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Wine comes from God but drunkenness from the devil!

Jope

Active Member
Site Supporter
Good for the Reformers and the Pilgrims. I'm not sure who on Baptist Board really cares about that besides you. So again why is it so important to you to tell us all that you are drinking a Mikes?(I doubt you are being paid to do so) What are you looking for?

I like his study. I'm studying in the health care field, and I got a question wrong on a test in regards to this topic. I chose "no alcohol" as the best option, and they marked me wrong :D It's not unhealthy to have one beer a day. There's actually healthy benefits.

"moderate alcohol intake does not reduce LDL [bad] cholesterol, but it does increase HDL [good] cholesterol" (Adams, Holland Jr., Bostwick & King, Pharmacology for Nurses, Canadian Edition, p. 275).​

It helps in the field of heart attacks and cerebrovascular stuff (strokes). Do you drink coffee? Do you ever take tylenol? You're taking drugs then. Same thing as alcohol. That being said I do believe, like evangelist said, that drunkenness is wrong.

I also believe that wine isn't for everyone and a believer shouldn't flaunt his wine drinking in front of others (as per Rom. 14:19-23).

Rom 14 NET
19So then, let us pursue what makes for peace and for building up one another. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. For although all things are clean, it is wrong to cause anyone to stumble by what you eat. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22The faith you have, keep to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not judge himself by what he approves. 23But the man who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not do so from faith, and whatever is not from faith is sin.
Paul is not saying that one ought to abstain from wine, otherwise no believer could eat meat. He IS saying that one ought not to make a brother stumble by his eating and drinking.
 
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blessedwife318

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I like his study. I'm studying in the health care field, and I got a question wrong on a test in regards to this topic. I chose "no alcohol" as the best option, and they marked me wrong :D It's not unhealthy to have one beer a day. There's actually healthy benefits.

"moderate alcohol intake does not reduce LDL [bad] cholesterol, but it does increase HDL [good] cholesterol" (Adams, Holland Jr., Bostwick & King, Pharmacology for Nurses, Canadian Edition, p. 275).​

It helps in the field of heart attacks and cerebrovascular stuff (strokes). Do you drink coffee? Do you ever take tylenol? You're taking drugs then. Same thing as alcohol. That being said I do believe, like evangelist said, that drunkenness is wrong.
Apprenlty you are one that fits into a small group that does care about how people in the past ate and drank. I was a history major and even I find that topic dull, not to mention obvious, as it has only been more recently that drink options have expanded to the hundreds of choices we have today.
And No I don't drink coffee, have never developed a taste for it. As for the rest of your questions you are arguing with someone who doesn't care if people drink or don't drink, that is their choice, and I don't think anyone should have "liberty" imposed on them in a legalistic way.

I also believe that wine isn't for everyone and a believer shouldn't flaunt his wine drinking in front of others (as per Rom. 14:19-23).
Which is why anyone getting on a Christain message board, and proclaiming for all the world to see that they are drinking is a problem. There are too many unknowns for that kind of bold statment, and it very likely is a stumbling block with those who should not drink.

Rom 14 NET
19So then, let us pursue what makes for peace and for building up one another. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. For although all things are clean, it is wrong to cause anyone to stumble by what you eat. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22The faith you have, keep to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not judge himself by what he approves. 23But the man who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not do so from faith, and whatever is not from faith is sin.
Paul is not saying that one ought to abstain from wine, otherwise no believer could eat meat. He IS saying that one ought not to make a brother stumble by his eating and drinking.
And that is what I have been getting at. Why put a stumbling block out there. Why risk sinning against Christ as Paul puts it in 1 Cor 8:12
"Thus, sinning against your brotherse and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble."

That is why I keep asking evangelist why he is telling everyone about his drinking habits. What is he hoping to gain from that, and why is he hoping for it. Those are question he needs to answer because they will give insight into what the issue really is.
 

blessedwife318

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Why would I want too?
But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eatingc in an idol’s temple, will he not be encouraged,d if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. 12Thus, sinning against your brotherse and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
1 Cor 8:9-13

15For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
20Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
Romans 14:15-21
 

evangelist6589

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I like his study. I'm studying in the health care field, and I got a question wrong on a test in regards to this topic. I chose "no alcohol" as the best option, and they marked me wrong :D It's not unhealthy to have one beer a day. There's actually healthy benefits.

