6-7 - Strong drink could be given to those about to perish or those in pain. Better anesthetics are available today.​

29) Ecclesiastes 2:3 - The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not. (Ecclesiastes 12:8)​

30) Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.​

31) Isaiah 5:11-12 - Woe to those who get up early to drink and stay up late at night to get drunk.​

32) Isaiah 5:22 - Woe to "champion" drinkers and "experts" at mixing drinks.​

33) Isaiah 19:14 - Drunken men stagger in their vomit.​

34) Isaiah 22:12-13 - The Israelites choose to drink; their future looks hopeless to them.​

35) Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.​

36) Isaiah 28:1 - God pronounces woe on the drunkards of Ephraim.​

37) Isaiah 28:3 - Proud drunkards shall be trodden down.​

38) Isaiah 28:7 - Priests and prophets stagger and reel from beer and wine, err in vision, and stumble in judgment.​

39) Isaiah 28:8 - Drinkers’ tables are covered with vomit and filth.​

40) Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.​

41) Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.​

42) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.​

43) Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.​

44) Daniel 5:1 - Belshazzar, ruler of Babylon; led his people in drinking.​

45) Daniel 5:2-3 - The king, along with his nobles, wives, and concubines, drank from the goblets which had been taken from God’s temple.​

46) Daniel 5:4 - Drinking wine was combined with praising false gods.​

47) Daniel 5:23 - God sent word to Belshazzar that punishment would be swift for the evil he had committed.​

48) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.​

49) Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking.​

50) Joel 1:5 - Drunkards awake to see God’s judgment.​

51) Joel 3:3 - The enemy is judged for selling girls for wine.​

52) Amos 2:8 - Unrighteous acts of Israel included the drinking of wine which had been taken for the payment of fines.​

53) Amos 2:12 - Israel is condemned for forcing Nazarites to drink wine.​

54) Micah 2:11 - Israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks.​

55) Nahum 1:10 - The drunkards of Nineveh will be destroyed by God.​

56) Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.​

57) Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.​

58) Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame.​

59) Matthew 24:48-51 - A drinking servant is unprepared for his Lord’s return.​

60) Luke 1:15 - John the Baptist drank neither grape juice nor wine.​

61) Luke 12:45 - Christ warned against drunkenness.​

62) Luke 21:34 - Drunkenness will cause a person not to be ready for the Lord’s return.​

63) Romans 13:13 - Do not walk in drunkenness or immorality.​

64) Romans 14:21 - Do not do anything that will hurt your testimony as a believer.​

65) 1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.​

66) 1 Corinthians 6:10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God​

67) Galatians 5:21 - Acts of the sinful nature, such as drunkenness, will prohibit a person from inheriting the kingdom of God.​

68) Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit.​

69) 1 Thessalonians 5:6-7 - Christians are to be alert and self-controlled, belonging to the day. Drunkards belong to the night and darkness.​

70) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.​

71) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.​

72) 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.​

73) Titus 1:7-8 - An overseer is to be disciplined.​

74) Titus 2:2-3 - The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.​

75) 1 Peter 4:3-4 - The past life of drunkenness and carousing has no place in the Christian’s life.


Signal Press Catalog # 3058

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Hello Av1611jim. Let's put this in perspective of what the discussion is about. "Is it wrong to drink wine?" No it is not. Is it wise at certain times. No it is not. Is it O.K. at appropriate times. Yes it is? Is the Christian given the freedom and liberty to do so? Yes they are.

I notice you fail to give quarter on any point, so from a biblical standpoint, I must take issue with condemning those Christians that understand their rights given to them by God, and condemned by some in rejection of His Word. As you judge can you give your authority to do so. What scripture identifies having a drink as a sin? Could having a drink lead to a sin? Of course it could as can just about anything we do lead one to sin. How many Christian's will sin after having one or two drinks? I would say very few, too miniscule to be counted. This is the "official and authoritative count" for all intents and purposes for no one knows. It then becomes a nonissue.

Your approach is to refute the Bible, while you place every Christian that takes a drink at fault for every auto fatality. Times are much different today than in those times, and the Christian must take note, being careful in the "freedom" given them. Much of what you say is so very true as to the deaths that occur, and the damage done, lives ruined, etc. But you have no right to place every Christian that has a glass or two of wine, or even a martini or two in a proper setting, with no plans to drive or be irresponsible in regards to others, into the bottle of your "judgment". We in the Body of Christ have a right to make choices to live as much as possible in peace with Him, and those in Him, while we are on this earth. I'm not here to make any "stumble", but to give perhaps some clarity to our Liberty in Christ while in the flesh.