"moderate alcohol intake does not reduce LDL [bad] cholesterol, but it does increase HDL [good] cholesterol" (Adams, Holland Jr., Bostwick & King, Pharmacology for Nurses, Canadian Edition, p. 275).​

It helps in the field of heart attacks and cerebrovascular stuff (strokes). Do you drink coffee? Do you ever take tylenol? You're taking drugs then. Same thing as alcohol. That being said I do believe, like evangelist said, that drunkenness is wrong.

I also believe that wine isn't for everyone and a believer shouldn't flaunt his wine drinking in front of others (as per Rom. 14:19-23).

Rom 14 NET
19So then, let us pursue what makes for peace and for building up one another. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. For although all things are clean, it is wrong to cause anyone to stumble by what you eat. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22The faith you have, keep to yourself before God. Blessed is the one who does not judge himself by what he approves. 23But the man who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not do so from faith, and whatever is not from faith is sin.
Paul is not saying that one ought to abstain from wine, otherwise no believer could eat meat. He IS saying that one ought not to make a brother stumble by his eating and drinking.

The real question is who on this board have I made stumble over this issue?
 

evangelist6589

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.
Romans 14:3

I guess it works both ways. Teetotalers judge me and I judge them. We should not be like this.
 

blessedwife318

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The real question is who on this board have I made stumble over this issue?
Why do you need to know who. I just looked and there are currently 53 guest looking at BB. You don't know anything about those 53 people. You also don't know who in the future might be looking at these post in the future. One only has to look at the stats to know its a mathematical certainty that someone is going to be on this site that has a problem with Alcoholism given that 1 in 13 Americans struggles with Alcoholism.
The real question is why is it so important for you to tell everyone about your drinking. What are you hoping to gain from doing so, and why are you hoping to gain that?
 

Jope

Active Member
Site Supporter
Apprenlty you are one that fits into a small group that does care about how people in the past ate and drank. I was a history major and even I find that topic dull, not to mention obvious, as it has only been more recently that drink options have expanded to the hundreds of choices we have today.

Nope. Why did you assume that? I went to bible school and we covered this topic.

"wine in Homer's day was twenty parts water and one part wine (Odyssey 9.208-9). Pliny referred to wine as eight parts water and one part wine (National History 14.6.54). According to Aristophanes, it was stronger: three parts water and two parts wine. Other classical Greek writers spoke of other mixtures: Euenos - three parts water, one part wine; Hesiod - three to one, water to wine; Alexis - four to one; Diocles and Anacreon - two to one; and Ion - three to one. The average was about three or four parts of water to one part of wine" (Normal Geisler, A Christian Perspective on Wine Drinking, Bibliotheca Sacra, January-March 1982).​

However, I did some more study so as to remain unbiased, and I found out, from either Danker & Bauer's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG for short) or Kittel and Friedrich's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT for short), that alcoholic drinks are the same ratio today. What really is the issue is when abuse happens, ie, when drunkenness happens. Revmitchell says getting buzzed is drunk. I suppose it's up for debate: what grounds does he have for that, can it be supported, etc. I'm not necessarily saying I agree or disagree with him either, I'm more interested in what scripture says about the issue.

That is why I keep asking evangelist why he is telling everyone about his drinking habits. What is he hoping to gain from that, and why is he hoping for it. Those are question he needs to answer because they will give insight into what the issue really is.

How do you propose we go about doing a bible study about alcohol?
 
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blessedwife318

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nope. Why did you assume that? I went to bible school and we covered this topic.
Why do I assume what? that you found what the puritans drank interesting? because you said you liked this topic. That there are more drink choices? because there are. Soft Drinks for example date back to the late 1700s making them new compared to what the puritans (early 1600s) had as options.

"wine in Homer's day was twenty parts water and one part wine (Odyssey 9.208-9). Pliny referred to wine as eight parts water and one part wine (National History 14.6.54). According to Aristophanes, it was stronger: three parts water and two parts wine. Other classical Greek writers spoke of other mixtures: Euenos - three parts water, one part wine; Hesiod - three to one, water to wine; Alexis - four to one; Diocles and Anacreon - two to one; and Ion - three to one. The average was about three or four parts of water to one part of wine" (Normal Geisler, A Christian Perspective on Wine Drinking, Bibliotheca Sacra, January-March 1982).​

However, I did some more study so as to remain unbiased, and I found out, from either Danker & Bauer's A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG for short) or Kittel and Friedrich's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT for short), that alcoholic drinks are the same ratio today. What really is the issue is when abuse happens, ie, when drunkenness happens. Revmitchell says getting buzzed is drunk. I suppose it's up for debate: what grounds does he have for that, can it be supported, etc.
what does any of this have to do with my posting. I've made it clear that I don't care if people drink or don't drink, I just don't want people to impose their legalistic standards (goes both ways) on others, nor do I think people should put a huge stumbling block out there for all the world to see.
Maybe you should quote Rev and see what he says about his quote.

How do you propose we go about doing a bible study about alcohol?
By looking at what the Bible says about alcohol.
 

Jope

Active Member
Site Supporter
Why do I assume what? that you found what the puritans drank interesting?

Huh? Where did the puritans come from? I quoted classical sources. You assumed that I was not concerned with how people in the past ate and drank, I responded with classical sources.

because you said you liked this topic. That there are more drink choices? because there are. Soft Drinks for example date back to the late 1700s making them new compared to what the puritans (early 1600s) had as options.

But not even evangelist is talking about puritans, at least not in the OP. Did I miss something?

By looking at what the Bible says about alcohol.

Soo no preacher can ever preach on the topic of alcohol because some might stumble? No bible study can ever be conducted publicly because someone might read the bible and find out that it's ok to drink if your conscience isn't defiled? Doesn't make sense to me, sorry.
 

blessedwife318

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Huh? Where did the puritans come from?
The Puritans came from the post that mention Pilgrims as I have always had a bad habit of using those terms interchangeably.
Eating dinner as I type. Think I am gonna stop by the alcohol store and pick up a pack. John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox and yes even the Pilgrims loved their drinks. Was reading today about the Pilgrims love for beer and wine. Can you believe it that when they had thanksgiving they drank wine?

Why not? All the Reformers believed that wine comes from God, but drunkenness from the devil. When the Pilgrims had thanksgiving for the first time they were open about their love for wine and brought plenty of it to the feast.

You assumed that I was not concerned with how people in the past ate and drank, I responded with classical sources.
No I said you are one of the few people that ARE concerned with how people in the past ate and drank. I assume that is a small subset, as even I as a history major find that a dull topic, and saying that the reformers or the pilgrims drank is like saying water is wet.



But not even evangelist is talking about puritans, at least not in the OP. Did I miss something?
See above quotes where he is using the pilgrims (I misspoke because of my bad habit by using the term puritan) as justification for flaunting his liberty around.

Soo no preacher can ever preach on the topic of alcohol because some might stumble? No bible study can ever be conducted publicly because someone might read the bible and find out that it's ok to drink if your conscience isn't defiled? Doesn't make sense to me, sorry.
I have no idea where you would even get such an idea from me saying that the way to study the Bible is to study the Bible (Who knew that was such a revolutionary concept) Your straw man doesn't make sense to me either but you are the one who came up with that straw man so I can't help you there.
 

evangelist6589

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Site Supporter
Also from the OP:

Yes the puritans as well as the Pilgrims drank alcohol. They in fact loved their beer and wine.

All my ideas taken from the book "Drinking with Calvin and Luther a history of alcohol in the church by Jim West.
 

Jope

Active Member
Site Supporter
No I said you are one of the few people that ARE concerned with how people in the past ate and drank.

Yea I guess you did say that. Sorry bout that :D:rolleyes:

I think I was confused as to how you came to the conclusion that I was concerned with how people in the past ate and drank, and maybe that's how I thought you were saying that.
 

blessedwife318

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yea I guess you did say that. Sorry bout that :D:rolleyes:

I think I was confused as to how you came to the conclusion that I was concerned with how people in the past ate and drank, and maybe that's how I thought you were saying that.

No worries, when you are reading a bunch of post it can get confusing.
 
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