Are you saying those that defend drinking alcoholic beverages are sinners? Of more importance is to watch what we say for love or hate comes from the heart and our tongue, and not what we put in our stomach." Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man", Matthew 15:11. We can use the "tear jerker" approach, and give statistics all day long, but does this answer the question "Is it wrong to drink wine"? It is no more wrong for the Christian to drink wine than it is to have a car and drive it. A Christian can kill if they have been drinking, or if they haven't been drinking. I'll take the "odds" on the Christians on the road on any given day that have not had anything to drink to have an accident, and will win every time. There are very few Christians that "drink and drive". Take away this fact, and all you are left with is your "judging" wrongly the Christian that takes a drink. You have no biblical proof that to have one or two drinks is a sin.

Can we find one (1) word in the Holy Scriptures that says it is a sin to imbibe of the vine or of strong drink (excepting a Nazarite)?. We are to believe scripture, and not any that say otherwise. In fact in the OT those of Israel that could not get to the Temple on time to offer their tithes, are told to go and spend all that money on what ever their heart desires. The food and drink we intake daily is what keeps us alive, and some of it makes the "heart glad".

I find one thing in discussions as to alcoholic beverages. Most, but not all that judge a brother in Christ that drinks, are themselves non-drinkers. Are these that so judge allowing those that have "Liberty" in Christ to enjoy the "freedom" He gives them? "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died", Romans 14:14-15. We Christians in Christ in our "Liberty" really have our hands tied in matters such as this for the one that sees a clean thing to be unclean, will always believe that which God made clean to be an unclean thing.

"As if… this fellow would sink that low"? Is that what you wish to say? Or, He'll make it for others to drink, but he'll not partake for He said "He would not drink it aga, uh that is to say, uh"; "Well let's just skip what He says and you all listen to me". Christian friend take a deep breath and believe what He tells you……."But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom", Matthew 26:29. Please note Jesus says that generation of "vipers" made distinction between He and John the Baptist, and gives credence to the comparison that it is true that He, Jesus, eat heartedly and drink "much" compared to John. This was not true that He over indulged, for they exaggerated, but He did not correct or accuse them of lying that He did eat more than John the Baptist, and did drink more wine, which a thimble full would be as a "winebibber" against what John the Baptist consumed on a daily basis.

You have the number of those bozos that have a glass of wine to finish off their dinner, thanking and praising God for what little relaxation and joy is offered them in this life. They dodge the bullets all day of the unbelievers for their faith in Christ on the one hand, and on the other here comes those of judgment, equating them with the drunkards, the sluggards, the murders, and the other scum of the earth.

Brotherly love to the "drinkers" and "non-drinkers" in the Body of Christ.

 

More Whine.....

As I suspected, no one is dealing with the passages in Deut. 12 & 14. Also, the moral arguments are in the eyes of the beholder...Alas...not everyone who drinks is a drunkard. I think this topic is very telling as to how one views what the Christian life wholly consists of. Who said Christianity doesn't have a Taliban?!

 

As a point of information, is this actually Part 37, or is that just a smart-alecky remark on a topic that has generated far more heat than light? Just askin'.

Ed

 

Hello. I'm brand new here, so this is just my 2 cents on the subject of alcohol.....I believe that the Bible is clear that we are not to get drunk, but it does not address drinking of alcohol in general. My reasons for not drinking are as follows:

1. As Christians we are not to be stumbling blocks for others.......there is a possibility that someone who knows I am a Christian could see me drinking and it could be a stumbling block for them. I would never want that.

2. The body is the "temple of the Holy Spirit". We are to take care of this temple, as it belongs to the Lord. This applies to a lot of things....alcohol can damage the liver and affects brain cells, no matter how much you drink. Same with overeating, too much caffeine, etc. I do my best to keep my body pure and healthy because it belongs to Jesus.

3. Alcohol is extremely addictive. I have enough family and friends who have trouble with alcoholism that I see how quickly you can go from "just one drink" to a full-blown case of alcoholism. Not worth the risk IMO.

Those are just my reasons for not personally drinking.

 

Radcliffe, welcome to the BB:thumbs:

1. Who exactly, is it a "stumbling block" to? IFB? Legalists? If it's a stumbling block to a believer that knows what the Bible has to say on the issue (drinking is not a sin), the problem is with the believer.

2. The key to this is when you said "..too much..". Too much alcohol, like food (and even water) can damage the body. Alcohol in moderation has health benefits. If we are taking care of our "temples" to the uttmost, we would include a daily glass of wine or beer.

3. You are correct on this one...for some people. But so is sex, games of chance, carbohydrates, coffee, etc....for some people. I'm not sold on the "scientific fact" that all it takes is one drink to turn someone into an alcoholic.

 

I understand that being drunk does effect person ability too think and make decisions, but I can't help but believe that their are a lot of people using alcoholism to justify doing what they want to and saying they were out of control.

If you have a low character and you really want to swear and to treat your family shamfuly do you drink to cover up your evil intensions even though you are not as out of control as you seem.

I believe that alcoholism only magnifies the problems that are already in a persons heart. If you took alcohol away that doesn't mean that the person is already going to act responsibly.

Vicki

 

SNAP! The Vickster hit the nail on the head!

 

As Deuteronomy was addressed (and apparently ignored) in the previous thread, I have copied it from there to be again shown that the wine in Deuteronomy 14 could in no way be alcoholic wine.

Deuteronomy 14:26 26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,


Those proponents of moderation with respect to intoxicating beverages might suggest that this text sanctions and encourages the drinking of beer and alcoholic wine. To be fair, it appears to be so, but this is not the case. In examining this passage we will learn that the book of Deuteronomy furnishes us with a perfect example of the following:

A) a correct understanding of the generic words which are used for "wine" and "strong drink" respectfully.
B) a proper application of the law of context
C) a complete understanding of God's view on the subject of drinking.

Now in returning to the text, we will see that the Bible itself conclusively refutes any suggestions whatsoever that this text endorses the use of alcoholic drinks.

We have already learned in our studies that the words translated "wine" [yayin] and "strong drink" [shekar] here are generic, and may refer to fresh grape juice and a sweet pleasant drink which was unfermented. What kind of beverage is this verse referring to? Since it may be argued that this text can be interpreted according to one's own particular bias, the answer is very simple. Deuteronomy 29:6 explains:

Deuteronomy 29:6 6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.



Here this passage proves that the "wine" and "strong drink" in chapter 14: 26 cannot be the same as that mentioned here! The inspired text later goes on to explain in no uncertain terms exactly what kind of wine the Jews did drink. It reads:

Deuteronomy 32:14 14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.



Here Moses names among the many blessings of the Lord, pure fresh grape juice known as "the blood of the grape" which was highly esteemed.

excerpt from "Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence" by Leighton G. Campbell pp. 91, 92

 

AF Guy,

One thought on the 'if I'm wrong, will it really matter?"...

It very well could matter. Revelation tells us that among those who will find their part in the lake of fire will be 'all liars.'Now that is something that should cause every one who claims to be a christian to delve more deeper into the Word of God to make sure that they are right.

If it is a lie to say 'It is not a sin to drink' because God's Word clearly shows the it is a sin, then according to God's Word, it does matter. As Christians, we are to guard our hearts, our minds, our tongue, and our actions.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:

Matthew 7:21-23 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yes, my friend, it does matter what we think or say.

 

Ok we can read that a widow and deacon are not to drink to much wine. and a Bishop it says not to be given to wine. as under influence of it. Paul told Timothy no longer drink water but drink wine for thy stomachs sake. This wine will kill bacteria in the stomach and grape juice will not.

Two points I would like to make is this. Christ said you do not put new wine in old bottles less the bottle burst and spill the wine. Well I did not understand this until I learned bottles were animal skins. So new skins would stretch as the wine fermented while old animal skins become hard and dried out would burst and not give.

another I did not understand was the wedding when one at the wedding said that he had saved the best for last. the new wine vs. old wine. Well today old wine is considered better, why would new wine be better back then? well its because of the animal skin again. oxygen would slowly seep through the pores of the skins and turn the wine into vinegar. glass bottles were not invented until the mid 1600s

also I believe as unleavened bread represents his sinless body Grape wine represents his blood. The wine is pure like his blood and preserves.

but if it offends thy brother then one should not kill thy brother with it. Should not be used in mix company where some are drinking to excess. But when it comes to communion and for thy stomachs sake then I believe one must use wine.

In our churches we have and Elder that makes the wine his self for communion as our sisters make the bread as well. I think making it yourself is better than buying it because that wine is only used in its place for the purpose of the church.

the ones that condemn the use of wine in its place, i hope your not useing cough syrup. .........JBS